Intersting case

[KrooK]

Accoding to polish newspaper "Rzeczpospolita" (generally very serious newspaper) into Lithuania investigation is executed against Icchak Arad, former president of Yad Vashen Institute. He is accused of robbing, belonging to NKWD (Russian version of Gestapo) and taking part into some murders.

I wonder if its true.
Of course Israel called it "scandal" however Israel always call scandal all this
kind of investigations. On the other hand its hard to believe that NKWD would let its member on leaving USSR and going to Israel straight after war.

[Adrian II]

Accoding to polish newspaper "Rzeczpospolita" (generally very serious newspaper) into Lithuania investigation is executed against Icchak Arad, former president of Yad Vashen Institute. He is accused of robbing, belonging to NKWD (Russian version of Gestapo) and taking part into some murders.

I wonder if its true.
Of course Israel called it "scandal" however Israel always call scandal all this
kind of investigations. On the other hand its hard to believe that NKWD would let its member on leaving USSR and going to Israel straight after war.

According to Haaretz the issue is rather different from what you state. Arad was an expert witness in several cases against Lithuanian war criminals and at other times publicly asked that the country address the role of Lithuanians in the murder of Jews during the Holocaust. This has apparently angered right-wing groups in Lithuania.

Krook, I would be interested to know what transpired in Kaniûkai ('Koniuchy'), the village where a Soviet partisan unit according to former partisans attacked the 'German garrison' on January 29, 1944, in which Arad participated.

If you think there is anything to the accusation, your information better be very good. Until now all information has been spread by an antisemitic Lithuanian newspaper, Lietuvos Aidas.

The paper's campaign against Arad and several other (former) Lithaunian Jews began on 27 January, the official day of liberation of Auschwitz. In other articles, Lietuvos Aidas maintains that Eichmann, Heydrich, Himmler and Bormann were Jewish and that the Jews essentially organized their own Holocaust. They claim that Stalin was Jew, too. In fact it seems they claim that all evil in the world is Jewish. Hardly a credible source, I would say.

There appears to be some basis for the accusation, it seems, in memories of participants on various sides of the conflict. The partisans were not popular among the local population and their foraging expeditions ('bombioshkas') among the unwilling peasants often turned into punitive expeditions. These punitive expeditions, in turn, seem to have been encouraged by the Soviets as part of the sovietisation campaign in the newly-conquered territories.

We have been here before, when we discussed the excessive behaviour of Polish Jews during and after the war. I think we can all understand the emotional appeal made by various parties.

Gentlemen, let's try and dissect this case without recourse to crudity and anti-Polish or antisemitic short-cuts. Those do not belong in the Monastery.

[Tribesman]

What was that recent case where Lithuania tried a Soviet officer working with the local partisans for his part in an attack on a group of Lithuanian auxilliary police who were working with the SS ?

[KrooK]

Adrian. I told that I don't think accusations are truth but it should be explained well.
Especially that Lithuanian courts are generally kind for people accused of supporting SS during ww2.

Koniuchy its a long article into polish wikipedia. I will translate when I will be having a bit more time (I hope I manage tomorrow). Here short summary...

Koniuchy is village into Soleczniki region (lithuania) - former Lida region (when it was Poland).
Into 29 may 1944 units count from russian-lithuanian and jewish partizans massacred Poles living there, killing at least 39 civilians (2 years old children including). According to jewish participant Chaim Lazar objective was simply - kill absolutely all civilians. Luckily russo-lithuano-jewish partizans failed and most civilians managed to ran. Short after ww2 jewish and lithuanians sources claimed that into Koniuchy were german garrison and it was objective of attack, however Germans never heard about any of their garrison into village Koniuchy and survivors from massacred told that there were absolutely no garrison there.

This case is being investigated by Institute of National Memore Commision to Investigate Crimes Against Polish Nation (or shortly IPN).

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

What was that recent case where Lithuania tried a Soviet officer working with the local partisans for his part in an attack on a group of Lithuanian auxilliary police who were working with the SS ?

If the case had legal merit (which I'm not saying it does or doesn't), why shouldn't the law be applied to everyone?

[PanzerJaeger]

Especially that Lithuanian courts are generally kind for people accused of supporting SS during ww2.

As bad as that sounds, it is important to remember that many of the Eastern European SS units were formed from young men who had lived through Stalin's oppression and simply wanted to protect their families from the communists and support their new "independence". The Nazis sold service time in the SS as a way to establish themselves and their new nations in the new German order, and many were unfamiliar with some of the SS' more unsavory activities.

This is not to say that they were all good guys, but they were for the most part not hardened Nazis.

Western European SS units - from France, the Netherlands, etc. - were the direct opposite. Very hard core for the most part.

It all depends on the individual nation, but in several Northern East European countries those that helped or served with the Germans are viewed as rather misguided patriots - and that's fairly accurate.

[Adrian II]

If the case had legal merit (which I'm not saying it does or doesn't), why shouldn't the law be applied to everyone?

If it's a matter of equality before the law, the asnwer is very simple: the Luthuanian authorities are profoundly biased in favour of Lithuanian war criminals who fought with the Germans or under German command, including those who actively participated in the Holocaust. I believe only a handful of them have been put on trial. In the light of established Lithuanian complicity in the Holocaust, that number is absurdly low. This is why the U.S. Justice is actively pursuing some of these cases; the Lithuanian authorities wouldn't do it themselves. Arad was a witness is several cases brought by the Americans. That is why he is particularly hated by the Lithuanian right.

[KrooK]

I can't agree with Jager theory. Not at all. Young men from Eastern Europe who joined nazis fought for place for live for their nation. However they defined place for their nations as places when no other nation can live. They commit so many war crimes that I (who don't like commies) have to admit that Russian and polish communist were absolutely agree shooting them.

1) Letovians were perfect members of death camps crews.
2) Ukrainians too - SS commanders were impressed watching their will to kill Jews and Poles.
3) Ukrainian UPA - mentioned topic earlier. Commit extremely cruel war crimes on Poles, Jews and all non Ukrainian people on territory beetwen San and Don. Generally considered as much much more cruel than SS.
4) Ustasze into Croatia and death camp Jasenovac.

On the other hand Israel is protecting Jews who commited war crimes into ww2 and after it.



Now 2nd case.
Informations about that guy were into polish newspaper "Rzeczpospolita". Its probably most impartial ghazette in Poland and no one can connect it with anti semitism. They do not base on any Lithuanian newspaper but on data from lithuanian investigation and interview with Arad when he is replying questions. So that information wrote into that ghazette can be trusted and can't be denied without checking.

This moment I'm reading conversation with Icchak Arad when he confess that he took part into plundering villages and he took part into fights with polish partizans. There is strong evidence that he with other soviet partizans took part into murder of polish partizan.


Anyway this case is interesting example of process into whole world.
Not only Lithuanians don't agree on equality. Israel behave same. Of course on lower scale but same. You asked me about Koniuchy case. I have not ilusions about it. IPN asked Israeli prosecutors for help. According to IPN statements they have very strong evidence. However I'm sure Israel reply something like "Maybe these Jews were there, but they definitely did not commit any crime cause they are Jews and Jews were always victims. And these Jews were into Auschwitz (because all Jews from Eastern Europe were into Auschwitz) so that they are allowed to do everything." They are doing that practically all the time when someone is trying to accuse Jew of anything that he done into ww2. Sad but true -check Morel case.

[Tribesman]

However I'm sure Israel reply something like "Maybe these Jews were there, but they definitely did not commit any crime cause they are Jews and Jews were always victims.

what complete and utter bollox , you keep on mentioning the IPN , why don't you read their bloody site

[KrooK]

Because I had no time like I mentioned earlier and I read earlier news from IPN.
According to their site Israel replied on their asking for law help.
They don't tell about reply so that I didn't read reply yet.

Anyway into Arad case there is something very interesting.
Into todays Lithuania lives dozens of former soviet partizans.
Many of them has blood on their hands. And Adrian is right that is strange that suddenly
prosecutors want catch one Jew, who was just a private during ww2.

[Tribesman]

They don't tell about reply so that I didn't read reply yet.

So you didn't read that the IPN have full access to all the Israeli records on war crimes and the holocaust then and the Israeli commision has full access to all the IPN records .
I bet you didn't read either that the Ukranian government have given awards to IPN staff for their work on documenting and investigating events from that troubled time .

[CBR]

Although history is involved this seems backroom'ish to me...

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

If it's a matter of equality before the law, the asnwer is very simple: the Luthuanian authorities are profoundly biased in favour of Lithuanian war criminals who fought with the Germans or under German command, including those who actively participated in the Holocaust. I believe only a handful of them have been put on trial. In the light of established Lithuanian complicity in the Holocaust, that number is absurdly low. This is why the U.S. Justice is actively pursuing some of these cases; the Lithuanian authorities wouldn't do it themselves. Arad was a witness is several cases brought by the Americans. That is why he is particularly hated by the Lithuanian right.

Then those who actively participated in the Holocaust should be put on trial, but there's no reason that the Soviet shouldn't have been put on trial just because some Lithuanians committed war crimes for the other side.