The Midgard Saga II [Concluded]

[discovery1]

Hmmm any explanation? I don't usually visit the chat

I was copying your name into something I was saying, and didn't catch the f. Hence actionHeir was written and Husar said 'no action hero' or so.

[Craterus]

I'm more concerned with the non-voters:



Why? OK, scratch glyphz (lynched) & scottishranger (WoG'd); that's still 9 players sitting on their hands. Jotuns, Kings & Warriors waiting for the peasantry to self-destruct?

Please explain yourselves. Major FoS on them all until then. Sitting out gives the town even less info to anlayze, and thus weakens it further. No wonder we're killing pro-town roles in desperation.

I'm beginning to smell "end-of-the-game", "SURPRISE!" reveals, leading to a major battle between Jotun and King as a strategy. Good luck with that, if all the Gods and peasants are dead. Jotun ftw.

--edit--



Factually incorrect, sir. At least one Townie PM did have a runic inscription. What is your source for this misinformation?

I forgot. Was going to vote Kage last night but his depressed defeatism has convinced me he's a townie.

Needless to say, yesterday's vote was a foregone conclusion and I'd still say it was probably the best action for the town. Had glyphz been a bit more clear (i.e. his role isn't actually neutral by the sounds of it) then we could have lynched someone else and used him.

[Crazed Rabbit]

I'm more concerned with the non-voters:



Why? OK, scratch glyphz (lynched) & scottishranger (WoG'd); that's still 9 players sitting on their hands. Jotuns, Kings & Warriors waiting for the peasantry to self-destruct?

Please explain yourselves. Major FoS on them all until then. Sitting out gives the town even less info to anlayze, and thus weakens it further. No wonder we're killing pro-town roles in desperation.

I'm beginning to smell "end-of-the-game", "SURPRISE!" reveals, leading to a major battle between Jotun and King as a strategy. Good luck with that, if all the Gods and peasants are dead. Jotun ftw.

--edit--



Factually incorrect, sir. At least one Townie PM did have a runic inscription. What is your source for this misinformation?

I've been building a computer and working lately. I've slept 1.5 hours in the last 39 hours.

I might well have voted for glyphz/Loki, but Sigurd played us by making him on the good side. Well acted by glyphz, though.

We cannot rely on Midgard I as complete truth. I can't say the lynching of Loki was completely rash, however, based on what the town knew.

CR

[shlin28]

Factually incorrect, sir. At least one Townie PM did have a runic inscription. What is your source for this misinformation?

I don't have a runic thingy, maybe Firefox blocks it or something? because I think pever said he used Firefox and he can't see it either.

[KukriKhan]

I don't have a runic thingy, maybe Firefox blocks it or something? because I think pever said he used Firefox and he can't see it either.

Maybe.

So he took his personal, individual experience, and gave universal advice?

Originally Posted by pevergreen
@ CA: Townie PM's have no runic inscription.

::decides to download Firefox again, to see if it's true::

Setting that aside, I'm sure many, if not all, the non-voters have excellent excuses for their non-participation. Exams (always a favorite), dog died, war in Georgia, got bored, whatever.

At the risk of totally pissing off 9 people all at once: I have a life, too. I work 10-12 hours a day and spend a few other hours moderating the rough-and-tumble backroom forum, but I suit up and show up every day here, and read all 30+ pages of posts, and contribute what I can because I said I would. My word ("in") is my bond; or else my word means nothing.

I know it's 'only a game, dude', but do you realize the work the host has to do to try to make our experience enjoyable? Non-participation, after promising to be 'in' = disrespect of that work, and a cavalier disregard for the work/efforts of the other players.

The honorable thing to do, in my opinion, if I cannot do what I said I would do (that is: play this game) would be to contact the host, apologize for wasting his time and effort, and ask to be character-killed; then making a public announcement, that "stuff came up" (as it always does. No argument there) that prevents me from participating in the effort.

Anything less is cowardly, lazy, and 'personally convenient'. In my opinion.

These are not buy-off-the-shelf, play-til-you're-bored, then disregard games. These are products constructed by our peers and friends to amuse, entertain, educate, and [u]involve[/i] our other peers and friends. We should treat them as such.

And so, I step off my and yield to the next speaker.

[Csargo]

I'm not sure what to make of that...plus that's my smilie

[seireikhaan]

I don't have a runic thingy, maybe Firefox blocks it or something? because I think pever said he used Firefox and he can't see it either.

Wrong, I had it. I use firefox.

FoS: Pever and Shlin.

[Sarathos]

Wow, yet another God gone. What was the case on glyphz anyway? And why did everyone push it so hard? Am I missing something..?

[GeneralHankerchief]

You know Kukri, I do believe you've constructed the ideal persona to hide behind should your opportunity to play as a mafioso ever come up, if it hasn't done so already.

[KukriKhan]

You know Kukri, I do believe you've constructed the ideal persona to hide behind should your opportunity to play as a mafioso ever come up, if it hasn't done so already.

LoL. I guess you're right. In 12 games, I've had 1 "power role" and 11 townie roles. I actually wonder, given your observation, if the world would look different if I were ever a maf. Probably, my bias would change, I guess.

[discovery1]

Or maybe not.....

Wow, yet another God gone. What was the case on glyphz anyway? And why did everyone push it so hard? Am I missing something..?

He was the official loki, so people didn't trust him. And he died. huge mistake.

[shlin28]

Wrong, I had it. I use firefox.

FoS: Pever and Shlin.

I looked at the html code for the pm, and still can't find it... So... I'm guessing Sigurd sent some people role pms with runes and others without. (either that or I am blind)

Back 20 or something pages, someone had posted some runes, but I could not see them, did anybody else have the same problem as me?

[Privateerkev]

Setting that aside, I'm sure many, if not all, the non-voters have excellent excuses for their non-participation. Exams (always a favorite), dog died, war in Georgia, got bored, whatever.

At the risk of totally pissing off 9 people all at once: I have a life, too. I work 10-12 hours a day and spend a few other hours moderating the rough-and-tumble backroom forum, but I suit up and show up every day here, and read all 30+ pages of posts, and contribute what I can because I said I would. My word ("in") is my bond; or else my word means nothing.

I know it's 'only a game, dude', but do you realize the work the host has to do to try to make our experience enjoyable? Non-participation, after promising to be 'in' = disrespect of that work, and a cavalier disregard for the work/efforts of the other players.

The honorable thing to do, in my opinion, if I cannot do what I said I would do (that is: play this game) would be to contact the host, apologize for wasting his time and effort, and ask to be character-killed; then making a public announcement, that "stuff came up" (as it always does. No argument there) that prevents me from participating in the effort.

Anything less is cowardly, lazy, and 'personally convenient'. In my opinion.

These are not buy-off-the-shelf, play-til-you're-bored, then disregard games. These are products constructed by our peers and friends to amuse, entertain, educate, and [u]involve[/i] our other peers and friends. We should treat them as such.

And so, I step off my and yield to the next speaker.

Here here...

I ranted about this extensively in Mafia VIII so I won't repeat the whole thing here. But I grow tired of watching dozens of players say "in" and then disappear. I suspect it has to do with whether they get a "cool" role or not. If they get the standard townie PM, they seem to melt away and have "exams." Now, before I hear the inevitable "school is busy" excuses, I'll make clear that I am a grad-student. (Working on a Masters degree for those not familiar with US higher education terminology.) While I am taking a break from school at the moment, I know what it is like to work full time and do school full time. And I remember what it is like to have to read 1 book a day and skim 6 more just to keep up with your research project.

So yeah, while I won't claim to have had the workload of Doctoral or Law students, I do know what it is like to be busy with school. Well, my answer is simple. If school is that busy, then don't commit yourself to games until school lightens up. It is like, if you are on a baseball team with 9 players, but 1 only shows up to some of the games. Well, now the game sucks a little more for everyone. It would be better if that person would just quit so someone who will show up to every game can play.

And I notice it starts to breed a culture of laziness in these games. Many people seem to want to only play these games "part-time." And if any of us try to get the town talking or punish lurkers, we get spotlighted as "pushing too hard." It becomes this never ending cycle. People are lazy so it becomes harder to push the town yourself. So then it is easier for you if you just give up and play lazy. But that makes it much harder for the town to win. So you end up having two choices. You can either give up and play lazy or swim upstream and weather the inevitable "he is too talkative" or "he is leading the town too much" or "he is pushing too hard" comments.

I enjoy these games because of the interaction. But they would bore the hell out of me if 30+ people simply abstained every turn because they were too busy/lazy to actually play the game.

[discovery1]

After drinking alot, there is only one thing I can do.

Challenge: Warmaster Horus

[Sigurd]

Challenges so far:

1. pevergreen vs. Kukrikhaan
2. discovery1 vs. Warmaster Horus

[LittleGrizzly]

I still think we did the right thing regarding Glyhpz, there were inconsistency's in his story which bothered me, like his neutrality he mentioned to PK, but his role pm had him down as a good guy, so either he was lieing or his pm was fake, i happen to think it was probably the latter, the fact loki joined the jotun in midgard I was enough to sell me on the idea....

Well we may have made our first good lynch we still seem a bit aimless, unless you count KK's vote for CA or GH's constant holmganging as a sign of mafia we haven't really got any leads, and we seem to have given up on trying to control the holmgang as people just seem to challenge if they want to... we need to get organised and we need some leads...

[pevergreen]

I have no runes on my PM, either in FF3, or IE7. Check the thread, I have always maintained that I have no runes. AFAIK, no counter knowledge has been made public about a base TOWNIE role, not a War Vet etc, having runes.

As to why I didnt vote, I just didnt. No reason, I kept meaning to vote glyphz, but never did in my posts. thats all.

[naut]

ActionHero! Hehe...

[TinCow]

Second guessing the Loki lynch is wrong. That role was known to be a neutral role that could choose town or Jotun at will. Leaving a role like that alive is a massive mistake. While it appears that Loki was indeed exclusively pro-town based on the write-up, there was no way for us to know that beforehand. It is regretable that Loki is dead, but it was still the right thing to do at the time.

[KukriKhan]

I have no runes on my PM, either in FF3, or IE7. Check the thread, I have always maintained that I have no runes. AFAIK, no counter knowledge has been made public about a base TOWNIE role, not a War Vet etc, having runes.

As to why I didnt vote, I just didnt. No reason, I kept meaning to vote glyphz, but never did in my posts. thats all.

Post #575. But the issue is probably irrelevant (unless you're fibbing about being townie/human).

[woad&fangs]

Okay, I have been having a thought. There is about 6 lords and each of the lords has to have at least one and probably multiple war veterans. I could post the first 3 lines of the war veteran role PM. Then GH can post the 4th line in the PM and someone can post the 5th line and so on and so on until all of the war veterans have revealed. 6+ people proven innocent would be very valuable especially with the Jotun only killing 1 person every night. Depending on the lenght of the townie Pm we might be able to do the same thing with that role. What does everybody think of my idea?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Second guessing the Loki lynch is wrong. That role was known to be a neutral role that could choose town or Jotun at will. Leaving a role like that alive is a massive mistake. While it appears that Loki was indeed exclusively pro-town based on the write-up, there was no way for us to know that beforehand. It is regretable that Loki is dead, but it was still the right thing to do at the time.

Well, it's wrong in that it is a waste of time. From the post-mortem write up, it really appears that he was a god. We may have offed a pro-town asset or maybe not. Regardless, it's done.

My king having now shuffled off to the afterlife, I am no longer beholden to anyone else save victory in general. Whom should I challenge so as to see if they are Jotun (by having them wipe the floor with me), or are we still to skeptical of that as a tactic?

[Andres]

After drinking alot, there is only one thing I can do.

Challenge: Warmaster Horus

Ok, I am sober. In fact, it's been more than a month since I've been drunk.

Challenge : discovery1

Because I envy his drunken state.

[Privateerkev]

My king having now shuffled off to the afterlife, I am no longer beholden to anyone else save victory in general. Whom should I challenge so as to see if they are Jotun (by having them wipe the floor with me), or are we still to skeptical of that as a tactic?

The problem is, it puts a possible pro-town role at risk. If you pick the wrong person, you might kill them or put the spotlight on them.

Holmganging is looking more and more like a bad idea from a purely strategic and game mechanics point of view. If we had more people in the game, and less power-town roles, then I could see it being used like lynching. Where we would do one a turn just to see what we get out of it.

But, with so many roles around we need to keep alive, and with the Holmgang having so little utility as a Jotun finder, it seems to do far more harm than good. If we use it, basically all we can do is cross our fingers that one of the participants is Jotun and that he dies despite his probably high Holmgang stats. I just don't like the odds.

[KukriKhan]

Okay, I have been having a thought. There is about 6 lords and each of the lords has to have at least one and probably multiple war veterans. I could post the first 3 lines of the war veteran role PM. Then GH can post the 4th line in the PM and someone can post the 5th line and so on and so on until all of the war veterans have revealed. 6+ people proven innocent would be very valuable especially with the Jotun only killing 1 person every night. Depending on the lenght of the townie Pm we might be able to do the same thing with that role. What does everybody think of my idea?

I think that bears serious consideration. We should discuss it more to see if there are any downsides (aside from the obvious one of naming targets for the Jotun).

If we do a mass-reveal in the way you describe, if all cooperate, the Jotun will also be revealed/deduced. The more I think of it, the more I like it.

@Seamus: I hold in high esteem and honor your offer to be killed 'for the team'. I suggest: let's tighten up w&f's plan, so we can better identify your (our) Jotun targets.

--edit--
I just checked my rolePM; it consists of 5 sentences, + a character name, holmgang score, and Norse runic inscription. So: 5 townies could self-reveal using w&f's process. And there's one possible problem: If pevergreen really is a townie, but didn't get a runic inscription, maybe Sigurd custom-made rolePMs, with just enough variation in detail that we couldn't use them to positively i.d. good guys.

[GeneralHankerchief]

@woad: A similar strategy was tried in Midgard I, with horrible results. I don't think it's that good of an idea - Sigurd may have supplied the Jotun with replacement PMs again.

@PK: Loosen up a bit, dude. At one kill per night, we can afford the Holmgangs. Mafia VIII had a similar amount of players and lasted nine rounds at two kills per night. Considering the fact that Midgard is more active than Mafia VIII (ie less WoGs), it's not as damning as you think.

[Motep]

I speak against the reveal idea, as with all of the private revealings going around, the Jotun probably have a copy of several of the roles.

[discovery1]

I can do multiple challenges right?


Challenge:Eliit Tuhkur

Oh, no. Thanks TinCrow

[TinCow]

I can do multiple challenges right?

No.

Players can not spam challenge. Only one challenge pr. player will be added to the list of possible Holmgangs (usually the first).

[Sigurd]

Still about 10 minutes left until the deadline.
Any more challenges?

Challenges so far:

1. pevergreen vs. Kukrikhaan
2. discovery1 vs. Warmaster Horus
3. Andres vs. discovery1