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  1. #1
    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: American congress get maid

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    The first one led to the second? No, a bunch of idiot germans led to the second.
    If it weren't for the Treaty of Versailles, the second would not have happened.

  2. #2
    Member Member PBI's Avatar
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    Default Re: American congress get maid

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars View Post
    If it weren't for the Treaty of Versailles, the second would not have happened.
    I think it's fair to say it's a bit more complicated than that. Just like it's a little simplistic to say WWI was "Germany's fault".

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    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: American congress get maid

    Quote Originally Posted by Poor Bloody Infantry View Post
    I think it's fair to say it's a bit more complicated than that. Just like it's a little simplistic to say WWI was "Germany's fault".
    It is a bit more complicated than that, you're right. But I object to the "a bunch of idiot Germans" statement, for a variety of reasons.

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    A Member Member Conradus's Avatar
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    Default Re: American congress get maid

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars View Post
    If it weren't for the Treaty of Versailles, the second would not have happened.
    The Treaty of Versailles was indeed rather harsh for Germany and her allies, yet as much was to be expected then. The Franco-Prussian war of 1871 wasn't ended nicely either.

    But claiming that 'stupid -little- germans' had no (large) part in WWII is utter nonsense.

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    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: American congress get maid

    Quote Originally Posted by Conradus View Post
    The Treaty of Versailles was indeed rather harsh for Germany and her allies, yet as much was to be expected then.
    Many leaders knew exactly what would come from a treaty of that nature. Unfortunately, common sense did not prevail. I'm sure any sane person can agree that it was unjust and harsh.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferdinand Foch
    This is not a peace. It is an armistice for 20 years.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd George
    You may strip Germany of her colonies,
    reduce her armaments to a mere police force,
    and her navy to that of a fifth-rate power;
    all the same, in the end if she feels she has been unjustly treated
    in the peace of 1919 she will find means of exacting
    retribution from her conquerors.
    Next statement...

    Quote Originally Posted by Conradus
    But claiming that 'stupid -little- germans' had no (large) part in WWII is utter nonsense.
    Do you see anyone claiming that in this thread? I don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by SwedishFish
    If it weren't for the Franco-Prussian War, the first would not have happened.
    In a large part because the German nation may well have not existed in it's present form. If the world hadn't been created, there never would have been a war.
    Last edited by Evil_Maniac From Mars; 07-30-2008 at 18:53.

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    A Member Member Conradus's Avatar
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    Default Re: American congress get maid

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars View Post
    Many leaders knew exactly what would come from a treaty of that nature. Unfortunately, common sense did not prevail. I'm sure any sane person can agree that it was unjust and harsh.
    It was harsh, sure, unjust, perhaps. The Prussians/Germans must've realised that 1871 would lead to another war and their interference with France's colonies the next centuries didn't help either. The entente on the other hand also wasn't a sign of peacefull intentions though. But it didn't have to lead to a second war if the Allies had been prepared (and willing) to follow the Treaty. That means stopping Germany from reentering the Ruhr, from rearming their army, from remilitarizing the Rhine...At every single one of those stages a second world war would've been prevented by some gunshaking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars View Post
    Next statement...



    Do you see anyone claiming that in this thread? I don't.
    Well you did deny the stupid bunch of germans statement.

  7. #7

    Default Re: American congress get maid

    'Boohoo...If only my mum would've bought me that XBox when I was eight and if only my teachers would've laid off on me when I was twelve and if only she wouldn't have dumped me then I would never have become a gas station robbing piece of trash your honour...boohoo...cry...whine....'
    Of course it was a bitter, vengeful, and certainly immature France that pushed for the harshest elements of the treaty.

    Most damaging of all may not have been the reparations, but the demands to put the Kaiser on trial. Ensuring an end to the monarchy left a power vacuum that allowed all sorts of extreme elements to thrive.

    It is important not to forget the rise of communism and the support it received from the USSR when discussing the run up to the Second World War. The real and perceived threat of a communist takeover was tangible and greatly bolstered Nazi influence. People were certainly bitter over Versailles, but they were terrified of the Reds. Note that they were dealt with immediately, before the Jews, Gypsies and everyone else…

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    Backordered Member CrossLOPER's Avatar
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    Default Re: American congress get maid

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger View Post
    Of course it was a bitter, vengeful, and certainly immature France that pushed for the harshest elements of the treaty.
    I'm pretty sure a large part of their eastern territory was totally razed and many people were lost. People were still very afraid of the Germans. I'm not saying this justifies overly harsh treatment.
    Last edited by CrossLOPER; 07-30-2008 at 22:12.
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  9. #9
    Formerly: SwedishFish Member KarlXII's Avatar
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    Default Re: American congress get maid

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger View Post
    Of course it was a bitter, vengeful, and certainly immature France that pushed for the harshest elements of the treaty.

    Most damaging of all may not have been the reparations, but the demands to put the Kaiser on trial. Ensuring an end to the monarchy left a power vacuum that allowed all sorts of extreme elements to thrive.

    It is important not to forget the rise of communism and the support it received from the USSR when discussing the run up to the Second World War. The real and perceived threat of a communist takeover was tangible and greatly bolstered Nazi influence. People were certainly bitter over Versailles, but they were terrified of the Reds. Note that they were dealt with immediately, before the Jews, Gypsies and everyone else…
    The USSR hardly could have affected Communism in other nations. They finished a terrible civil war, fought Japan and Poland, and their officers were being purged. The "Great Red Terror" was simply nothing more than fear exploited.

    The Kaiser was the ultimate head of state of Germany. What happens in terms of internal and foreign affairs are normally brought to him. Therefore, he would know of the violation of Belgian neutrality, the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_of_Belgium.

    There was no "power vacuum". The Kaiser had abdicated before the official peace was signed, Prince Max resigned soon later. Friedrich Ebert took control as the first president.

    And for the French, can you blame them? Germany chose to support Austria and chose to violate Belgian neutrality and declare war on the Allies, Germany was, in a way, responsible for the French and English deaths on the Western Front.
    HOW ABOUT 'DEM VIKINGS
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  10. #10

    Default Re: American congress get maid

    Quote Originally Posted by SwedishFish View Post
    The USSR hardly could have affected Communism in other nations. They finished a terrible civil war, fought Japan and Poland, and their officers were being purged. The "Great Red Terror" was simply nothing more than fear exploited.
    This is entirely incorrect. After the Civil War, Lenin almost immediately attempted to spread the revolution into Europe through direct warfare. After that disaster, the USSR had a major part in founding, funding, guiding and even directly controlling the various communist movements throughout Europe and Asia to varying degrees and by the 30's they were little more than agents of Soviet policy. This direct Soviet influence can be easily recognized in the outright military support given to the Spanish communists.

    As for the threat of communist takeover, it was very real - especially in Germany. You are aware of the armed communist groups and the street battles, correct? After the communist-nationalist alliance fell apart in a particularly bloody manner in China, Stalin shifted these groups, essentially Soviet proxies, to a far more militant posture.

    The Kaiser was the ultimate head of state of Germany. What happens in terms of internal and foreign affairs are normally brought to him. Therefore, he would know of the violation of Belgian neutrality, the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_of_Belgium.

    There was no "power vacuum". The Kaiser had abdicated before the official peace was signed, Prince Max resigned soon later. Friedrich Ebert took control as the first president.

    The original plan was to shift to a constitutional monarchy. This would have given Germany a clear head of state with an established right of governance among the people to keep the nation in concert through the rough transition to democracy. Hindenburg just couldn't pull that off, and Weimar can be described as nothing less than a power vacuum, in which the nation was torn apart by both the radical Left and Right.


    And for the French, can you blame them? Germany chose to support Austria and chose to violate Belgian neutrality and declare war on the Allies, Germany was, in a way, responsible for the French and English deaths on the Western Front.
    Yes, France can be blamed for activating its alliances just as Germany can. The Austrian and Russian power struggle in the Balkans had very little to do with either nation.

    It should also be noted that Wilhelm, while a great proponent of German power, was not seeking a war. He made great efforts to de-escalate the situation just prior to the outbreak of hostilities. Unfortunately, the man was rather inept and didn't realize how little influence his personal relationships with other monarchs held in the power politics of the day that drove the powers to war.
    Last edited by PanzerJaeger; 07-31-2008 at 00:33.

  11. #11
    Formerly: SwedishFish Member KarlXII's Avatar
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    Default Re: American congress get maid

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars View Post
    If it weren't for the Treaty of Versailles, the second would not have happened.
    If it weren't for the Franco-Prussian War, the first would not have happened.
    HOW ABOUT 'DEM VIKINGS
    -Martok

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