Surprisingly bad units

Originally Posted by Celtic_Punk

this is untrue, In armies they had a bugler or whatever horn instrument they had at the time who would play a specific tune, note, or series of notes that would signal a withdrawal. of course if your bugler falls then you're buggered but it is likely the general's cavalry wing would not be the first wing to engage unless absolutely necessary.
Well, such battles do make a decent noise, and it's impossible to reach your cavalry in a mile's or more distance with the sound of a trumpet or whatever instrument.

Also, i doubt (unless the cavalry was in a bloodlust state of mind) they would chase routers till they were all dead allowing the enemy the ability to make a critical flanking manoeuvre. There are accounts of the tide of battle being completely turned because of a brutal error such as that, However this didn't happen alot. and I'm sure a half decent general would have told his cavalry not to make such a mistake.

Such as Pompey at Pharsalos, Alexander at Issos and Gaugamela? Hannibal did indeed, and it was extraordinary, not the rule, and doubtless impossible with a worse cavarly force than his Iberians (which are underrepresented in EB).

please keep on topic, and try not to talk out of your ass. this isn't Ace Ventura.

Yes, please keep on topic...

Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius

Well by the line you're taking here, anything that isn't playing on the general cam, with all units under AI control is an "exploit". We can't help how unrealistic the RTW engine is.

Strictly speaking yes, anything else than General's cam is an exploit. The only thing which in RL was better than in the game is that the units would be commanded by human beings which do not need constant babysitting if properly briefed before battle.

Psiloi like peltastai weren't just skirmishers. Often they were lightened hoplites, so using them for aggressive flanking isn't misplaced at all.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Peltastai aren't Psiloi, but lightened Hoplites indeed. Psiloi are really poor people from the slums etc.. Akontistai, Sphendonetai and Toxotai.

I think you don't understand what an exploit is. Yes battles aren't 100% accurate, and most likely never will be Just because you can actually tell your units what to do across the map isn't an exploit. Deploying/fighting at the red lines is an exploit.

Also, you don't need to double post every time. There's an edit button.

Jewish Spearmen: Do the same job as Hellenic Spearmen, they do it worse, they cost more and the Greeks can be trained either in the same places as the Jews or the town next to them. Not a bad unit per say, but something better is available and more wide spread for less gold.

Originally Posted by Sdragon

Jewish Spearmen: Do the same job as Hellenic Spearmen, they do it worse, they cost more and the Greeks can be trained either in the same places as the Jews or the town next to them. Not a bad unit per say, but something better is available and more wide spread for less gold.

You mean the Thureophoroi? The Iudaioi cost slightly more because they are 25 % more men in a unit, also have better morale than the Thureophoroi. These have better armor, a bit more javelin damage, though less range.
I woudn't underestimate the numbers. I use both, but when i'm able to, i take Thorakitai instead of Thureophoroi while i retain the Iudaioi.

Originally Posted by Centurio Nixalsverdrus

Strictly speaking yes, anything else than General's cam is an exploit. The only thing which in RL was better than in the game is that the units would be commanded by human beings which do not need constant babysitting if properly briefed before battle.

So why not autocalc all battles then? Seems better than being stuck at ground level not being able to see very much, hoping the retarded AI does what it's supposed to.

Originally Posted by Centurio Nixalsverdrus

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Peltastai aren't Psiloi, but lightened Hoplites indeed. Psiloi are really poor people from the slums etc.. Akontistai, Sphendonetai and Toxotai.

In any case, I don't use my psiloi in combat. They stand in front of the line, firing until they're out. Then they hide behind the line waiting for a rout. Watch any of my battle reports and you can see how they're used. That's also why they take so few casualties.

I think I'm with Centurio in this one...

I also think that once the cav has been sent... it's over , unless you're using really trained guys... but for example... I doubt leuce eppos (sp?) have that order

Originally Posted by Fondor_Yards

I think you don't understand what an exploit is. Yes battles aren't 100% accurate, and most likely never will be Just because you can actually tell your units what to do across the map isn't an exploit. Deploying/fighting at the red lines is an exploit.

Also, you don't need to double post every time. There's an edit button.

I said "strictly speaking". I too don't use General's cam, just because I'm too afraid of using my precious troops to non-thinking computer-officers. Sometimes I even make repeated charges! And sorry that I double-posted twice.

Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius

So why not autocalc all battles then? Seems better than being stuck at ground level not being able to see very much, hoping the retarded AI does what it's supposed to.

Autocalc is even more retarded. In autocalc, the computer calculates the battles the same way he fights the real battles: cavalry headlong into the sarissas. You can see that at the ridiculous casualty rates for cavalry units. And I think Thraikioi Prodromoi are fantastic cavalry force btw.

Originally Posted by ||Lz3||

I think I'm with Centurio in this one...

I also think that once the cav has been sent... it's over , unless you're using really trained guys... but for example... I doubt leuce eppos (sp?) have that order

¡Finalmente! I began to feel really lonely....

I agree with you that Thessalians aren't a bad unit, at all. They have their place in the battle line as do the Prodromoi who are more of an outer wing cavalry, instead of a close flank guard.

Originally Posted by Centurio Nixalsverdrus

• It's not a tactic to "rinse and repeat" charging at the enemy. That is an EB tactic. There is absolutely no way that a cavalry unit would pull out after a completed charge, ride back and charge again. Charge is charge, and either it works, which means victory over the attacked unit with near to no casualties, or it fails, which means fight to death or rout. A retreat after a charge is rout.

But dude, wtf? You need to read more.

Originally Posted by Sarcasm

I agree with you that Thessalians aren't a bad unit, at all. They have their place in the battle line as do the Prodromoi who are more of an outer wing cavalry, instead of a close flank guard.

Exactly.

Originally Posted by Sarcasm

But dude, wtf? You need to read more.

I can't imagine that for the Antique time period. When you get somehow deflected, perhaps, but if once in the middle of the fray in melee? I can't imagine how collecting the combatants and retreat for a new attack would have worked. If you have proof for it, well... it's not that I'm unable to change my mind.

About cavalry :
Guys, I think you are simply speaking of different tactics, in RL soldiers are quite more versatile than in RTW...
When cavalry was forced to face (frontally I mean) infantry, with no chance to outflank, what did they do? Like the Berber cavalry at Poitiers or the Norman cavalry at Hastings they fake charge, slow down when near to the enemy foot soldiers, attack them from safe distance with missiles or long spears, then retreat to not be caught in melee. When cavalrymen see their foes disorganized or frightened, they made a full charge and rout them. Simple. You're both right and however there's no need to be disrespectful to each other...

Originally Posted by Aper

About cavalry :
Guys, I think you are simply speaking of different tactics, in RL soldiers are quite more versatile than in RTW...
When cavalry was forced to face (frontally I mean) infantry, with no chance to outflank, what did they do? Like the Berber cavalry at Poitiers or the Norman cavalry at Hastings they fake charge, slow down when near to the enemy foot soldiers, attack them from safe distance with missiles or long spears, then retreat to not be caught in melee. When cavalrymen see their foes disorganized or frightened, they made a full charge and rout them. Simple. You're both right and however there's no need to be disrespectful to each other...

So, a bit like Hippakontistai type cavalry, or Hetairoi Aspidophoroi.

Anyways I thought about the rinse and repeat issue and have come to the so far conclusion that very elite forces would be certainly able to do so. Like Hetairoi, people with much to lose, a reputation, wealth, social standing. People with very strong ties to the ruling house and a strong warrior codex. But I don't think this would be the case for lower or middle class cavalry. I don't think Prodromoi could perform such a maneuver. In the middle of melee, each fighting for his live, then to listen to an order of some sort, which essentially means retreat in the first place, but then not to fully retreat, but instead line up again. This is difficult and would require a very large degree of discipline and morale.

Romani early bodyguard cavalry are horrible.

At least in contrast to the bodyguards of my Pahlava/Pontos campaigns, anyway.

Originally Posted by penguinking

Romani early bodyguard cavalry are horrible.

At least in contrast to the bodyguards of my Pahlava/Pontos campaigns, anyway.

lol... a bit of an unfair comparison, considering that Eastern Heavy cavalry and Steppe Kataphract archers are friggin' monsters on the field.

Originally Posted by Jaertecken

The Camillian Triarii ain't that good, I usually find them too expensive early on in the campaign and I much rather prefer the Camillian Principes, which got Pilums to throw before a charge, spears to skewer cavalry with and swords for infantry.

I agree with this.

Camillian Triarii is not bad to face against cavarly, buth Camilian Principes can do just as impressive job as them with less recruiting and upkeep coast.

Do not include them in an army unless they volunteer

Camillian Principes don't have swords, units can only have two weapons.

Triarii are better than Principes. I always train Triarii because they take fewer losses. Since the Principes aren't a sword unit, it doesn't really make sense to train them instead of Triarii unless you're very low on money. If Camillian Principes were a sword unit, then you could have some Pricipes in a legion to deal with enemy infantry and some Triarii to deal with cavalry. Otherwise it wouldn't make sense to train Principes. Triarii do much better against everything than Principes. If you want a sword and pila unit in the Camillian times, just recruit Hastati.

I didn't think the Roman bodyguard was that bad. I mean, it doesn't compare to the Pahlavan or other nomadic bodyguards as you have said(who have bows in addition to lances) but it's better than many other Western bodyguards.

Originally Posted by Centurio Nixalsverdrus

But I don't think this would be the case for lower or middle class cavalry. I don't think Prodromoi could perform such a maneuver. In the middle of melee, each fighting for his live, then to listen to an order of some sort, which essentially means retreat in the first place, but then not to fully retreat, but instead line up again. This is difficult and would require a very large degree of discipline and morale.

Given the cost of maintaining horses it's unlikely that many cavalrymen would be towards the bottom of the income scale. And discipline is hardly an exclusive preserve of the noble class either. It could even be argued that the quest for glory amongst the Hellenistic or Hellenised nobility militated against discipline as they might be more keen to charge, and not want to be seen to retreat. Training, drill and discipline would be as much a result of culture as income.

In any case, I always imagined that the majority of successor troops (barring levies and "tribal" units) are more likely to be professionals or mercenaries than semi-drilled citizens, given the fact that some part of the region or other was at war more or less continuously through the period.

Triarii I think are ridiculous. I'm facing seas of them in my Epeiros campaign (VH/M) and they never seem to run out. They're something like 15 atk/27 def with ~1600 cost. It's insane.

However, I kill every Roman bodyguard I face. They suck, at least compared to other bodyguards.

I've never been as disappointed by a unit before. Low numbers, high cost, absolutely worthless at killing or absorbing damage. They can't do anything well, not even the things you'd normally assume something that sucks to be able to do well (ie. meat shields/minor annoyance/mobbing) since they're so horribly expensive and are so few in number. Don't let their stats trick you, these soldiers are worthless in its most absolute sense.



Unlike their real world counterparts, Numidian Cavalry in this game are quite sub-par. They're expensive, and the only thing they've got over footborne skirmishers is their speed. However they're still at a disadvantage compared to them imo. For one, they're much more vulnerable to missile fire. They also don't last nearly as long when you need to put them to use somewhere, and only throw half the amount of javelins of a 100 man unit. Playing as my favorite faction (guess which one it is), two units of Numidian Javelinmen will cost you less than a single unit of Numidian Cavalry and they still have the advantage over the cavalrymen. But then again, I think that non-horse archer skirmisher cavalry in general is useless, they simply don't do enough damage.

Originally Posted by Carthaginian General

I've never been as disappointed by a unit before. Low numbers, high cost, absolutely worthless at killing or absorbing damage. They can't do anything well, not even the things you'd normally assume something that sucks to be able to do well (ie. meat shields/minor annoyance/mobbing) since they're so horribly expensive and are so few in number. Don't let their stats trick you, these soldiers are worthless in its most absolute sense.

Really? Having battled half a dozen units of them recently, I must say that they are quite tough. They have an AP axe and are nearly impenetrable to missile fire. They are not meant to absorbe shock impact however, that's a spear-only-task if you ask me.

Originally Posted by Centurio Nixalsverdrus

Really? Having battled half a dozen units of them recently, I must say that they are quite tough. They have an AP axe and are nearly impenetrable to missile fire. They are not meant to absorbe shock impact however, that's a spear-only-task if you ask me.

Yep, strangely enough... they look good but are garbage in practice. There's much better ways to spend those 3000 mnai, if you ask me. Go ahead, test Iberian Assault Infantry against Ordmalica, and then test the Elite Liby Phoenician Infantry against them. And you're right, they're not meant to absorb much if anything, but they still died surprisingly fast.

Thessalians are great because it's easily available in the Balkans. I use them to supplement my generals and Thrakians.

Elephants can be used to destroy calvary and phalangists. Use your calvary to kill of enemy skirmishers first.

Originally Posted by strategos roma

Thessalians are great because it's easily available in the Balkans. I use them to supplement my generals and Thrakians.

Elephants can be used to destroy calvary and phalangists. Use your calvary to kill of enemy skirmishers first.

Slingers are much more effective at killing off enemy skirmishers than any cavalry.

Originally Posted by Carthaginian General

I've never been as disappointed by a unit before. Low numbers, high cost, absolutely worthless at killing or absorbing damage. They can't do anything well, not even the things you'd normally assume something that sucks to be able to do well (ie. meat shields/minor annoyance/mobbing) since they're so horribly expensive and are so few in number. Don't let their stats trick you, these soldiers are worthless in its most absolute sense.

Are you serious?
They make minced meat of pretty much everything you throw them at, just make sure they're pinned by something cheap...

Originally Posted by Zarax

Are you serious?
They make minced meat of pretty much everything you throw them at, just make sure they're pinned by something cheap...

Yeah I'm serious. For something that costs 3000 mnai, you'd expect a unit that is sort of acceptable by the very least, which they are, but in my experience they haven't been useful at all. I might need to try them more but so far, not at all.

Originally Posted by Carthaginian General

I've never been as disappointed by a unit before. Low numbers, high cost, absolutely worthless at killing or absorbing damage. They can't do anything well, not even the things you'd normally assume something that sucks to be able to do well (ie. meat shields/minor annoyance/mobbing) since they're so horribly expensive and are so few in number. Don't let their stats trick you, these soldiers are worthless in its most absolute sense.

lol, I've used them extensively and they never disappoint. First through the breach in sieges with wooden walls/ first on the walls vs stone walls they chop basically everything up. They recently pwned some ptolemy agema on the stone walls of paraitionion for me in my Qarthadast campaign. I really think your off base here.

edit: also they are a really good looking unit (as you noted)

Thessalians tend to tire and die a bit too quickly for my tastes, especially considering how expensive they are. With that said, they're not really a bad unit, as they can be very powerful.

By far the worst unit in the game is Hellenic native spearmen. They simply suck at everything. They die like flies, lose to every unit in melee combat, and rout ridiculously quickly.

As I said before, Romani consular guard cavalry are horrible. They are terrible in melee, their charge isn't that great and they die quickly. And worst of all, they don't look anywhere near as cool as any of the other bodyguards.

I use Thessalians heavily in my Epeiros campaign, and they don't tire too quickly at all, from my experience. However, I'm starting to replace them with Molosson Agema, as those guys have (very good stamina) and rarely tire. But don't beat on the Thessalians: they're strong, just not the best.

The Pantodapoi are good for one thing: Garrison duty. The Kavakaza Sparabara are better simply because of their superior traits, a longer spear, and because Hayasadan has to rely on them early on, and they can get the job done when supported by [great] eastern archers.

No single unit is terrible: it's all in context and use.

Originally Posted by gamegeek2

I use Thessalians heavily in my Epeiros campaign, and they don't tire too quickly at all, from my experience. However, I'm starting to replace them with Molosson Agema, as those guys have (very good stamina) and rarely tire. But don't beat on the Thessalians: they're strong, just not the best.

The Pantodapoi are good for one thing: Garrison duty. The Kavakaza Sparabara are better simply because of their superior traits, a longer spear, and because Hayasadan has to rely on them early on, and they can get the job done when supported by [great] eastern archers.

No single unit is terrible: it's all in context and use.

I would disagree. The Pantodapoi are terrible. They're not even that good at garrison duty. They are utterly useless. They lose to horse archers in melee. And they are spearmen.

And furthermore, while almost every unit, with the obvious exception of Hellenic Native Spearmen, can be decent in ideal situations or in a very narrow role, that doesn't mean they're not a bad unit. I would call a unit bad if it's grossly overcosted, or simply does not perform it's role well. The more I play with them, the more I think Thessalians fall into this category. From my experiences, you can get at most two good charges out of them before they are significantly weakened by fatigue.