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Thread: Surprisingly bad units
Originally Posted by Swordmaster:
Having gotten my arse kicked by armoured elephants recently, I withdraw my earlier assertion. They just wouldn't die!
tell me about it... those armored elephants cost a fortune, but having faced them myself, I can attest that normal skirmishers will not do the usual trick against them. On the same subject, I lost several crushing defeats against Pyrrhos at the beginning of my current KH campaign because he kept flanking me out the forest with the elephants. When I finally killed the bastards in a bad loss (for me -I rarely lose) I thought that it was worthwhile trade. I sent a spy to Pyrrhos' army and the elephants had all completely healed from the battle... He had a full complement! Bad enough that they can be unkillable, but worse that they are resurrected from the dead!Having gotten my arse kicked by armoured elephants recently, I withdraw my earlier assertion. They just wouldn't die!
The Camillian Triarii ain't that good, I usually find them too expensive early on in the campaign and I much rather prefer the Camillian Principes, which got Pilums to throw before a charge, spears to skewer cavalry with and swords for infantry.
Originally Posted by Jaertecken:
I much rather prefer the Camillian Principes, which got Pilums to throw before a charge, spears to skewer cavalry with and swords for infantry.
There are no units with three weapons in EB1 (impossible with the RTW engine). The Camillan Principes have underhand spears as secondary weapon and are much weaker in close combat than the Camillan Triarii, who are by far the best unit for the Romans in that periode beside the Extraordinarii.I much rather prefer the Camillian Principes, which got Pilums to throw before a charge, spears to skewer cavalry with and swords for infantry.
Originally Posted by Jaertecken:
The Camillian Triarii ain't that good, I usually find them too expensive early on in the campaign and I much rather prefer the Camillian Principes, which got Pilums to throw before a charge, spears to skewer cavalry with and swords for infantry.
I have to disagree with you on that one. They proved to be the invaluable against both Carthage and the gauls. They can hold the line long enough for a flanking move or something of that sort. They are the only capable unit available early on fpr the romans. The rest have their pilums and after that it's rout time. And after a few hard battles they can be retrained to become invinsible. They can't be bought straight away since they are a tad expensive, but after one or two conquered cities they should find a place in your army.The Camillian Triarii ain't that good, I usually find them too expensive early on in the campaign and I much rather prefer the Camillian Principes, which got Pilums to throw before a charge, spears to skewer cavalry with and swords for infantry.
Originally Posted by Irishmafia2020:
Median medium Cavalry - I thought that Media was supposed to be the place where the Persian Cavalry tradition flowered. These Cav are nothing but a clone of the generic "Asian" medium Cavalry, and they are weak compared to other Eastern Cav units.
The other way around, the other way around. The Median Medium Cavalry is better cavalry for the same cost. They're certainly not brilliant (get Kinsmen instead if you want to do real melee) but certainly a good notch better than other 'medium' cavalry in the regions. You'll notice when one unit routs: they tend to regroup much quicker compared to the Asiatikoi.Median medium Cavalry - I thought that Media was supposed to be the place where the Persian Cavalry tradition flowered. These Cav are nothing but a clone of the generic "Asian" medium Cavalry, and they are weak compared to other Eastern Cav units.
Originally Posted by :
Baktrian Horse Archers (I won't try to spell their Greek name) - This is a cool unit of armored Baktrian archer cavalry that that nation developed in response to the various nomadic threats that they faced. They are expensive and, and for the cost you can recruit lots of disposable Dahae riders instead.
They are the settled equivalent of noble horse-archers, or rather Catraphract style horsearchers; with slightly less armour than the latter but a good deal more than the former. Their side-arm makes for decent heavy cavalry to do melee with, though.Baktrian Horse Archers (I won't try to spell their Greek name) - This is a cool unit of armored Baktrian archer cavalry that that nation developed in response to the various nomadic threats that they faced. They are expensive and, and for the cost you can recruit lots of disposable Dahae riders instead.
Originally Posted by :
Tarantine Elite Cavalry - Why do these guys have "elite" in their name? Am I missing something? The Greek armored Skirmisher Cav are generally better...
The Greek armoured skirmisher cavalry have the "Hetairoi" bit in their name though. The Tarentines are certainly not elite as in "best you can get", but in their case, I guess 'elite' should be taken to mean 'widely-sought-after'. So much so, that "Tarentine" became the name of their particular fighting style (going by what the historians on the team wrote about 'em, here); in any case for that reason you'll find them available as mercs in the Levant as well. Hetairoi Aspidophoroi are elite in the other sense, as in "best you can get".Tarantine Elite Cavalry - Why do these guys have "elite" in their name? Am I missing something? The Greek armored Skirmisher Cav are generally better...
Originally Posted by :
Indo-Iranian Heavy Cavalry - these guys are portrayed as being one of the great Elite cavalry units in the game. Whoever controls Gandahara in Northern India can recruit them. They are supposed to mix the Equestrian tradition of the Steppe with the superior metallurgy of India to make an UBer Heavy Cav. They are very expensive, and very hard to come by. For all of that, I came away with the impression that the Indo-Iranian Med Cavalry was generally a superior force. They are more widely available, and have excellent stats for 1/2 the price. Once again, I found myself being disappointed in an elite unit when I compared them to their local peers.
Haven't used those guys much, can't say much there.Indo-Iranian Heavy Cavalry - these guys are portrayed as being one of the great Elite cavalry units in the game. Whoever controls Gandahara in Northern India can recruit them. They are supposed to mix the Equestrian tradition of the Steppe with the superior metallurgy of India to make an UBer Heavy Cav. They are very expensive, and very hard to come by. For all of that, I came away with the impression that the Indo-Iranian Med Cavalry was generally a superior force. They are more widely available, and have excellent stats for 1/2 the price. Once again, I found myself being disappointed in an elite unit when I compared them to their local peers.
I dont like Casse CHARIOTS! i hate those things!
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Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios:
The other way around, the other way around. The Median Medium Cavalry is better cavalry for the same cost. They're certainly not brilliant (get Kinsmen instead if you want to do real melee) but certainly a good notch better than other 'medium' cavalry in the regions. You'll notice when one unit routs: they tend to regroup much quicker compared to the Asiatikoi.
I stand corrected. When I closely inspected the unit documentation, I saw that the Median cav have 1 point more in defensive skill and 1 point more in morale, making them slightly better than the Asian medium cav.The other way around, the other way around. The Median Medium Cavalry is better cavalry for the same cost. They're certainly not brilliant (get Kinsmen instead if you want to do real melee) but certainly a good notch better than other 'medium' cavalry in the regions. You'll notice when one unit routs: they tend to regroup much quicker compared to the Asiatikoi.
Originally Posted by :
They are the settled equivalent of noble horse-archers, or rather Catraphract style horsearchers; with slightly less armour than the latter but a good deal more than the former. Their side-arm makes for decent heavy cavalry to do melee with, though.
Yes I agree that this unit is actually a good, useful unit rather than "surprisingly bad". I placed it on my list only because i think that their cost is high. I use this unit myself, and they are able to do double duty as a tough melee medium cavalry as well as being horse archers with staying power. My comment is based upon a campaign in which i would recruit a lot of Dahae riders because they are cheap and effective. It was much more cost effective to use the riders, which made the Baktrian HA's much less useful than they should have been in my mind.They are the settled equivalent of noble horse-archers, or rather Catraphract style horsearchers; with slightly less armour than the latter but a good deal more than the former. Their side-arm makes for decent heavy cavalry to do melee with, though.
Originally Posted by :
The Greek armoured skirmisher cavalry have the "Hetairoi" bit in their name though. The Tarentines are certainly not elite as in "best you can get", but in their case, I guess 'elite' should be taken to mean 'widely-sought-after'. So much so, that "Tarentine" became the name of their particular fighting style (going by what the historians on the team wrote about 'em, here); in any case for that reason you'll find them available as mercs in the Levant as well. Hetairoi Aspidophoroi are elite in the other sense, as in "best you can get".
Good explanation. If the Hetairoi Aspidophoroi are supposed to be the better cav unit, then I was not making a fair comparison. I was just so excited to capture Rhegion and build up my barracks so that I would have exclusive access to an "elite" western cavalry unit, when they turned out be just decent rather than truly bad@ss, I was disappointed. That is why i put them on my list.The Greek armoured skirmisher cavalry have the "Hetairoi" bit in their name though. The Tarentines are certainly not elite as in "best you can get", but in their case, I guess 'elite' should be taken to mean 'widely-sought-after'. So much so, that "Tarentine" became the name of their particular fighting style (going by what the historians on the team wrote about 'em, here); in any case for that reason you'll find them available as mercs in the Levant as well. Hetairoi Aspidophoroi are elite in the other sense, as in "best you can get".
Originally Posted by Limbs:
The rest have their pilums and after that it's rout time. .
The rest have their pilums and after that it's rout time. .
I find that a very odd statement, the only time I can ever remember my Camillan Hastati or Principes routing is after the general has been killed, and even then they last quite a while. My Camillan Hastati in particular get whittled down fairly quickly but I have never had a problem with their morale. Then again I never allow my units to become isolated, perhaps if they were up against better opposition on their own they might rout quicker.
They're not elite, but Roman equites are rubbish.
Not that I have an issue with it, Roman cavalry wasn't very good historically. But they're not fast, don't have good stamina, and aren't really very good in melee either. Which makes them no good at any battlefield role, really.
So true :(
I only use these units for hunting skirmishers and running down defeated troops...
Not that I have an issue with it, Roman cavalry wasn't very good historically. But they're not fast, don't have good stamina, and aren't really very good in melee either. Which makes them no good at any battlefield role, really.
So true :(
I only use these units for hunting skirmishers and running down defeated troops...
Originally Posted by johnhughthom:
I find that a very odd statement, the only time I can ever remember my Camillan Hastati or Principes routing is after the general has been killed, and even then they last quite a while. My Camillan Hastati in particular get whittled down fairly quickly but I have never had a problem with their morale. Then again I never allow my units to become isolated, perhaps if they were up against better opposition on their own they might rout quicker.
Indeed, I was a little surprised at the statement. Properly supported in the checkerboard formation, Camillian troops very rarely rout, as long as the general is still alive. They may not have the morale of Polybian troops, but they're not flaky by any means.I find that a very odd statement, the only time I can ever remember my Camillan Hastati or Principes routing is after the general has been killed, and even then they last quite a while. My Camillan Hastati in particular get whittled down fairly quickly but I have never had a problem with their morale. Then again I never allow my units to become isolated, perhaps if they were up against better opposition on their own they might rout quicker.
I too often had big losses amongst my hastati, but they'd always hold their ground.
Originally Posted by Dutchhoplite:
I only use these units for hunting skirmishers and running down defeated troops...
I actually never bother recruiting them, personally, I think the bodyguard around a younger FM is a better representation of equites. It's also a smaller unit, generally, which again I think is a better reflection than the recruitable one.Originally Posted by :
They're not elite, but Roman equites are rubbish.
So true :(They're not elite, but Roman equites are rubbish.
I only use these units for hunting skirmishers and running down defeated troops...
I forgot about these guys before, the Iberi Curisi. They are classed as medium cavalry, but are on the low end of the stats to be medium cavalry, meaning most other medium cavalry and up will be able to beat them in a fight. So if they are going to attack anyone, need it to either be light cav/inf or outnumber the enemy. Almost all other light/medium cavalry is much more useful, either having missiles so they can harass the enemy flanks and break up their formation before chasing routers, or having lances so they can charge the enemy to rout them. The ones that don't, like the Curisi normally have higher stats so they can kill the lancers and missile guys, but have better stats. For the famous elite Iberian cavalry, they are sub-par at best.
Somebody here mentioned Brihentin. They are not exceptional, but I have very good experience with them. As the Roman cavalry is weak, Brihentin works wonders on them. I used them as Roman FM killers, when fighting on swords in cav vs. cav fights Romans fall like sheep (most of my enemies as a Celtic player were Roman armies). And when charging, Brihentin could rout enemy forces and are good against gaesatae. In the no-cataphract west, they are the best cav. aviable (have not tried German elites yet).
Originally Posted by Fondor_Yards:
I forgot about these guys before, the Iberi Curisi. They are classed as medium cavalry, but are on the low end of the stats to be medium cavalry, meaning most other medium cavalry and up will be able to beat them in a fight. So if they are going to attack anyone, need it to either be light cav/inf or outnumber the enemy. Almost all other light/medium cavalry is much more useful, either having missiles so they can harass the enemy flanks and break up their formation before chasing routers, or having lances so they can charge the enemy to rout them. The ones that don't, like the Curisi normally have higher stats so they can kill the lancers and missile guys, but have better stats. For the famous elite Iberian cavalry, they are sub-par at best.
Curisi are actually quite a good light cavalry force for harrassing infantry and countering enemy light troops and skirmisher cavalry.I forgot about these guys before, the Iberi Curisi. They are classed as medium cavalry, but are on the low end of the stats to be medium cavalry, meaning most other medium cavalry and up will be able to beat them in a fight. So if they are going to attack anyone, need it to either be light cav/inf or outnumber the enemy. Almost all other light/medium cavalry is much more useful, either having missiles so they can harass the enemy flanks and break up their formation before chasing routers, or having lances so they can charge the enemy to rout them. The ones that don't, like the Curisi normally have higher stats so they can kill the lancers and missile guys, but have better stats. For the famous elite Iberian cavalry, they are sub-par at best.
Lucanian Infantry
They have small shields and crappy armour so they die in droves. Only have 160 men per unit. Their unit description describes them as a peltest unit but they only carry 2 javelins. Every unit in Italy walks all over these guys.
They have small shields and crappy armour so they die in droves. Only have 160 men per unit. Their unit description describes them as a peltest unit but they only carry 2 javelins. Every unit in Italy walks all over these guys.
Originally Posted by strategos alexandros:
Curisi are actually quite a good light cavalry force for harrassing infantry and countering enemy light troops and skirmisher cavalry.
Exactly, as medium cavalry they fail, you might as well be using Iberi Equites Caetrati for that since they are cheaper and have javelins too.Curisi are actually quite a good light cavalry force for harrassing infantry and countering enemy light troops and skirmisher cavalry.
Originally Posted by Jaertecken:
The Camillian Triarii ain't that good, I usually find them too expensive early on in the campaign and I much rather prefer the Camillian Principes, which got Pilums to throw before a charge, spears to skewer cavalry with and swords for infantry.
The Camillian Triarii ain't that good, I usually find them too expensive early on in the campaign and I much rather prefer the Camillian Principes, which got Pilums to throw before a charge, spears to skewer cavalry with and swords for infantry.
Are you kidding me????
These guys were the only ones that kept the Aedui from taking Bononia when i was transitioning to Polybian legions. They're the only Camillian unit (that i know of) that can stand up to the Gaesatae long enough for me to get skirmishers/cavalry behind them. 
On that note, Now that i can't use them anymore, what Polybian Era Infantry can combat the Gaesatae? Are Polybian Triarii good enough or are the Polybian Principes better suited for the job?
Originally Posted by AlexanderSextus:
Are you kidding me????These guys were the only ones that kept the Aedui from taking Bononia when i was transitioning to Polybian legions. They're the only Camillian unit (that i know of) that can stand up to the Gaesatae long enough for me to get skirmishers/cavalry behind them.
On that note, Now that i can't use them anymore, what Polybian Era Infantry can combat the Gaesatae? Are Polybian Triarii good enough or are the Polybian Principes better suited for the job?
I'd say ExtraordinariiAre you kidding me????
These guys were the only ones that kept the Aedui from taking Bononia when i was transitioning to Polybian legions. They're the only Camillian unit (that i know of) that can stand up to the Gaesatae long enough for me to get skirmishers/cavalry behind them. On that note, Now that i can't use them anymore, what Polybian Era Infantry can combat the Gaesatae? Are Polybian Triarii good enough or are the Polybian Principes better suited for the job?
Originally Posted by Olaf The Great:
I'd say Extraordinarii
id say triariiI'd say Extraordinarii
pedits tire out too fast for my liking
hell one battle
i lost 3/4 of my hastati and principles to3 reformed pikeman,hyspistia, elite peltastai
they saved my ass taking out all of the peltast,reformed,hetairo, everything
:)
worse united ever...
id say the..
ah yes
who would love the german levy sperman
totally hate them
easy to tire
no armor
killed by every troops that has missles
1 unit rout, everybody routs
:S
I would say pelt the hell out of the Gaesatae with whatever you have, then pin them down with Triarii and get your Principes to attack them from behind.
For some reason I have a bad experience with the WARGONEZ, they just seem to die like flies and are expensive as hell.
Jumping into the Iberian Curisi conversation - IF I were to peg one Iberian/Lusotannan unit as suprisingly weak for what it is, it would be these guys. They simply don't handle combat AFTER the charge well. For your money, Iberi Equites Caetrati are a better bet. The Iberian Curisi do - however - excel at countering enemy cav skirmishers.
I suppose the question always is - not which unit is bad per se - but have you (as General) figured out HOW to use that unit to the best of it's ability and - more pointedly - does it fit into your overall army.
I suppose the question always is - not which unit is bad per se - but have you (as General) figured out HOW to use that unit to the best of it's ability and - more pointedly - does it fit into your overall army.
Originally Posted by The General:
I agree with this.
You have got to be joking. Have you read my Lusitann AAR? These guys completely obliterate everything on the battlefield. Their charge is incredible. It is the only reason I have won battles against Kart-Hadast. I charged them down a hill into a unit of kart-Hadast Bodyguards and they killed everyone in the charge! I have used them to bulldoze the rear of a unit trying to flank my main battle line. My real pride is slamming into the rear of some elite African Pikemen, causing them to route. I say all this but there is a word of warning. Do not use them to pursue fleeing enemies. You also have to give them time to rest between charges. You can't just move them all over the place. You have to use their incredible weight and momentum appropriately. Even if the first charge does not cause a rout the second or third is guaranteed to. There is nothing I have encountered in the Western part of the map that even comes close. I mix some medium cavalry with them so that when the enemy flees I send the med cav after the broken enemy and rest my brutes for another go at the enemies assI agree with this.
Originally Posted by Olaf The Great:
For some reason I have a bad experience with the WARGONEZ, they just seem to die like flies and are expensive as hell.
Reserve them for enemy bodyguards. Suddenly they're pretty badass. Missile fire is pain, though.For some reason I have a bad experience with the WARGONEZ, they just seem to die like flies and are expensive as hell.
Oh and the Sacred band phalanx is pretty bad too, they're swords are awful compared to the Liby-Pheonician unit, and they have AP axes and the exact same stats.
Most of the bad units are the cheap and nasty ones that we expect to be. Like Greek archers or Celtic levies.
To my mind everything has its place if used well, but there are some troops that are suprisingly weak or inefficient in comparison to others around them. Top of that list for me is Iberian Medium Infantry as they are only marginally better than the Light Infantry for a lot bigger cost and are the same price as the Heavy Infantry which are stronger statswise.
Again, any type of artillery is rubbish value for money - and there are some pretty useless ship types out there as well, starting with the Trireme.
To my mind everything has its place if used well, but there are some troops that are suprisingly weak or inefficient in comparison to others around them. Top of that list for me is Iberian Medium Infantry as they are only marginally better than the Light Infantry for a lot bigger cost and are the same price as the Heavy Infantry which are stronger statswise.
Again, any type of artillery is rubbish value for money - and there are some pretty useless ship types out there as well, starting with the Trireme.
I don't know if it's been built into the mod/game, but when the pirate fleets that was docked for decades of france deicded to sweep through the med, I sent my massive fleets of Quinqrieme and Quadriemes to defeat them and low and behold my Navies were sent to the bottom of the sea. Then when my backup fleets of Triremes and liburnes came they managed to hand the pirates their a**es to them. And then the greatest shock, a pentecontarii or whatevers it's called and a trireme defeat 10:1 odds to win....and then a larger fleet came for revenge which annoyed me.
For that reason I suggest Quadremes and Quinqremes. Giant wastes of money. You'd be better of with liburnes which seem to cut through any fleet and are half the upkeep and quicker to build.
For that reason I suggest Quadremes and Quinqremes. Giant wastes of money. You'd be better of with liburnes which seem to cut through any fleet and are half the upkeep and quicker to build.
Originally Posted by We shall fwee...Wodewick:
I don't know if it's been built into the mod/game, but when the pirate fleets that was docked for decades of france deicded to sweep through the med, I sent my massive fleets of Quinqrieme and Quadriemes to defeat them and low and behold my Navies were sent to the bottom of the sea. Then when my backup fleets of Triremes and liburnes came they managed to hand the pirates their a**es to them. And then the greatest shock, a pentecontarii or whatevers it's called and a trireme defeat 10:1 odds to win....and then a larger fleet came for revenge which annoyed me.
For that reason I suggest Quadremes and Quinqremes. Giant wastes of money. You'd be better of with liburnes which seem to cut through any fleet and are half the upkeep and quicker to build.
I guarantee that's more a feature of your campaign difficulty (which skews auto-calc) than the quality of the ships.I don't know if it's been built into the mod/game, but when the pirate fleets that was docked for decades of france deicded to sweep through the med, I sent my massive fleets of Quinqrieme and Quadriemes to defeat them and low and behold my Navies were sent to the bottom of the sea. Then when my backup fleets of Triremes and liburnes came they managed to hand the pirates their a**es to them. And then the greatest shock, a pentecontarii or whatevers it's called and a trireme defeat 10:1 odds to win....and then a larger fleet came for revenge which annoyed me.
For that reason I suggest Quadremes and Quinqremes. Giant wastes of money. You'd be better of with liburnes which seem to cut through any fleet and are half the upkeep and quicker to build.
remember liburines and those other ships were made by wrecked pirate ships and remade 2 be superior
in the text it describes them as wrecked pirate ships converted to hunt pirates
so usually it does its juob
quinquiremes and quadririmes are just giant battle rams that can own any conventional ship
pirate ships arent conventional btw XD
in the text it describes them as wrecked pirate ships converted to hunt pirates
so usually it does its juob
quinquiremes and quadririmes are just giant battle rams that can own any conventional ship
pirate ships arent conventional btw XD
dahae skirmisher calvary i think is pretty awful. limited ammo and horrible at melee. also median medium calvary. you'll be far better off using prodomoi and indo-iranians instead. also don't like rhodians slingers cause thy're hard to replace and expensive. oh, and theurophoi become useless once the game goes on for sometime. they can't really hold a line and isn't too good at flanking, which should be their speciality. i found out that a unit of levy hoplites can actually break them in battle, which shouldn't have happened. also chariots are destructive but easy to kill. learny that the hard way against parthia.
In fairness to Thureophoroi, they can hold a flank. Note, not the centre of the line, but the flank.
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