Man of the Hour Emergency Senate Session

**TinCow** · 07-05-2008, 23:17

I am calling a brief Emergency Session to deal with a situation that is not addressed in the rules and which I think is significant. Essentially, Tristan won a Heroic Victory and got a Man of the Hour adoption offer for it. FLYdude then rejected the MoH for completely valid IC reasons. I have frozen the game because if we move on beyond this point, it will be impossible to change this result if we feel it is needed. I want to make this short and sweet to keep the game going, so if you have an opinion, please respond promptly.

This issue arises from these two posts:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

The question is whether the Megas (or anyone else, really) should get a say in whether a MoH is accepted. This is not even remotely touched upon in the rules. Normally this would mean that the Megas gets to do whatever he wants, and FLYdude has played it that way, which is 100% proper. That said, I do not think anyone should get a say in a MoH adoption other than the person who achieved it. Our family tree is very small at the moment, and there are several roleplaying perks that come with being on the tree, in addition to the obvious ones of possibly becoming Caesar and Basileus. One of the acknowledged problems with using so many RBGs is that the family tree pool is very, very small and will likely remain that way.

Thus, getting onto the family tree is a huge accomplishment and turning down a MoH when it is offered can be a major blow to a player. One of my original concepts for LotR was to make battles very dangerous, but to also make them highly rewarding. The idea was the low-level avatars will want to fight battles to become known, earn rank and land, etc. Then, when they have achieved a powerful position, they will sit back and manage their Houses and send other people off to do the dangerous work. No need to risk your life at that point. If we allow block of MoH adoptions, then we are removing one of the most significant perks of fighting from the game.

I also do not think it makes much sense IC for the Megas to be able to prevent such an adoption. The Family Tree is a Royal House thing. It might make sense for the Basileus to be able to block it, but on an IC level that seems to be an option that is beyond the Megas' control unless the Megas is the Basileus. Even then I'm not keen on allowing a Basileus block either for the reasons stated above, plus the delay in the game figuring out whether it will be allowed.

I would like to propose the following OOC Amendment:

E2.1: Rule 1.2 will have the following text added to it: "If a Man of the Hour adoption is offered to an avatar, the choice of whether to accept it is entirely up to the player who controls the avatar."

I will give 24 hours of discussion on this issue. If more time is needed for debate, I will allow it after that point. If it isn't, we will then vote on it.

Sorry for the delay this is causing, but I think it's important we hammer this out right here.

**Ferret** · 07-05-2008, 23:25

I agree that the Megas should have no say, it is nothing to do with them. However as in real life it should be up to the adopter whether it happens or not. You cannot force someone to adopt you...

edit: and likewise you should not be able to force someone to be adopted. They should both have to want it...

**TinCow** · 07-05-2008, 23:38

EF is correct that IC the adopter would have a say, but the adoption spot on the tree has no real logic to it whatsoever. It is entirely possible for there to be a person who would love to have the adoptee as part of their family, but instead the game sticks them under the adoptee's worst enemy. While giving the adopter no say in the matter isn't realistic IC, I commented in the initial rules discussion that the family tree relationships should only be roleplayed if they fit. If adoptions don't make sense IC, then just pretend they haven't occurred. The Family Tree doesn't have to be thought of as an exclusive marital/blood lineage. Think of it more like a list of prominent people. If the IC relationships fit with the tree relationships, then people can roleplay them as such. If they don't, just pretend they don't exist.

If that's true, then the only disadvantage to preventing the adopter from getting a say is that they are now deprived of a slot for a child. While this is indeed unfortunate, I don't think it's that big a deal. Many people on the family tree will never 'earn' their way to that spot in the first place. There are two underage sons who will eventually become available. Whoever takes those avatars will not have 'earned' a spot on the tree. Under the circumstances, I think a person who has taken a RBG and done well enough to get a spot on the tree deserves his spot more than one of those new players deserves having all their 'offspring' slots open.

When it comes down to it, I think family relationships in this game need to take a back seat to advancement of the main avatars. If you can somehow get a family going in the game, great, but it should not be considered a right for anyone.

**Privateerkev** · 07-05-2008, 23:27

I say the OOC importance of getting avatars up on the tree, overrides the IC desires of some characters to limit the tree.

The tree needs to be fleshed out more or we will lose the game, through no fault of our own.

And I agree MoH's are a cool thing for players to go for. If a character has no land, titles, or House, he can still achieve distinction through superb accomplishments on the battlefield.

So, I will vote yes on this one.

**Ferret** · 07-05-2008, 23:35

The tree will not be wiped out if we do not have MotHs....

Look at the M2 hotseat, no adoptions were allowed with that and no one got wiped out from lack of members. The RGBs do not affect the rate of children being born, MotH does and besides I'm sure quite a lot of people will agree.

**flyd** · 07-05-2008, 23:43

I'm sort of agreeing with the IC side more, because strange adoptions would force RP on people. In KOTR, we had the crazy succession mechanics, and it was interesting... but strange. And it was always seen as a "problem" to be worked around. I propose

E2.2: Rule 1.2 will have the following text added to it: "If a Man of the Hour adoption is offered to an avatar, the choice of whether to accept it is entirely up to the avatar who is the adopter."

In that the Megas should not decide it, but the adopter should. I hope the "avatar" deciding it lanugage implies it's meant to be an IC decision.

**Ibn-Khaldun** · 07-05-2008, 23:50

Perhaps those in royal family can have only one or two avatars who have hot the MotH event.
This way they will have slots for their children too AND people who have got the MotH event will have chance to become a royal family member.

EDIT: Zim beat me to it

**TinCow** · 07-05-2008, 23:57

Ok, how about this for a compromise:

E2.1: Rule 1.2 will have the following text added to it: "If a Man of the Hour adoption is offered, the choice of whether to accept the adoption will be up to the adoptee, unless the adopter already has 2 non-natural children, in which case the choice will be up to the adopter."

This would allow people to be adopted in most situations, while still giving everyone the opportunity to have at least 2 children the old fashioned way.

**Ibn-Khaldun** · 07-05-2008, 23:40

I think that if player have won "Heroic Victory" then he should be able to decide whether he likes to be adopted by that character in to the royal family or not..

**Zim** · 07-05-2008, 23:50

I have to say I don't like the Edict as written (preFlydude's suggested change

). I could see a compromise that would at least keep a couple of each fm's child slots open for natural children working (not really important for Kosmas, who I suspect won't have kids, but I could see Ignoramus and TheFlax each hoping their character's line continues). Perhaps at least two slots could have to be left open for a fm's natural children, unless the fm's player oks further adoptions.

If heroic victories were difficult to achieve I could see allowing unlimited MOTHs, but they're not, really. I'm a mediocre player compared to most of the people here and I used to make a game out of seeing how many historical battle markers I could get in a single province. Backed into a corner once in a BC succession game (a mod I think is generally balanced better for battles than SS 4.1) I tore through something like 10+ near full stacks, each with a decent mix of troops, and 90% of the fighting was done by a unit of general's bodyguards (far smaller in unit size than SS ones) and a unit of merc knights.

Heroic victories aren't hard to get, even if you're careful with your general. The AI just isn't up to the task of beating players as nerdy as we are.

Again, there are many players here who can beat me with one arm tied behind their back.

I understand the worry about how small the Imperial Family is. If it makes things easier, no matter how this is resolved I will leave all of Kosmas' slots open to any adoptee or MOTH at all, starting with Methodios'.