Financial crisis ripples through

**Adrian II** · 07-16-2008, 09:51

Originally Posted by drone

Exactly. Are we capitalists here, or are we pinko-socialists?

No, you're a bunch of whiners.

First of all, the two F's hold over half the American mortgage market. If they go, your mortage goes, too. And so does most of the banking sector, so you can kiss your savings and deposits goodbye as well. The resulting national and global divestment may even cost you your job, so you'll have no more income to pay a mortgage from. Suddenly, paying a bit of taxes to help sustain the system seems preferable.

Secondly, this is how capitalism works. It's chaos and the wrong people make money off your back. This is what you wanted. If the U.S. were a socialist economy, it would be chaos and the wrong people would make money off your back. You don't want that, do you?

**Husar** · 07-16-2008, 12:08

Originally Posted by Adrian II

Secondly, this is how capitalism works. It's chaos and the wrong people make money off your back. This is what you wanted. If the U.S. were a socialist economy, it would be chaos and the wrong people would make money off your back. You don't want that, do you?

I've said it before, stock markets etc ruined the world, it's best to buy a house by trading in three tons of fur and then it's your house and noone owes nothing, then you buy ten litres of milk from your neighbor for a nice fur from a bear and after that you go buy a table for some furs etc.
I mean cmon it works, some russian guy making a phonecall and saying "I want to sell this virtual piece of paper saying I own 0.00000001% of this american company (would that equal a ruler or a ruler and a pencil?)." ruining the american economy is just silly.

How many different kinds of stocks and expensive papers you can ~~get ripped off with~~ buy are there anyway? And how can someone make sense out of hundreds of guys shouting at him in this wall street building or whatever it is? This whole kind of economy has gotten so complicated that we cannot even come to one single conclusion as to what is the next best step(probably because with any step one side loses and another wins, there are almost never only winners), how can this chaos ever work?!

The stock market is like legal gambling but unlike casinos it affects the lives of those who do not participate as well.

**KukriKhan** · 07-16-2008, 12:15

Originally Posted by Husar

The stock market is like legal gambling but unlike casinos it affects the lives of those who do not participate as well.

Salient observation.

**SwordsMaster** · 07-16-2008, 13:49

Originally Posted by Husar

I've said it before, stock markets etc ruined the world, it's best to buy a house by trading in three tons of fur and then it's your house and noone owes nothing, then you buy ten litres of milk from your neighbor for a nice fur from a bear and after that you go buy a table for some furs etc.
I mean cmon it works, some russian guy making a phonecall and saying "I want to sell this virtual piece of paper saying I own 0.00000001% of this american company (would that equal a ruler or a ruler and a pencil?)." ruining the american economy is just silly.

How many different kinds of stocks and expensive papers you can ~~get ripped off with~~ buy are there anyway? And how can someone make sense out of hundreds of guys shouting at him in this wall street building or whatever it is? This whole kind of economy has gotten so complicated that we cannot even come to one single conclusion as to what is the next best step(probably because with any step one side loses and another wins, there are almost never only winners), how can this chaos ever work?!

The stock market is like legal gambling but unlike casinos it affects the lives of those who do not participate as well.

.... So participate. It seems obvious. And you can still go and trade furs if you want to. Or rights to sell your furs, or obligations to buy them, or bonds on fur market development projects.

Just because you think the system is complicated, doesn't mean it is useless. Do you know how your mobile phone works? Do you know what the difference is between 2g and 3g?

**Adrian II** · 07-16-2008, 15:58

Originally Posted by Husar

And how can someone make sense out of hundreds of guys shouting at him in this wall street building or whatever it is?

Oh please..

It is called freedom. Billions of people enter into contracts and the result is more or less controlled mayhem. You have to be very modest, very knowledgeable and very sure of political support if you want to effectively intervene in this exercise of freedom.

The stock market is like legal gambling but unlike casinos it affects the lives of those who do not participate as well.

We all influence each other. It is called society. If you want to curb the way we influence each other, you have to curb freedom. And you have to be very careful with that.

I understand all posters in this thread who complain about the expensive bail-outs and the unfairness of it all, but apart from better market regulation there is very little we can do to alleviate the situation.

ON the subject of regulation: as a modern socialist I favour real competition, which means that no matket shall be controlled by a few major competitors. The U.S. used to lead in antitrust law. I hope that it still can. If Diocletian could do it, then so can George W. Bush.

**Husar** · 07-16-2008, 17:13

Originally Posted by Adrian II

We all influence each other. It is called society. If you want to curb the way we influence each other, you have to curb freedom. And you have to be very careful with that.

So there was no society and no freedom before stock markets?

I want more freedom to be lazy instead of having to run around and inform myself on millions of things to be free, freedom is hectic and a lot of work, one really has to wonder why people want it so much, real freedom is walking in a forest, go wherever you want and live from berries, roots and whatever else nature has to offer.

Stock markets are so unromantic.

The difference between 2g and 3g is 1g of course and at around 7 to 9 you black out.

I'm actually seriously intrigued about the stock markets and my views are a bit ambiguous(as always) but you do not hear a lot of positive messages coming from there, usually it's responsible for rising prices, products being released prematurely and companies lieing to drive up the value of their shares, at least that's my impression, apart from that I'm not really into gambling with my money.

I'm always surprised how banks can go bankrupt though, maybe that's the problem when almost all the money you work with isn't your money or doesn't exist anyway.

**Adrian II** · 07-16-2008, 19:05

Originally Posted by Husar

I'm always surprised how banks can go bankrupt though, maybe that's the problem when almost all the money you work with isn't your money or doesn't exist anyway.

See? You have an excellent grasp of the subject, confined in one sentence.

Stock markets are extremely exciting battle grounds of conflicting human interests, pursuits and capabilities. Don't take my word for it. Google 'Liar's Poker and take it from there.

**Oleander Ardens** · 07-16-2008, 20:23

First of all speculation and investment may seem to mean gambling - but there is a key difference. The bank which always wins is in the long run society. Yes crisis and bubbles may happen but the foundations of capitalism, powered by the driving forces of hope, greed and fear are human and deeply natural. And it is this the energy which enabled us to construct ever better ways to raise capital - the ressource of the ressources - to ever accelerate innovation.

Sounds almost too philosophical...