Surprisingly bad units

[Fondor_Yards]

Exactly, which cavalry would he be using then.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Most likely lots of Thraikioi Prodromoi, but no Thessalians. And while he frequently used those Thraikians, he encountered the notorious Makedonian Reformed Bodyguards, which we all fear for our lives when we get to see them. Unfortunately, he is so convinced now that arguments don't reach him. You can say "I experienced this frequently", and "look at the stats", he'll always find an argument to say that Thessalians are bad. Go with Equites Romani instead I say.

[QuintusSertorius]

LOL. It's quite surprising how the benefits of Thessalian Cavalry reveal themselves to the one but not to the other. Quintus, you never really used Thessalian Cavalry. At best you hired a single mercenary unit without any upgrades or experience (logically, cause you don't own Thessalia in your game I presume) and compared it to your battle hardened fully chevroned Thraikioi. You think that Makedonians get another type of bodyguard unit. It's pointless to further discuss that matter with you cause obviously you don't have any significant knowledge about Hellenistic Cavalry in EB. You are the Roman guy, why not just stick to them Romans?

Go have a look at either of my Pergamon AARs to see me using Thessalians (early on when I overestimated how effective they might be, based on their stats and their cost). See how poor they are. See me butchering Makedonian FMs with Epirote FMs and Thrakian Prodromoi. See that I actually know how to use my cavalry, as well.

I use Curepos, Illyrian Hippeis, Thrakian Prodromoi, Eastern Light Cavalry, Hellenistic Mercenary Generals and Epirote FMs to great effect. The only ones out of that lot who aren't mercenary for me are the Eastern Lights. We're not comparing apples with oranges, Thessalians are mercenary for me too.

So I don't pay much attention to the progression of factions I have no interest in playing, big deal. Still remains that I've killed their FMs with ease.

[Celtic_Punk]

plus Quintus is not the only one here who has said they've been let down on more than one occasion by thessalians

[Ludens]

I hate to admit this, but I think Thessalians underpowered as well. Stat-wise Prodromoi offer the same charge value and better stamina at 75% of the cost. Thessalians do better at close-combat, but not that much, and it isn't what cavalry are meant for. The only use I can imagine for Thessalians is to engage and pin enemy heavy cavalry: here they can use their speed, armour and AP side-arm to best effect. However, they do suffer a lot of casualties in the process so you can only do this in a couple of battles before needing reinforcements. Hetairoi on the other hand do this almost without breaking a sweat, while Prodromoi won't do that much worse and are easier to replace.

[teh1337tim]

it really depend on how you use it and where you use it, hell i usually maintain 1 or 2 in my army along with those thraikens and hetairoi ,
it beats anything in greece and can be recruited via merc or from lvl 4 mic so easier to maintain early on, ah well- as long as it beats anything in greece, im good .. then on to other calv in asia :P

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Thessalians - to my experience - do quite much better in close combat because they have an AP-Kopis. They are as swift and agile as Prodromoi, but at the same time better armoured. They cost more though and have a very limited recruitment area, but this has nothing to do with their ability in battle of course.

[Celtic_Punk]

I just put em to the test tonight, I hired 1 Thessalonian cavalry unit, and 1 of those Prodromoi. When flanking and hammering the rear it seems that Prodromoi do not have as great a charge, but they can maintain their morale in a shitty situation and stay fresh for longer. Thessalonians for all that extra armour giving them more weight in their charge, they lose alot more pulling out to repeat, and once they do they have already begun to tire themselves out. Their armour is their burden. They cannot catch lighter cavalry, and when mopping up the enemy they've lost so many troops that they get mobbed by even missile units. Prodromoi have alot more staying power, and when you've got huge unit sizes on and a large number of regiments on each side, you want someone who can stick it out to the end. Thessalonians are just not up to the task. as a reserve cavalry unit that is there to rape infantry/cavalry trying to flank your men, they excel at that. nothing more. But unless you got money to piss away that could be spent on your economy, your not going to need Thessalonians. My advice? save the 7000 and buy yourself a nice market, peace loving marketeers will help your war effort more than these clowns will, because the fact of the matter is, their job can be fufilled by any cavalry force, or even some cheap and dependable theroperuoi (spelling?) at least they have javelins!

[QuintusSertorius]

They are as swift and agile as Prodromoi, but at the same time better armoured.

Not even is this a contradiction in terms, but it's simply untrue. Heavier armour is why they're both slower, and have less stamina. And by the way, we've been talking about the Thrakian Prodromoi throughout, not the regular Hellenistic ones (which aren't as good).

[Ludens]

Thessalians - to my experience - do quite much better in close combat because they have an AP-Kopis. They are as swift and agile as Prodromoi, but at the same time better armoured.

Nope, Thessalians are not as swift and agile as Prodromoi because the latter have improved stamina as well as the same charge. This makes them better at executing repeated shock-charges. Thessalians are superior in close-combat fighting, but they don't exactly excel at it and always seem to take somewhat high casualties in my hands. Prodromoi do even worse, but you don't expect them to do well and they are easy and cheap to replace. Neither of them is suited for close-combat anyway: leave that to the infantry or the likes of Hetairoi.

[Celtic_Punk]

Prodromoi have sooooo much more staying power which is the critical element I think about when choosing cavalry.

Prodromoi have survivability, stamina, and speed

Thessalians have armour and AP.

thanks ill take the guys who will survive a battle or two.

[QuintusSertorius]

Prodromoi have sooooo much more staying power which is the critical element I think about when choosing cavalry.

Prodromoi have survivability, stamina, and speed

Thessalians have armour and AP.

thanks ill take the guys who will survive a battle or two.

As far as I'm concerned, there's only three qualities shock cavalry need: speed, stamina and AP lances.

Which is why Curepos, which are cheap and avaliable almost everywhere in the west and near east, are brilliant value for money.

[Celtic_Punk]

check out the Goidillic cavalry mate, they'll certainly give you a run for your money!


Hellenic native phalanx's(EDIT, I ACTUALLY MEANT SPEARMEN, NOT PHALANX) the ones you find in the East... those guys are worthless! sure they are supposed to be sub-par, but they can hardly fight themselves.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Then you're using them wrong; cause I find they are really, very effective against heavy cavalry; and most infantry of the line too. In the hands of the AI, anything non-phalanx will find themselves very unpleasantly surprised by those guys.

[Celtic_Punk]

oh sorry, i meant spearmen, not phalangitai. the phalangites are quite useful if you cannot afford better trained and equipped phalanx's



these buggers, absolute rubbish... even those freed slaves have done better in a pinch defending walls for me.

[QuintusSertorius]

oh sorry, i meant spearmen, not phalangitai. the phalangites are quite useful if you cannot afford better trained and equipped phalanx's



these buggers

They're awful. What's worse is they're more expensive, and poorer in quality than levy hoplites (haven't checked the 1.1 EDU, but according to the RV, five (!) points of defense and a point of morale).

[||Lz3||]

yeh... tehy can't even stand a chance against parthian horse archers in mele <.<

[Celtic_Punk]

lol at least with those freed slave guys you can mob their cavalry or soemthing. these guys are just wothless and expensive... they dont even do well at sucking up arrows cause they drop like flies, so they are LITERALLY useless

[satalexton]

well wt do u expect out of a bunch of villagers pressed into service, armed with nothing but a pointy stick and a plank call 'shield'?

[Celtic_Punk]

to stick it out like a man, as I said the freed slaves do a better job then these guys do lol and in the description of the slaves it says "INFERIOR TO EVERY OTHER UNIT" they should add in "except Hellenistic native spearmen!"

[satalexton]

dude, the free slave have rocks and BOARDS WITH NAILS. xD

u know anybody armed with a board with nails can repulse even aliens.... >_>

[Lysimachos]

Laugh about them when you face a rebellion of Apeleutheroi with three golden chevrons, golden weapons and armor...

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Not even is this a contradiction in terms, but it's simply untrue. Heavier armour is why they're both slower, and have less stamina. And by the way, we've been talking about the Thrakian Prodromoi throughout, not the regular Hellenistic ones (which aren't as good).

Yes, Thraikioi Prodromoi. I just told that story of a battle where my Thraikioi got obliterated by regular Prodromoi, but revenged by worn-out Thessalikoi then, but it seems that things as these only happen to me here.

Nope, Thessalians are not as swift and agile as Prodromoi because the latter have improved stamina as well as the same charge. This makes them better at executing repeated shock-charges. Thessalians are superior in close-combat fighting, but they don't exactly excel at it and always seem to take somewhat high casualties in my hands. Prodromoi do even worse, but you don't expect them to do well and they are easy and cheap to replace. Neither of them is suited for close-combat anyway: leave that to the infantry or the likes of Hetairoi.

OK, perhaps the Thessalians are a bit slower. I didn't exactly measure it. However, I care more about the actual battle performances. Oh and Thraikioi Prodromoi of whom Quintus was speaking are not exactly much better to replace then Thessalians, you basically have to own the same portion of the map / hire scarce mercenaries. Easy to replace are regular Prodromoi and Lonchophoroi Hippeis, as a combination of similar quality, but both are an important tad worse in battle than the aforementioned two.


OK our mutual opinions won't change. But once look at it from the historical perspective please:

• It's not a tactic to "rinse and repeat" charging at the enemy. That is an EB tactic. There is absolutely no way that a cavalry unit would pull out after a completed charge, ride back and charge again. Charge is charge, and either it works, which means victory over the attacked unit with near to no casualties, or it fails, which means fight to death or rout. A retreat after a charge is rout.
• Once the cavalry is unleashed, there is normally no way to even order the unit to attack another unit. The unit would chase the routed foe to the end. Only real elite cavalry, such as Hannibal's Iberians at Cannae, would be able to perform so disciplined.
• So basically, order your charge command with thought and pray, as it is the way it would have worked. EB units do not instantly rout normally, so cavalry will most likely need their close combat ability.

So repeated charging has its place in EB tactics, but in reality it is not an option. It is actually an exploit. Use Thessalians for charging at pinned worn-out infantry. Use Hetairoi for charging at pinned worn-out elite infantry or cavalry. Use your Prodromoi and Thraikioi Prodromoi for charging at pinned worn-out unarmoured levies. And better, let your heavy infantry do the blood work.

PS: Has nothing to do with cavalry, but with exploit tactics. Do not move your psiloi around the flanks of your battle line and let them shoot at the enemy's back. This is an exploit as well. Historical psiloi would stand where they were commanded to stand and unleash their volleys, at best. Any confrontation with enemy soldiers would rout them instantaneously.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

these buggers, absolute rubbish... even those freed slaves have done better in a pinch defending walls for me.

Well, not surprising at all. They are the poor lad from the next village. They work at a day's pay (sorry don't know the correct term), probably are not even free men and are pressed into service with a knock on their head. How would you fight then?

They are a garrison unit, or an emergency unit. However, let your Hetairoi charge them head on and see how much of your nobility gets a dirty death at the hands of a poor analphatet hillbilly.

[teh1337tim]

Hell I put 2 eastern slingres over these guys and eve n the jewish spearmen (forgot name) do better


Lol is it as worse as fighting 16 units of those gold silv slaves with 4 unit of garison troops and the rest fill with merc. After the battle they filled 1 unit slot comfortablly while my merc lost less then 10% of their menm!!!!!!!

[Lysimachos]

Hell I put 2 eastern slingres over these guys and eve n the jewish spearmen (forgot name) do better

The Iudaioi Taxeis are actually very useful, a candidate for surprisingly good units.

It's not a tactic to "rinse and repeat" charging at the enemy. That is an EB tactic. There is absolutely no way that a cavalry unit would pull out after a completed charge, ride back and charge again.

There is one way: the enemy has a shieldwall that you can't breach and the enemies don't get "mixed" (the battle that spontaneously came to my mind is out of the timeframe, though: Hastings).

But this reminds me of M2TW. For Kingdoms they made some changes (forgot what, played it on another computer some time ago) that made mounted units worthless for frontal charges. In medieval times a head-on charge was a standard tactic but the game negates it

[Woreczko]

• It's not a tactic to "rinse and repeat" charging at the enemy. That is an EB tactic. There is absolutely no way that a cavalry unit would pull out after a completed charge, ride back and charge again. Charge is charge, and either it works, which means victory over the attacked unit with near to no casualties, or it fails, which means fight to death or rout. A retreat after a charge is rout.
• Once the cavalry is unleashed, there is normally no way to even order the unit to attack another unit. The unit would chase the routed foe to the end. Only real elite cavalry, such as Hannibal's Iberians at Cannae, would be able to perform so disciplined.
• So basically, order your charge command with thought and pray, as it is the way it would have worked. EB units do not instantly rout normally, so cavalry will most likely need their close combat ability.

Repeated cavalry charges actually were a standart late medieval and modern tactics in Europe. A cavalry unit would charge infantry and get through or fall back to make place for another line to make their charge. Single soldier (particularly if he was wealthy) could participate in several charges as long as fresh horses (and lances) were available upon his return to the "main line". Of course in ancient times it may have worked different, that I do not know.

[QuintusSertorius]

PS: Has nothing to do with cavalry, but with exploit tactics. Do not move your psiloi around the flanks of your battle line and let them shoot at the enemy's back. This is an exploit as well. Historical psiloi would stand where they were commanded to stand and unleash their volleys, at best. Any confrontation with enemy soldiers would rout them instantaneously.

Well by the line you're taking here, anything that isn't playing on the general cam, with all units under AI control is an "exploit". We can't help how unrealistic the RTW engine is.

Psiloi like peltastai weren't just skirmishers. Often they were lightened hoplites, so using them for aggressive flanking isn't misplaced at all.

[Celtic_Punk]

Yes, I don't understand what kind of point you are trying to make Centurio Nixalsverdrus. Infact repeated cavalry charges were a standard tactic, and unlike you said:

Once the cavalry is unleashed, there is normally no way to even order the unit to attack another unit. The unit would chase the routed foe to the end. Only real elite cavalry, such as Hannibal's Iberians at Cannae, would be able to perform so disciplined.

this is untrue, In armies they had a bugler or whatever horn instrument they had at the time who would play a specific tune, note, or series of notes that would signal a withdrawal. of course if your bugler falls then you're buggered but it is likely the general's cavalry wing would not be the first wing to engage unless absolutely necessary.

Also, i doubt (unless the cavalry was in a bloodlust state of mind) they would chase routers till they were all dead allowing the enemy the ability to make a critical flanking manoeuvre. There are accounts of the tide of battle being completely turned because of a brutal error such as that, However this didn't happen alot. and I'm sure a half decent general would have told his cavalry not to make such a mistake.

please keep on topic, and try not to talk out of your ass. this isn't Ace Ventura.

[Ludens]

OK, perhaps the Thessalians are a bit slower. I didn't exactly measure it. However, I care more about the actual battle performances.

I am not sure whether there is a difference in speed between Thessalians and Prodromoi (standard and Thracian). I was talking about their stamina. Thessalians get worn out after a couple of charges. Prodromoi have the hardy-stat, so they lose their battle-effectiveness less quickly.