Another fun chart

[Crazed Rabbit]

Most of them in the US involve people who are already criminals and involved in drugs, and often happen in cities with bans on guns (NYC, Washington DC [still, the laws haven't changed yet], Chicago).

I don't think state comparisions are as valid as international ones due to the much easier transporting of weapons mainly...

Bah. Completely useless argument - why do the states with low gun control not have the same high crime rates?

CR

[LittleGrizzly]

Bah. Completely useless argument - why do the states with low gun control not have the same high crime rates?

Well its not just the weapons that can be transported, criminals from states with lax gun control could go over to states with high gun control to commit thier crimes, which is another reason i think state comparisions are less valid, in one state there will be little to stop someone getting a gun, they can then just switch states and be in a state where there are very strict laws. The legal homeowner is now outgunned because of differences in state laws, i can't say im an expert but im fairly sure NYC is a pretty violent place anyway....

[Tribesman]

Edit: Apology retracted. To answer Tribesman's question: Mexico.

Mexico hasn't banned guns , you are allowed shotguns , you are allowed rifles , you are allowed handguns .
Damn them things do kinda appear like guns to me .
Now of course there are restrictions , rifles must not be above .22 and hanguns not above .38 (though there is an extra clause there that does not allow .357 handguns)
Hey Don if you as an American want to go shooting down Mexcio way with your guns you can ,you have to get a permit though , you have to get a permit even if you are only carrying ammo and not a gun , there are big penalties for bringing a gun across the border without a permit , though those penalties have been reduced for first offences as they were having too many problems with gringos just forgetting they were packing when they went down south and 5 years for an unlicenced firearm was seen as a bit tough for genuine mistakes .
If in doubt contact your State Dept. and they will tell you about taking your toys out foriegn .

[Xiahou]

Now of course there are restrictions , rifles must not be above .22

In other words, they're banned. -.22?? I guess BB guns and pellet rifles are safe though.

[Tribesman]

In other words, they're banned. -.22?? I guess BB guns and pellet rifles are safe though.

It seems like someone has a problem with the English language . If guns are allowed then it is pretty certin that a statement of guns are banned is best described as complete bollox

So a gun that takes the standard American sports gun cartridge = a gun ban
Tell me Xiahou , them soldier thingies out in Iraq , what calibre are their rifles ? are they .22 , .22 or.22 ?
Wow americas army doesn't have guns .
What a pathetic post you made Xiahou

[SwordsMaster]

Right, boys, cold shower. Let's keep it civil.

To get back to DC's post about the social contract issue. So, you are of the opinion, that your right to carry guns will allow you to defend yourself and your possessions against intruding agents. However, while the original purpose of gun ownership (to allow the people to protect themselves from a tyrannical government) is very respectable, if you did attempt to shoot a police officer who entered your house unannounced no amount of appeals to the constitution would help you avoid conviction.

So while i understand what others have said about personal self defense, I'd like to point out that these muggings and assaults that you speak of are not restricted to the US, and also happen in Italy, France, Poland and even Monaco. And yet their overall murder rates are lower. And personally, when I'm walking down the street, I wouldn't want to think there is some nutjob playing with his gun by the window and I just might get shot. I know my chances of getting run over by traffic are higher, but it is still an uninviting prospect.

The other issue you point at, the abundance of gun crime in places that have banned it, seems self evident. You cannot ban guns in a small part of the country, and do nothing elsewhere. This will only attract armed crime to this - now defenseless - city.

I guess what I'm trying to examine is precisely this issue of social contract. When the constitution was written - the last quarter of the XVIII century, individuals had less freedom, but greater independence than they have today. The ideas of nationhood and globalisation have given us more freedom, but have eroded our independence within the system. So perhaps the rules of the social contract should be reconsidered.

The amount of legislation per capita in the world is, in my opinion, quite appalling. Have we lost all ability to make our own decisions?

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Right, boys, cold shower. Let's keep it civil.

To get back to DC's post about the social contract issue. So, you are of the opinion, that your right to carry guns will allow you to defend yourself and your possessions against intruding agents. However, while the original purpose of gun ownership (to allow the people to protect themselves from a tyrannical government) is very respectable, if you did attempt to shoot a police officer who entered your house unannounced no amount of appeals to the constitution would help you avoid conviction.

There was just a thread on this a couple weeks ago--a drug dealer who shot and killed a police man who busted into his house was let off.

The other issue you point at, the abundance of gun crime in places that have banned it, seems self evident. You cannot ban guns in a small part of the country, and do nothing elsewhere. This will only attract armed crime to this - now defenseless - city.

It should be evident that you can't ban guns at all in the US. We have giant borders to the north and south. We can't keep drugs and illegal immigrants out, you think we can keep guns out?

Hey, how many times have you all had to defend yourselves from an attacker *EDIT: what's more, when a gun was the only suitable defense and a melee weapon would not have sufficed?

Just about any time a woman is attacked by a man a melee weapon will not suffice. Same with an attack by multiple people. Guns equalize things. I'd rather have a pistol against two guys with machine guns than a knife against two with knives. Common sense.

I know the American media suggests the opposite, but not everyone is out to get you.

No one thinks they are, nice job trying to paint all Americans as paranoid nutjobs though.

Also, a city with a ban on guns isn't 'defenseless', there are such things as police forces but I know you all think you are more competent than those trained professionals, it doesn't surprise when such experts accidentally shoot family members while defending their property and all things American.

The police are limited in how much protection they can provide.

[Craterus]

Just about any time a woman is attacked by a man a melee weapon will not suffice. Same with an attack by multiple people. Guns equalize things. I'd rather have a pistol against two guys with machine guns than a knife against two with knives. Common sense.

That wasn't the question, did I need to bold and capitalise the YOU?

No one thinks they are, nice job trying to paint all Americans as paranoid nutjobs though.

Really? I read about a few statistics: crime has gone down in the US, but the reporting of crime in the media has gone waaay up, and with that so has the sales of firearms?

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

So a gun that takes the standard American sports gun cartridge = a gun ban
Tell me Xiahou , them soldier thingies out in Iraq , what calibre are their rifles ? are they .22 , .22 or.22 ?

Similar to a Remington .223

EDIT: You are aware that 5.56x45mm NATO and .22 Long Rifle (which I presume you're talking about) are a little different, right?

Anyways, I suppose a good example is Brazil - very, very strict firearms control in one of the world's largest economies, and yet I somehow don't think the murder rate is that good.

[HoreTore]

Anyways, I suppose a good example is Brazil - very, very strict firearms control in one of the world's largest economies, and yet I somehow don't think the murder rate is that good.

Take a look at the slum area of Brazil and you'll see why they have crime.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Take a look at the slum area of Brazil and you'll see why they have crime.

They have very strict firearms control laws - but still manage to have 25% more gun deaths than the United States.

[Xiahou]

It seems like someone has a problem with the English language . If guns are allowed then it is pretty certin that a statement of guns are banned is best described as complete bollox

So a gun that takes the standard American sports gun cartridge = a gun ban
Tell me Xiahou , them soldier thingies out in Iraq , what calibre are their rifles ? are they .22 , .22 or.22 ?
Wow americas army doesn't have guns .
What a pathetic post you made Xiahou

You really dont know anything about guns do you?

EDIT: You are aware that 5.56x45mm NATO and .22 Long Rifle (which I presume you're talking about) are a little different, right?

Very different.


Guess which is which?

[Crazed Rabbit]

It seems like someone has a problem with the English language . If guns are allowed then it is pretty certin that a statement of guns are banned is best described as complete bollox

So a gun that takes the standard American sports gun cartridge = a gun ban
Tell me Xiahou , them soldier thingies out in Iraq , what calibre are their rifles ? are they .22 , .22 or.22 ?
Wow americas army doesn't have guns .
What a pathetic post you made Xiahou

Wow.

The caliber the US uses is not .22. You are completely and utterly wrong.

If you cannot comprehend the difference between a .22 and what the US forces use, you shouldn't be in this thread, but sit quietly and try to learn something.

The .223 is very different from the .22 - look at the picture Xiahou posted.

Your 'reasoning' about what constitutes a ban on firearms is unsound. A ban that forbids all but the lowest* rifle caliber and almost all useful-for-self-defense handgun calibers is basically equivalent to a general ban on firearms. You've played this smoke and mirror game before, but your as wrong as ever.

And personally, when I'm walking down the street, I wouldn't want to think there is some nutjob playing with his gun by the window and I just might get shot.

Do you have any evidence of such an event happening, once, much less a statistically significant number of times?

CR
*There are some .17 caliber bullets, but those are actually pellet gun sized and not that widespread even in the US.

[Tribesman]

What a bunch of muppets , is a .22 a .22 or not ?
wow a picture of a big .22 and a small .22 please could you do a picture of a big 9mm and a small 9mm just for comparison

The caliber the US uses is not .22. You are completely and utterly wrong.

The only people who are wrong are those who insist that a country that does allow firearms is a country that doesn't allow firearms .
Like this one for example

Your 'reasoning' about what constitutes a ban on firearms is unsound.

Let me remind you Rabbit as you cannot seem to grasp the basics , the claim was countries that have "outlawed pesonal firearm ownership " .....Latin countries ...bollox .....mexico ... more bollox .
It is not as you attempt to claim "basically equivalent to general ban on firearms" in fact it is absolutely nothing at all resembling a general ban on firearms , it is specific regulations on certain firearms like what most countries have .
So for all your ...

you shouldn't be in this thread, but sit quietly and try to learn something.

given your long history of completely screwing up just about every time you talk about firearm regulations in other countries perhaps you should just sit quietly Rabbit

[woad&fangs]

Tribes, if you think the picture was showing a "big 22" then you are the one talking bollox.


About the Mexico ban.

22s are only useful for paper targets and squirrels/rabbits. They are trash for self defense.

As for the pistols, according to you, .45, .44mag, and .357 are all banned in Mexico and they are the most common calibers for self defense. Also, it effectively bans .38 cal guns as well since most .38s are built to also use .357s. Lower calibers then a .357 that I know of are .32(hard to find) and 22s(crap for defensive purposes).

So yes, for our purposes here, the Mexican law is a gun ban.

[Tribesman]

No, you're again wrong.

A ".22" is only a .22 caliber round - most commonly the .22LR. It does not include every cartridge that starts with .22xxx under the sun. A .22 round is not a .223 round, and so .22 is not an umbrella term that fits a .223 or a .224 caliber.

Lets see , a nice little thing from "guns and ammo" on .22 rifles

What does all this mean? Faster cartridges are going to wear out barrels more quickly than slower cartridges. There is no real threshold that I'm aware of, but the very fast .22s like the .22-250, .220 Swift and .223 WSSM are going to wear out barrels much faster than milder .22s like the .222 and .223. The .223 WSSM has been reported to be a barrel burner, and it might be in some rifles, but compared to what? The cartridge is so new that I think this is a premature rap. From what I've seen in the field this past season I don't think there's much difference between it and the .22-250 or .220 Swift.

did you get this bit
but the very fast .22s like the .22-250, .220 Swift and .223 WSSM
and this bit
faster than milder .22s like the .222 and .223.
So Rabbit you is talking bollox , you can neck down a .303 cartridge to take a .22 bullet and it is a .22 round and the gun that uses it is a .22 gun .

Well, let's move on, as its clear tribesy will argue a country that kills you on sight if you have anything but a one shot, .17 caliber derringer that took five years and 50k to acquire legally hasn't banned guns.

And I would be right because a one shot pistol is a gun isn't it . Try again rabbit .
Oh I forgot , for the sake of this topic banning private gun ownership does not mean banning private gun ownership .


And just for rabbit .

High Standard HDM (Suppressed Pistol, .22 LR) (Navy SEALs and USMC Force Recon)
Ruger Mk II (Integrally Suppressed variant; Automatic Pistol, .22 LR) (Navy SEALs)