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Thread: Surprisingly bad units
I cannot disagree strongly enough against the inclusion of Thessalian Heavy Cav. They are just simply immense. I've only fought about 10 battles with them, and already they have 6 experience. AP with moth primary andd secondary, fast like a bullet, and have a truly immense charge.
Just excellent.
Just excellent.
Originally Posted by Che Roriniho:
I cannot disagree strongly enough against the inclusion of Thessalian Heavy Cav. They are just simply immense. I've only fought about 10 battles with them, and already they have 6 experience. AP with moth primary andd secondary, fast like a bullet, and have a truly immense charge.
Just excellent.
I've found Thrakian Prodromoi are much better. Don't tire after two charges. Same AP primary and secondary. Only difference is in armour, which doesn't really matter if you're not getting caught in melee.I cannot disagree strongly enough against the inclusion of Thessalian Heavy Cav. They are just simply immense. I've only fought about 10 battles with them, and already they have 6 experience. AP with moth primary andd secondary, fast like a bullet, and have a truly immense charge.
Just excellent.
Originally Posted by Havok.:
I dont like Casse CHARIOTS! i hate those things!
><'
I absolutely love them. I have won some beautiful heroic victories with nothing but 2 Casse FM. Don't drive them into your enemy; tire him first, then drive them through the enemy. Repeatedly.I dont like Casse CHARIOTS! i hate those things!
><'
Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius:
I've found Thrakian Prodromoi are much better. Don't tire after two charges. Same AP primary and secondary. Only difference is in armour, which doesn't really matter if you're not getting caught in melee.
Thrakian Prodromoi's secondary sword isn't ap, just a good old regular one.I've found Thrakian Prodromoi are much better. Don't tire after two charges. Same AP primary and secondary. Only difference is in armour, which doesn't really matter if you're not getting caught in melee.
Originally Posted by strategos roma:
also don't like rhodians slingers cause thy're hard to replace and expensive.
What? Rhodes is basically THE center of the map, it's good which ever way you start invading. And they have the highest range of ANY missile unit at 224. The only thing with more range is artillery. Combine that with 4 ap attack and they destroy everything, they are more then worth the cost.also don't like rhodians slingers cause thy're hard to replace and expensive.
yeah, but when you're playing as the romans and trying to expand into persia, then retraining them becomes a problem.
I'm using them as my missile units in my Pontus campaign, in my armies fighting in the same area as you, without any real problems. After healing they normally take few to no causalities. Even if you do, simply march coast and ship them back home with a small navy. If your admirals are decent at all they should be back in Syria by the end of the year.
One of the worst units ever is the Pontus mercenary spearmen - weak, low attack, low armor, and fairly expensive to train/upkeep.
But I still use them anyways. Why? Because there aren't any other 'plentiful' mercenaries available in those regions, and I need all the troops I can get to beef up my ranks in order to fight off the endless waves of
the silver death. >_<
Thus, basically every unit in EB has its purpose.
But I still use them anyways. Why? Because there aren't any other 'plentiful' mercenaries available in those regions, and I need all the troops I can get to beef up my ranks in order to fight off the endless waves of
the silver death. >_<
Thus, basically every unit in EB has its purpose.
Originally Posted by strategos roma:
yeah, but when you're playing as the romans and trying to expand into persia, then retraining them becomes a problem.
They're missile units. If you loose any, you're not using them right. They outrafge anything, so they shouldn't be hit my missiles, and getting them caught in melee is silly frankly.yeah, but when you're playing as the romans and trying to expand into persia, then retraining them becomes a problem.
Hm. Not really "bad" per se, but I don't use Thorakitai that much. I usually prefer Thureophoroi, since they can fulfill the same role in my military doctrine (flanking, guarding flanks, street slaughter) quite as good and cost less. Thorakitai are excellent for storming or defending walls and the above mentioned roles, but I was a bit disapointed that they did not seem to hold lines that much better than Thureophoroi, which was what I planned to use them for (imitation legionaires if you will).
Apart from that... there are no real suprisingly disappointments that come to my mind.
Apart from that... there are no real suprisingly disappointments that come to my mind.
These guys are quite possibly the worst unit I have ever used. When it says Phalanx in the name, I expect them to use a Phalanx, especially when it says they have 'longer spears', and use 'the latest technology'. Lost Arpi because of these.
they once did have a phalanx back in earlier builds
what i recommend with these is to use them as medium spearmen/infantry since they WILL switch to swords on contact but actaully quite decent against calvalry, just make sure u got some hoplitai of some sort
what i recommend with these is to use them as medium spearmen/infantry since they WILL switch to swords on contact but actaully quite decent against calvalry, just make sure u got some hoplitai of some sort
Originally Posted by teh1337tim:
they once did have a phalanx back in earlier builds
Which is why I restored this unit to its former they once did have a phalanx back in earlier builds
Originally Posted by Tollheit:
Which is why I restored this unit to its formerglory version in my game...
How did you do this?Which is why I restored this unit to its former
First, I made a backup of EDU (I hope I did, just in case).
Then I downloaded Crimson Editor and used it to edit the entry for greek_infantry_iphikratous_hoplitai and greek_infantry_misthophoroi_hoplitai in EB's EDU file, most importantly by adding ", phalanx" to the formation line. You may have to change the EDU file in "sp game edu backup" or "data"; IIRC I had to change the former without Ferromancer's installer and the latter with Ferromancer's installer.
Then I downloaded Crimson Editor and used it to edit the entry for greek_infantry_iphikratous_hoplitai and greek_infantry_misthophoroi_hoplitai in EB's EDU file, most importantly by adding ", phalanx" to the formation line. You may have to change the EDU file in "sp game edu backup" or "data"; IIRC I had to change the former without Ferromancer's installer and the latter with Ferromancer's installer.
Originally Posted by Tollheit:
First, I made a backup of EDU (I hope I did, just in case).
Then I downloaded Crimson Editor and used it to edit the entry for greek_infantry_iphikratous_hoplitai and greek_infantry_misthophoroi_hoplitai in EB's EDU file, most importantly by adding ", phalanx" to the formation line. You may have to change the EDU file in "sp game edu backup" or "data"; IIRC I had to change the former without Ferromancer's installer and the latter with Ferromancer's installer.
Ok, ta.First, I made a backup of EDU (I hope I did, just in case).
Then I downloaded Crimson Editor and used it to edit the entry for greek_infantry_iphikratous_hoplitai and greek_infantry_misthophoroi_hoplitai in EB's EDU file, most importantly by adding ", phalanx" to the formation line. You may have to change the EDU file in "sp game edu backup" or "data"; IIRC I had to change the former without Ferromancer's installer and the latter with Ferromancer's installer.
I agree that Dahae Skirmisher Cavalry are quite bad. I tried to use them as part of my army when as Baktria I had to fight the Saka Rauka. However, before they could do reach any enemies (I sent them after the enemy foot archers), they were killed by missile fire. Every single one of them. They didn't even have time to rout. 
They are great against elephants, though.
Originally Posted by Fondor_Yards:
I'm using them as my missile units in my Pontus campaign, in my armies fighting in the same area as you, without any real problems. After healing they normally take few to no causalities. Even if you do, simply march coast and ship them back home with a small navy. If your admirals are decent at all they should be back in Syria by the end of the year.
The parthian horse archers killed over half of them every time and the ptolemies smashed my fleet.I'm using them as my missile units in my Pontus campaign, in my armies fighting in the same area as you, without any real problems. After healing they normally take few to no causalities. Even if you do, simply march coast and ship them back home with a small navy. If your admirals are decent at all they should be back in Syria by the end of the year.
Originally Posted by Rodrico Stak:
I agree that Dahae Skirmisher Cavalry are quite bad. I tried to use them as part of my army when as Baktria I had to fight the Saka Rauka. However, before they could do reach any enemies (I sent them after the enemy foot archers), they were killed by missile fire. Every single one of them. They didn't even have time to rout.
I agree that Dahae Skirmisher Cavalry are quite bad. I tried to use them as part of my army when as Baktria I had to fight the Saka Rauka. However, before they could do reach any enemies (I sent them after the enemy foot archers), they were killed by missile fire. Every single one of them. They didn't even have time to rout.
Originally Posted by Tollheit:
They are great against elephants, though.
Agree with Rodrica Stak. Tollheit, you'd be better off using Arachosian Skirmisher cav than these guys. They get a little better missile attack, a bit more armor, and, most importantly, more ammo. IMHO, anything the Dahae Sk. can do, Arachosians can do better.They are great against elephants, though.
While I agree with you on the overall crappiness of Daha Rog Baexdzhyn Aefsad, I have to contest your asessment on the following points:
- Arachosians do not have more ammo. They have 14 javelins, as do the Daha Rog Baexdzhyn Aefsad
- Daha Rog Baexdzhyn Aefsad have slightly better range (I'm a huge fan of range)
- most importantly for a unit with limited purpose, the Dahae are cheaper.
- Arachosians do not have more ammo. They have 14 javelins, as do the Daha Rog Baexdzhyn Aefsad
- Daha Rog Baexdzhyn Aefsad have slightly better range (I'm a huge fan of range)
- most importantly for a unit with limited purpose, the Dahae are cheaper.
I stand corrected. I must have read the info on the unit compare tool wrong. I see looking at it now that the Dahae actually have 10 javelins as opposed to 8 (might there be some discrepancy between actual stats and unit compare tool info?), however (if the unit compare tool is correct), the Arachosians do have higher lethality in their primary weapon (1 as opposed to .35). So yeah, my bad.
That said, I still do like the Arachosians a bit better. I've just had better luck using them. The way I take the Indian settlements is with a single purpose built army which receives no reinforcement. The problem I have with the Dahaes is that they (for me) don't last until the end of the campaign, while the Arachosians seem to kill much quicker and don't get banged up nearly as badly, and more importantly, they stay alive to kill elephants in all 3 Indian settlements. But I do agree on your price assessment though.
That said, I still do like the Arachosians a bit better. I've just had better luck using them. The way I take the Indian settlements is with a single purpose built army which receives no reinforcement. The problem I have with the Dahaes is that they (for me) don't last until the end of the campaign, while the Arachosians seem to kill much quicker and don't get banged up nearly as badly, and more importantly, they stay alive to kill elephants in all 3 Indian settlements. But I do agree on your price assessment though.
Originally Posted by MerlinusCDXX:
(might there be some discrepancy between actual stats and unit compare tool info?)
I suppose so, since my EDU file says they have 14 ammo both. Either that, or I have acquired a serious vision impairment.(might there be some discrepancy between actual stats and unit compare tool info?)
Edit: For secondary weapon lethality, it says 0.165 for both in the EDU (+armour piercing), so yes, something is amiss here.
Well, then I'd have to assume that you're correct, since the EDU is the final word on unit stats. D'oh, I guess that means I have to poke around the EDU every time I want the real scoop on units. Thanks for pointing that out.
Several things are not up to date in the unit compare/unit list. For example the Toxotai Kretikoi's stats differ significantly from the EDU.
Originally Posted by strategos roma:
The parthian horse archers killed over half of them every time and the ptolemies smashed my fleet.
Thats why you put some cheap units/heavily armoured units up in front of the rest of your men as arrow fodder when fighting HA armies. As for the navies, if your Rome that far east you should be crazy rich and be able to build better and bigger navies then them.The parthian horse archers killed over half of them every time and the ptolemies smashed my fleet.
from the factions ive played so far id say the elephants are a big let down, 3250(ripoff!) of upkeep 4 a crap unit tht runs amok in almost any situation, also agree with the first post, them equite ares quite expensive and compared to my barbarian oppoants when playing, they dont do much damage at all...not impressed with the roman bodyguard unit either, javalin cavarly tht once in melee get massacred...
Originally Posted by MerlinusCDXX:
I stand corrected. I must have read the info on the unit compare tool wrong. I see looking at it now that the Dahae actually have 10 javelins as opposed to 8 (might there be some discrepancy between actual stats and unit compare tool info?), however (if the unit compare tool is correct), the Arachosians do have higher lethality in their primary weapon (1 as opposed to .35). So yeah, my bad.
Unit Compare is wrong in places; it's not been updated since 0.8x or so.I stand corrected. I must have read the info on the unit compare tool wrong. I see looking at it now that the Dahae actually have 10 javelins as opposed to 8 (might there be some discrepancy between actual stats and unit compare tool info?), however (if the unit compare tool is correct), the Arachosians do have higher lethality in their primary weapon (1 as opposed to .35). So yeah, my bad.
Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius:
Unit Compare is wrong in places; it's not been updated since 0.8x or so.
Thanks QuintusSertotius, that would most certainly explain why the info is wrong. I'll just look to the EDU from now on when I want to look up unit stats.Unit Compare is wrong in places; it's not been updated since 0.8x or so.
i must defend the Thessalian Heavy Cavalry .
Greeks are known for their infantery, they have some of the best. Everything that ist NOT heavy infantery ist thought to be auxiliar force. Make a battleline of Greek Phalangitai, flank them with heavy hoplitai and you have a battleline wich is not easily broken. Let the enemy have a tought time on that line. BEHIND that line you can station lighter troops and your Thessalian Heavy Cavalry . When the enemy gets more and more tired and fights without breaking your line, then use the cavalery to outflank them an crush as hard as possible in the enemys back.
and then see them run ;) no one will survive, because your cavallery is fast
if correctly used, the Thessalian Heavy Cavalry is a good supplement for your heavy infantery force and with its help you can crush an enemy army and defeat it completely (if you just use your heavy infantery, many enemys may survive when they flee, because your infantery ist zu slow to catch them).
Greeks are known for their infantery, they have some of the best. Everything that ist NOT heavy infantery ist thought to be auxiliar force. Make a battleline of Greek Phalangitai, flank them with heavy hoplitai and you have a battleline wich is not easily broken. Let the enemy have a tought time on that line. BEHIND that line you can station lighter troops and your Thessalian Heavy Cavalry . When the enemy gets more and more tired and fights without breaking your line, then use the cavalery to outflank them an crush as hard as possible in the enemys back.
and then see them run ;) no one will survive, because your cavallery is fast
if correctly used, the Thessalian Heavy Cavalry is a good supplement for your heavy infantery force and with its help you can crush an enemy army and defeat it completely (if you just use your heavy infantery, many enemys may survive when they flee, because your infantery ist zu slow to catch them).
Thrakian Prodromoi are available in the same regions as Thessalians, and are much better value for money. Same impact on charge, similar melee ability (though if you're leaving your cavalry in melee, you're doing something wrong).
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