Mongol Unit mix

[Orda Khan]

MLC ... Perhaps more accuracy than JCA and with better melee abilities but not as strong as YC or NC...... 700 koku
MHC .. WITH anti cav bonus, not as fast as YC. I see this unit as being a sort of YC/NC hybrid. Capable of beating both in melee it is still slower than YC, allowing the Japanese player the option to pin and rear, etc.....1000 koku

YIC (Yuan Imperial Cav) .. A carbon copy JHC....1200 koku
YHA (Yuan Horsearchers) .. Carbon copy JCA but with less armour (I don't know the beta8 stats, so I don't know what JCA have).....500 koku

On to infantry...
KGM (Korean Guardsman) .. A NI in most ways, though with less armour and faster. A combination of NI and YS......700 koku
KS (Korean Spearman) .. Carbon copy YA (you can't make this unit weaker than rice planting peasants).....200 koku
KSk (Korean Skirmishers) .. Possibly use the Murrabatin inf stats? I can't remember if they were the ones with shields, I think they were. Whatever the case, they should be no better than Teppo in melee....200 koku
YIA (Yuan Imperial Archers) .. Carbon copy SA?......400 koku
TB (Thunder Bombers) .. Now I don't know whether this unit would really add anything to the battle but I would be inclined to drop it and think of another option.....

SC (Song Crossbowmen) .. The addition of this unit would give the Mongol player his 'guns' for MP shoot outs. It could be similar to the Portugese Teppo. The Turkish Crossbow sprites could be used.....300 koku.

.......Orda

[barocca]

hello Orda

i'm with you on wanting mongols to go up against the sengoku era samurai,
remember i did exactly that with my campaign mod for shogun-warlords,

many thanks for finding that post for me,
i had not thought of crossbows i'll get to work on that - (which unit exactly are you thinking of?)

(out of 50 bif folders i have only 6 spare folders left)
(VI released with 38 + 10 customs + 2 "forgotten folders" = 50)

[Orda Khan]

i had not thought of crossbows i'll get to work on that - (which unit exactly are you thinking of?)

Tbh, I can't remember all the VI units any more. I am of the understanding that the sprite and animation are one? That's why I suggested the Turkish crossbow unit, it does not have a pavise. If you can give the crossbow animation to a Korean unit, better still. (I make no effort to hide the fact that this part is over my head)

.......Orda

[barocca]

lets start the argument rolling shall we??

R'as is right about possible mulitple Era's in the future,
for now, for MP, I was hoping we would need only one era, with people settling what to take before battle,
"free-for-all" is still on my list of things i'd love to play.

maybe 3 era's then, sengoku, mongol and free-for-all

Samurai get Ashi-Archers (a modified mtw bif file),

EDIT -> EVENTUALLY Monks will get their own cav and infantry, they will not be as heavily armoured as the samurai, but a touch more fanatical - i have NO desire to balance a monk faction for MP, as long as they dont become a steamroller they'll eventually add some spice to the mix is all i wish.

but these guys we want to try to balance.
Mongol's, Korean's and Chinese.
In rough order of strength/morale
(note => is slightly more than, :: = is equal, :: =< slighlty less than, :: < less than)

Mongol Heavy Cavalry (lance) (no anti-cav) => NI/JHC
Mongol Light Cavalry (bow/axe) (armour piercing) => JCA & = NI (but less armour)

Yuan Imperial Heavy Cavalry (sword) = JHC (but has shield)
Yuan Imperial Horse Archers (bow) = JCA (but sightly less armour)

Yuan Imperial Guard Heavy Infantry (sword) (shield) = ND (similar attack, more armour)
Yuan Imperial Archers (bow/sword) (shield) = (GoldenHordeWarriors) (=WM ??????)

Han-Chun Medium Infantry (sword) =<ND
Han-Chun Medium Infantry (spear) =<YS
Han-Chun Crossbowmen (x-bow) = Teppo/Ashi-Xbow
Han-Chun Archers (bow) =< SA

Korean Guard (halberd) (armour piercing) (shield) = NI (less armour)
Korean Medium Infantry (spear) (shield) => YA
Korean Light Archers (bow) = Ashi Bowman (<SA <YA)

Korean Conscript Spearmen (spear) = YA
Korean Conscript Skirmishers (javelin) = no real equiv but "Ashi" quality
Korean Conscript Grenadiers (thunder bomb) = no real equiv but "Ashi" quality

Song Tribal Medium Cavalry (spear) or (sword) or (bow) + (shield)


ALSO could make Song Tribal Infantry (i have a couple of suitable unit bifs)
but see no real point except for the second Mongol Invasion in Single Player mode

[Orda Khan]

Hello Barocca,
That's a large list there, may I offer a suggestion?
Please don't think I am being critical when I say the unit roster is too long, I am sure it will introduce some fun in SP campaign.

For MP, I think the simplicity of unit choice is what made STW so good and this simplicity should be considered when refining a Mongol roster. The Japanese stats already used in this mod should be carried over to the Mongol era (with or without guns'n'monks) and the Mongol unit stats based on these. I think play balance would be best achieved this way.

Out of interest, have you ever considered a Korean faction? Remember, Japan attempted an invasion of Korea during the Sengoku period (well just after I suppose) There are a number of handy units already mentioned that would fit neatly into their roster, making this another interesting option.

I have looked at the 11b unit stats, I'll offer some starting stats for the Mongol units if you like?
And if Beta8 is going to be tested, I'll install it and come along for the ride

.......Orda

[Orda Khan]

Some tentative stats ....

Song Crossbowman
Men: 60
Cost 300
Charge bonus: 0
Attack factor: -7
Defense factor: -4 (-7)
Armor: 2
Morale bonus: 0
Walk speed: 7
Run speed: 12
Charge speed: 12
Ammo: 20
Reload: 21 sec
Range 100 meters
Accuracy: 0.12
Lethality: 72%
Power: 4
Armor modifier: 0.015

Korean Skirmishers
Men: 60
Cost 300
Charge bonus: 0
Attack factor: -2
Defense factor: 1
Armor: 2
Morale bonus: 4
Walk speed: 6
Run speed: 8
Charge speed: 10
Ammo: 3
Reload: 4 sec
Range 50 meters
Accuracy: 0.12
Lethality: 20%
Power: 4
Armor modifier: 1.0

Yuan Imperial Archers
Men: 60
Cost 400
Charge bonus: 2
Attack factor: 0
Defense factor: 0
Armor: 2
Morale bonus: 4
Walk speed: 6
Run speed: 10
Charge speed: 12
Ammo: 36
Reload: 4 sec
Range 100 meters
Accuracy: 0.6
Lethality: 12%
Power: 1
Armor modifier: 1.0

Korean Spearman
Men: 60
Cost 200
Charge bonus: 0
Attack factor: -1 (4)
Defense factor: -1 (-4)
Armor: 2
Morale bonus: 4
Walk speed: 7
Run speed: 12
Charge speed: 14

Korean Guardsman
Men: 60
Cost 700
Charge bonus: 2
Attack factor: 0
Defense factor: 4
Armor: 4
Morale bonus: 7
Walk speed: 6
Run speed: 10
Charge speed: 12

Yuan Imperial Heavy Cavalry
Men: 60
Cost 1200
Charge bonus: 4
Attack factor: 3
Defense factor: 5
Armor: 5
Morale bonus: 8
Walk speed: 8
Run speed: 20
Charge speed: 22

Mongol Heavy Cavalry
Men: 60
Cost 1000
Charge bonus: 4
Attack factor: 3 (4)
Defense factor: 3
Armor: 4
Morale bonus: 7
Walk speed: 10
Run speed: 20
Charge speed: 22

Mongol Light Cavalry
Men: 60
Cost 700
Charge bonus: 3
Attack factor: 0
Defense factor: 2
Armor: 3
Morale bonus: 6
Walk speed: 10
Run speed: 22
Charge speed: 24
Ammo: 36
Reload: 4 sec
Range 100 meters
Accuracy: 0.6
Lethality: 14%
Power: 1
Armor modifier: 1.0

Yuan Imperial Horsearchers
Men: 60
Cost 500
Charge bonus: 2
Attack factor: 0
Defense factor: 0
Armor: 2
Morale bonus: 4
Walk speed: 10
Run speed: 22
Charge speed: 24
Ammo: 36
Reload: 4 sec
Range 100 meters
Accuracy: 0.6
Lethality: 12%
Power: 1
Armor modifier: 1.0

As soon as I can find Murabbatin stats I will adjust them and edit them into this list.
*Skirmishers shield has to be considered.*
Korean spearmen could be renamed as Song spearmen?
I noticed morale bonus of Japanese units increases in multiples of 2 so not sure if my suggested '7' is allowable, I hope it is

..........Orda

[barocca]

it is a big roster! (the "missing" song could still be added)

i have actually considerd a korean campaign
(there is even plenty of room on the campaign map to add korea!)
(mind you that would be a big task, much of the startpos file is handwritten!)

unit roster, it is still do-able too - i have a couple of medium and heavy cav bif's that are not yet assigned that would suit,
also i have a couple of infantry units that are not assigned

the thing i am most lacking is crossbowmen, there are not enough different bif's, but i think i can solve that by painting designs on shields.

will have another look through the roster of unused animations and see what could be done for fun.