What should an authentic Hellenistic army look like?

[QuintusSertorius]

This often comes up when I'm "building" a stack for the AI when it sends some half-baked 3-unit-army to attack me. I spawn units in the stack to make it up to a proper, balanced force. Or at least I try.

I usually build a Hellenistic Successor army to be roughly thus:
1 x Argyraspides or some other elite phalanx
2 x Pezhetairoi or Kleruchoi or other medium phalanx
4-6 x Levy or Native phalanx
2 x Thureophoroi

Then add something like:
2 x Peltastai/Akontistai
1-2 x slingers
1-2 x Toxotai

Rest fill with cavalry (Prodromoi, Lonchophoroi, Hippakontistai). To me that seems a balanced force, with line infantry, skirmishers and cavalry.

Does it look even remotely like a proper Successor army? Too many skirmishers? Too many weaker phalangites? Not enough other infantry?

[Havok.]

KH is a hellenistic faction but it doesn't uses phalanxes as the main core of the army

[QuintusSertorius]

KH is a hellenistic faction but it doesn't uses phalanxes as the main core of the army

I mean more the Hellenistic Successors then; Makedonia, Seleukids, Ptolemies.

[Havok.]

I mean more the Hellenistic Successors then; Makedonia, Seleukids, Ptolemies.

XD
its ok
i guess what you did is basicly what i do as well
though, when the $$ is favorable, i'd stick with the medium phalanxes only
and i also carry along my armies, two elite units, since holding two flanks can prove a tough job to a regular phalanx

[jhhowell]

Based purely on effectiveness, all I'd say is drop a couple of phalanxes and pick up a couple more solid non-phalanx infantry. Hoplitai, Thorakitai, Galatian Klerouchoi, the various elites, whatever.

And ideally replace the toxotai with real archers (Cretans in the west, anything in the east).

No freakin' clue if that would be at all historical, but it would work well in-game. What you posted would too, I just prefer more flexibility and thus a smaller phalanx line.

[Havok.]

Based purely on effectiveness, all I'd say is drop a couple of phalanxes and pick up a couple more solid non-phalanx infantry. Hoplitai, Thorakitai, Galatian Klerouchoi, the various elites, whatever.

And ideally replace the toxotai with real archers (Cretans in the west, anything in the east).

No freakin' clue if that would be at all historical, but it would work well in-game. What you posted would too, I just prefer more flexibility and thus a smaller phalanx line.

Kretan Archers, said it all

[Gaivs]

Wouldnt Koinon Hellenon be considered Hellenic, not Hellenistic?

[konny]

Does it look even remotely like a proper Successor army? Too many skirmishers? Too many weaker phalangites? Not enough other infantry?

I think the overall quality of the phalanx is to poor. Low end phalanx should not make more than about 1/3 of the army - depending of course if we are talking about a main army, or some secondary force from the Satrapies/Strategies.

1 General
2 Hetairoi/FM
3 Heavy Cavalry
4 Light Cavalry
5 Heavy Spear (Hoplites, Hypaspistai, Thorakitai etc)
6 Heavy Sword (Peltastai Makedonikoi for example)
7 PhalanxA (Argyraspides, Klerouchon Agema)
8 PhalanxB (Klerouchoi Phalangitai, Pezhetairoi)
9 PhalanxB (")
10 PhalanxB (")
11 PhalanxC (Pantodapoi Phalangitai, Phalangitai Deuteroi, Machimoi Phalangitai)
12 PhalanxC (")
13 PhalanxC (")
14 Spear
15 Spear
16 Sword
17 Sword
18 Skirmisher
19 Missile
20 Missile

[QuintusSertorius]

So perhaps a good compromise is that when it's an FM-led army, it should have a certain level of quality (fewer low-quality phalanxes, more faction-heavy infantry), but when captain-led more of the crap phalanxes and mercenaries?

[Maion Maroneios]

Actually, levy phalangites where only used when short on medium phalangites, but that problem was solved partly by the katoikiai of the Hellenistic Kingdoms. So I guess a standing Successor army would consist of Klerouchoi, instead of Deuteroi or Pantodapoi.

[paullus]

Cavalry -- should generally be in greater numbers for the Seleukids than for the Ptolemies or Makedonians. so ~3 cavalry for every 10 units in a Seleukid army, and as many as 5 in a 15 unit stack, and less for the others.

Elites -- generally accompany "royal" armies, so FM's at least. The big-time elites (Ptolemaic palace agema, Sel. hypaspistai or picked thorakitai, Mak hypaspistai) should probably be reserved for kings and princes and perhaps the highest officials in the realm.

Flexibility -- its entirely possible to break the standard mold at times. you can have a successor army, led by a Satrap or by a non-FM, that doesn't look like a kingly successor army. it would likely be heavier on native troops or mercenaries, so as to avoid risking the lives of the bread-and-butter of the kingdom with a random general who's really only pulling border-guard duty. this also gives you an opportunity to role-play, if you have FM governors from certain places.

Royal armies -- for princes and kings mainly, but also some high officials -- assuming a full stack:

cavalry:
1x somatophylakes strategou
2-3x (Mak), 3-4x (Pto), 5-6x (Sel) other cavalry

phalanx:
2x (Mak and Pto), 3x (Sel) elite phalanx
OR remove 1 to add in palace agema or hypaspistai types
4-6x (Mak and Sel), 5-8x (Pto) medium phalanx
3-6x (all) secondary phalanx (machimoi, pantodapoi, deuteroi)

remainder:
for Seleukids or armies in Asia Minor, you might consider a Galatian allied army of about 3-4 units
for any you might consider some Kretans (probably 1, definitely no more than 2)
for Maks you might consider scattered units of Gauls, Illyrians, Thracians, and/or Greeks (or 1 of each!)
for Ptolemies you'd probably consider units depending on location: in Asia Minor, uazali; in Syria, ioudaioi taxeis or an Arab unit; in Egypt proper, some Galatian klerouchoi or extra Kretans.

[QuintusSertorius]

Appreciate that, paullus, thanks.

[Che Roriniho]

Cavalry -- should generally be in greater numbers for the Seleukids than for the Ptolemies or Makedonians. so ~3 cavalry for every 10 units in a Seleukid army, and as many as 5 in a 15 unit stack, and less for the others.

Elites -- generally accompany "royal" armies, so FM's at least. The big-time elites (Ptolemaic palace agema, Sel. hypaspistai or picked thorakitai, Mak hypaspistai) should probably be reserved for kings and princes and perhaps the highest officials in the realm.

Flexibility -- its entirely possible to break the standard mold at times. you can have a successor army, led by a Satrap or by a non-FM, that doesn't look like a kingly successor army. it would likely be heavier on native troops or mercenaries, so as to avoid risking the lives of the bread-and-butter of the kingdom with a random general who's really only pulling border-guard duty. this also gives you an opportunity to role-play, if you have FM governors from certain places.

Royal armies -- for princes and kings mainly, but also some high officials -- assuming a full stack:

cavalry:
1x somatophylakes strategou
2-3x (Mak), 3-4x (Pto), 5-6x (Sel) other cavalry

phalanx:
2x (Mak and Pto), 3x (Sel) elite phalanx
OR remove 1 to add in palace agema or hypaspistai types
4-6x (Mak and Sel), 5-8x (Pto) medium phalanx
3-6x (all) secondary phalanx (machimoi, pantodapoi, deuteroi)

remainder:
for Seleukids or armies in Asia Minor, you might consider a Galatian allied army of about 3-4 units
for any you might consider some Kretans (probably 1, definitely no more than 2)
for Maks you might consider scattered units of Gauls, Illyrians, Thracians, and/or Greeks (or 1 of each!)
for Ptolemies you'd probably consider units depending on location: in Asia Minor, uazali; in Syria, ioudaioi taxeis or an Arab unit; in Egypt proper, some Galatian klerouchoi or extra Kretans.

You've missed out the Psiloi! And The Thesasalonian Cavalry! Not many needed though, it's only another 4 units! I can fit that in and have 2 Agarian Assault Infantry (Allied Light Inf) I might switch one of my Elite Phalanxes for the Sword Royal Guard (forget the name).

Thanks so much though. For Pto, this will be superb, as with AS.

Cheers!