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  1. #1
    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: American congress get maid

    So was the treatment of Germany harsher after the end of WWI or WWII?

    And if it was harsher after WWII, which did not lead to another world war, does it not seem to say that one must destroy an enemy entirely and not just partly, as was the case after WWI?

    Maybe the allies were to lenient on Germany after WWI, and should have partitioned it then. Those idiots in Germany that led to WWII knew of the horrific scale of world war, and they started it. They had seen hell and again brought it to the world. That leaves me precious little sympathy for them. They just thought they could win this time, so it became necessary to more forcefully persuade them against ever thinking about it again. Bring back some of the hell they unleashed to their own doorstep.

    And on air bombing, it seems Germany started that on Poland, then agreed not to bomb civilian targets with Britain and France, then proceeded to break that agreement by bombing Rotterdam.
    To a certain extent, I can see your point. However, I'm not sure exactly how Germany triggered Dresden - it's a historical fact that German towns were bombed first. The German government asked the British to halt the bombings of German towns repeatedly, before German bombs fell on Britain.
    Well, except for Poland and Rotterdam...

    If you want to appeal to emotion, how many of your ancestors were tortured in Lubyanka? How many of your ancestors were shipped to Gulags? How many of your ancestors perished because of famine or fire? How many of your ancestors were conscripted into the Wehrmacht and sent to the hell that was the Russian steppes? Don't talk to me about death.
    Again, I've little sympathy for when you dance with the devil and lose.

    CR
    Ja Mata, Tosa.

    The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder

  2. #2
    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: American congress get maid

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit View Post
    So was the treatment of Germany harsher after the end of WWI or WWII?
    I'd go so far as to say WWI. Why? Because after WWII we had a functioning economy, and an enemy was presented to us in the Soviets. Not only that, our former enemies encouraged and backed our choice of enemy. Whereas after WWI, we had a destroyed economy, no hope, no way out. We were offered a way out, and we took it, as anyone would have done.

    Maybe the allies were to lenient on Germany after WWI, and should have partitioned it then.
    Germany was partitioned after WWI.

    That leaves me precious little sympathy for them. They just thought they could win this time, so it became necessary to more forcefully persuade them against ever thinking about it again.
    *Sigh...*

    I'll remind you of that statement next time America goes to war anywhere...

    Bring back some of the hell they unleashed to their own doorstep.
    Still illegal and disgusting, regardless of your moralizing.

    Well, except for Poland and Rotterdam...
    I've explained Rotterdam, and I have to leave home soon, so I'll address the rest later.

    Again, I've little sympathy for when you dance with the devil and lose.
    And if the devil hits you over the head and drags you off to fight his wars? Or if you never entered his lair in the first place, and worked an ordinary respectable job in an ordinary neighbourhood? What then? Or is it the fault of the ordinary German?

  3. #3
    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: American congress get maid

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars View Post
    I'd go so far as to say WWI. Why? Because after WWII we had a functioning economy, and an enemy was presented to us in the Soviets. Not only that, our former enemies encouraged and backed our choice of enemy. Whereas after WWI, we had a destroyed economy, no hope, no way out. We were offered a way out, and we took it, as anyone would have done.
    No, you took the easy way out - the way of scapegoats and hatred, because of deep rooted bigotry towards certain peoples.

    Germany was partitioned after WWI.
    Yes, but they didn't have other nations take over all the sectors of their country; perhaps I should have been more clear.

    Still illegal and disgusting, regardless of your moralizing.
    And who started the illegal bombing of cities? If Dresden even was illegal. But I don't particularly care if Dresden was illegal or completely necessary. I don't care if it can or can't be excused or explained. It's war, and if Germany wanted total war, they got it.

    I think Germany deserved it, because they set the tone for WWII.

    Sherman burned our own country in the civil war, so I have little sympathy for countries led by Nazis.

    And if the devil hits you over the head and drags you off to fight his wars? Or if you never entered his lair in the first place, and worked an ordinary respectable job in an ordinary neighbourhood? What then? Or is it the fault of the ordinary German?
    Oh, because the Germans didn't support the Nazis at all, did they?
    By that logic, if I were going to punish my puppy for pissing on the carpet even though it actually did no such thing, I should really beat the hell out of it so it doesn't grow up and attack me for it.

    No, a far more reasonable approach would have been to make a just treaty that accurately represented history, and not to cripple a nation that was not responsible for the war and whose leader was the only to make an attempt to stop it.
    Dogs don't hold grudges for twenty years. Are you suggesting dog and human psychology are the same?

    The history was world war one was a war unlike any other before it. Yes, parts of the treaty were probably unfair and overly harsh.

    CR
    Ja Mata, Tosa.

    The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder

  4. #4
    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: American congress get maid

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit View Post
    No, you took the easy way out - the way of scapegoats and hatred, because of deep rooted bigotry towards certain peoples.
    Germany was offered a way out that led to more prosperity than Germans had known since before the war. In countries with twenty years of death and rampant inflation, you tend to vote for the parties that promise the most radical change. These parties were the National Socialists and the Communists. In the 1933 elections (where the Nazi Party had 43.9% of the vote, so the "all Germans voted for Hitler" myth is pretty much shot), the next two parties after the Nazi Party were what? That's right, the SPD and the KPD. That's three evils.

    Maybe you should look at Austria instead if you want you "overwhelming support."

    And who started the illegal bombing of cities?
    I'll go into that later, like I said. I'm treading the line with my schedule just by posting this.

    I think Germany deserved it, because they set the tone for WWII.
    If you were blamed for something you didn't do, your country was plunged into civil war, your territories were stripped, and your national pride destroyed, what would happen in most countries? You find a way to fight back. Germans did that. The Lloyd George quote holds true:

    "You may strip Germany of her colonies,
    reduce her armaments to a mere police force,
    and her navy to that of a fifth-rate power;
    all the same, in the end if she feels she has been unjustly treated
    in the peace of 1919 she will find means of exacting
    retribution from her conquerors."

    Sherman burned our own country in the civil war, so I have little sympathy for countries led by Nazis.
    You have no sympathy for civilians? Germany was a dictatorship, not a democracy. I bet you have no sympathy for Iraqi civilians either? They were led by a pretty brutal man as well, were they not (in a dictatorship).

    Oh, because the Germans didn't support the Nazis at all, did they?
    I was talking about my family specifically. Whether Germans (less than half in the 1933 election, you may recall) supported Hitler or not is rather irrelevant. The last chance for the German voice to be heard was in 1933. And regardless of what you think, many Germans did not support the Nazi Party, and even less supported it after 1943.

    But that does not matter. Is a firestorm justified for the women and children of Germany? Is the same justified for America when it wages wars of aggression?

    Dogs don't hold grudges for twenty years. Are you suggesting dog and human psychology are the same?

    The history was world war one was a war unlike any other before it. Yes, parts of the treaty were probably unfair and overly harsh.
    Panzer answered this very eloquently and correctly.

    EDIT: And I'd like to make it clear to all Orgahs that I in no way, shape, or form condone the crimes of the Nazi Party. I also disagree with that party on an idealogical basis.
    Last edited by Evil_Maniac From Mars; 08-03-2008 at 19:10.

  5. #5

    Default Re: American congress get maid

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit View Post
    Maybe the allies were to lenient on Germany after WWI, and should have partitioned it then.
    By that logic, if I were going to punish my puppy for pissing on the carpet even though it actually did no such thing, I should really beat the hell out of it so it doesn't grow up and attack me for it.

    No, a far more reasonable approach would have been to make a just treaty that accurately represented history, and not to cripple a nation that was not responsible for the war and whose leader was the only to make an attempt to stop it.

  6. #6
    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: American congress get maid

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger View Post
    By that logic, if I were going to punish my puppy for pissing on the carpet even though it actually did no such thing, I should really beat the hell out of it so it doesn't grow up and attack me for it.

    No, a far more reasonable approach would have been to make a just treaty that accurately represented history, and not to cripple a nation that was not responsible for the war and whose leader was the only to make an attempt to stop it.
    That's pretty much the point CR. Good post Panzer.

  7. #7

    Default Re: American congress get maid

    More rubbish
    Still illegal and disgusting, regardless of your moralizing.
    Illegal under what law ?
    Oh yeah there was no law covering it

    I've explained Rotterdam

    Yet facts about the event do not support your explanation in the slightest .

  8. #8
    Probably Drunk Member Reverend Joe's Avatar
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    Default Re: American congress get maid

    @Dresden.

    I cannot understand how anyone would even try to excuse the firebombing of Dresden. It doesn't matter how many civilians the Germans bombed. By doing exactly the same thing the Germans were doing, the Allies were just as much in the wrong. The proper response to something as morally reprehensible as massacring civilians is not to do it back to them; the proper response is to keep the moral high ground by not doing what the enemy does.

    I hate to pull out an old cliche, but two wrongs really don't make a right.

  9. #9

    Default Re: American congress get maid

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribesman View Post
    More rubbish

    Illegal under what law ?
    Oh yeah there was no law covering it
    Again with this?

    Article 25: The attack or bombardment of towns, villages, habitations or buildings which are not defended, is prohibited.
    Article 26: The Commander of an attacking force, before commencing a bombardment, except in the case of an assault, should do all he can to warn the authorities.
    Article 27: In sieges and bombardments all necessary steps should be taken to spare as far as possible edifices devoted to religion, art, science, and charity, hospitals, and places where the sick and wounded are collected, provided they are not used at the same time for military purposes.
    The besieged should indicate these buildings or places by some particular and visible signs, which should previously be notified to the assailants.
    -Hague Convention...



    The first one is debatable, although a reading of Shimoda is in order for anyone interested. The second two define Dresden and other allied bombings as war crimes.
    Last edited by PanzerJaeger; 08-01-2008 at 20:21.

  10. #10

    Default Re: American congress get maid

    Again with this?
    And how exactly does that apply to Dresden ?
    Oh yeah it doesn't does it , and even if it did apply in general it doesn't apply on specifics , Dresden was a garrison town , it was defended , it contained arms industries and materials of war , it was used for military operations and the aiming point for the bombardment was chosen due to the location of the infrastructure that was a vital component of the war effort that was being used to facilitate offensive and defensive operations .


    I cannot understand how anyone would even try to excuse the firebombing of Dresden.
    Who is trying to excuse it , everyone will say it wasn't nice , it wasn't a really pleasant thing, however people cannot say it was illegal as there was no law which made it illegal .
    They cannot say it was a war crime when it fits within the laws of war
    When people repeatedly maintain that it was illegal and a war crime in the complete absence of any laws making it illegal and a war crime then they are showing ignorance of the legislation .
    When they persist in their claims after already being shown that they are ignorant of the laws then it implies that they are more than just ignorant of the legislation , it shows that they are unable to learn and adjust their preconceptions .

  11. #11

    Default Re: American congress get maid

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribesman View Post
    And how exactly does that apply to Dresden ?
    Oh yeah it doesn't does it , and even if it did apply in general it doesn't apply on specifics , Dresden was a garrison town , it was defended , it contained arms industries and materials of war , it was used for military operations and the aiming point for the bombardment was chosen due to the location of the infrastructure that was a vital component of the war effort that was being used to facilitate offensive and defensive operations .
    None of that changes the breaches of Articles 26 and 27.

    As for whether Dresden was a garrison city, defended, etc; post war litigation has leaned towards finding cities that are not front line as being undefended, regardless of AA.

    I found this interesting quote when I went to get copy/paste the articles. Seems the US has accepted this fact, internally at least.

    A fair reading of the [Rome Statute], for example, leaves the objective observer unable to answer with confidence whether the United States was guilty of war crimes for its aerial bombing campaigns over Germany and Japan in World War II. Indeed, if anything, a straightforward reading of the language probably indicates that the court would find the United States guilty. A fortiori, these provisions seem to imply that the United States would have been guilty of a war crime for dropping atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. This is intolerable and unacceptable.
    -John Bolton, U.S. Permanent Representative to the United Nations


    In any event, the implications of this discussion are dubious at best. Trying, albeit unsuccessfully, to find legal technicalities in favor of the immolation of hundreds of thousands of women and children is never a strong position.
    Last edited by PanzerJaeger; 08-01-2008 at 23:43.

  12. #12
    Member Member KrooK's Avatar
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    Default Re: American congress get maid

    Sorry but im too drunk to check but which told that Poland was children of Versal Treaty.
    Bunch of lies. Poland is children of polish blood. Without polish victories not treaty would give us independence - we won it alone, without anyone. And idiot who claim that Koningsberg should be German not Poles is .... idiot - Konginsberg (today Kalingrad) is Russian, not polish city.
    So please do not teach others about eastern europe while you don't know anything about it.
    Last edited by Banquo's Ghost; 08-02-2008 at 08:27. Reason: Unparliamentary language
    John Thomas Gross - liar who want put on Poles responsibility for impassivity of American Jews during holocaust

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