Pine forest in north africa?

[Havok.]

That.

[Justinian II]

That.

It became extinct much for the same reason that the Forest Elephant (or whatever it was called) did; overuse by humanity, and climate change.

[QuintusSertorius]

Pretty much. Climates and landscapes can change a lot in two to three millenia. North Africa used to be pretty fertile, and the Sahara was nowhere near as big as it is now. Then people over-farmed it and the climate changed as well.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

It is probably an error to see pine forest in the lowlands of Africa (Carthage area). However, on the north side of the mountaings of Africa and Numidia, I'm sure pines grow.

The problem with pine forests is that they are not something that just grow from nothing. A pine forest is actually many generations after the 'birth' of a forest. A pine tree cannot grow in direct sunlight or open areas. For a pine forest to exist, first small scrub trees had to move in, such as oaks. Then, once they are well developed and have started an eco-system, the pines and such will begin to move in. Trees such as Cedars won't grow until these types forests are well developed. A healthy "old growth" forest may take up to a thousand years to come into existance. My point being, if a forest is cleared by man even if it was conifers, it will likely be replaced by broad leaved trees for centuries, leading people to forget that there were ever pines there.

[Tristuskhan]

Pines? What do you call "Pines"?
Pinus pinaster, Pinus pinea and Pinus halepensis do grow in North African lowlands. Close cousins of the Alpine fir grow in the Babers range of Kabylia (Abies numidica) and in the Atlas mountains of modern Morroco (Abies marocana). Moreover, there are Cedars (Cedrus atlantica) from Western Tunisia to the Atlantic and Cypresses are common everywhere down there.

MAA, what you are talking about is Firs, not Pines. Pines and (true) Cedars are typical pionnering species that come during the first stages of forest growth, opening the path for oaks (by the ways oaks are not shrubs, and north african oaks can be both small evergreen shrubby or great deciduous species) and then beeches and firs if the climate is good.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

There are almost no conifers that grow in open arid ground. Around my area, it is always the Black Oaks that come in first after a fire or an unplanted clearcutting. And I said "scrub" not "shrub".

[Tristuskhan]

There are almost no conifers that grow in open arid ground. Around my area, it is always the Black Oaks that come in first after a fire or an unplanted clearcutting. And I said "scrub" not "shrub".

About open and arid ground, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cupressus_dupreziana, sapplings with 30 millimeters of rainfall every year, just an exemple.

Sorry for the scrub/shrub thing, I misread.

But conifers are very different species one to another. All pines species need open sun in their youth. True Cedars (Cedrus sp) also do: pines and cedars are common scrubs for reforestation and stabilisation of mountain slopes in North Africa. Most Spruces also need open sun. Firs (and hemlocks, and most false Cedars -Chamaecyparis sp) need shade and moisture and are a later stage of forest generation. That's my job and I'm in touch with Morrocan forest managers.... I don't know what state is "Jefferson State" but I'm sure it's not around the Mare Nostrum.

An intact Mediterranean forest in antiquity must have looked much like nowadays great oak forests of central france (Loire valley: poor sandy grounds, dry -around 600mm rainfall- and prone to summer aridity)

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

Indeed. I've since talked with the guy I know who I get all my tree info from (he is obsessed with flora ), and he corrected me as well. It only seemed to me that pines take a while, since around here everything is either a tree plantation (immediately replanted with only one or two species) or mismanaged where the oaks have taken over and it takes a while for distant pines to recolonize the land.

You clearly know what you are talking about. Thank you for the info.

[Tellos Athenaios]

But I guess the OP wanted to point out that there were pines in his EB Africa ?

[Tristuskhan]

But I guess the OP wanted to point out that there were pines in his EB Africa ?

And well there ARE pines in RL North Africa too so it should not be such an issue.

[scorepio]

I saw pines in upper North-Africa. ( upper Tunesia)

[Chirurgeon]

When I was writing the Sands of Africa AAR I was using background pics and saw alot of Pine forests. Especially around the Atlas mountains. Also common around Cyrene too.

[Havok.]

Pine forest in there is actually quite different from the idea i had of north africa

[Celtic_Punk]

Pretty much. Climates and landscapes can change a lot in two to three millenia. North Africa used to be pretty fertile, and the Sahara was nowhere near as big as it is now. Then people over-farmed it and the climate changed as well.

im sure rome's salting of carthage's fields didn't help one bit.

fucking bastards. *smacks head* that whole region is hardly what you'd call fertile.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

The salting of the soil is a myth. Beside the fact that Rome now controlled the region and why would you salt you own fields, but salt was extremely expensive. It would be like paving over your enemies fields with gold to punish them.

[dominique]

Back in college, doing my history degree, our Rome history professor told us her hypothesis:

-It was a ritual to defile Carthage's pomerium (it's poeni equivalent). Over time, that fact was overblown into the salinization of all Tunisia...

But it was 15 years ago. I don't know the state of research on that subject, I know it's controversial but I kind of liked the idea of a couple of flamines walking around the ruined city pinching salt around (not though much, mind you, we are romans, so we are cheap asses) and chanting old sabinian/etruscan psalms while the legionnaries were busy looting and not giving a damn about them. The evidence seems scant though.

[Havok.]

The salting of the soil is a myth. Beside the fact that Rome now controlled the region and why would you salt you own fields, but salt was extremely expensive. It would be like paving over your enemies fields with gold to punish them.

A myth? well i guess History Channel is somewhat wrong then

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

A myth? well i guess History Channel is somewhat wrong then

The history channel, wrong? Never! [/sarcasm]

[Havok.]

The history channel, wrong? Never! [/sarcasm]