Why is running the sensible thing?Originally Posted by HoreTore
Is it always the sensible thing to run? In any threatening situation?
Re: You are safer without a knife
Why is running the sensible thing?
Is it always the sensible thing to run? In any threatening situation?
The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott
Re: You are safer without a knife
Plus, I think you are all forgetting something...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsQFYceNZS8
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
At the end of the day politics is just trash compared to the Gospel.
Re: You are safer without a knife
I don’t know, recently there has been lots of police activities in my school (I live in London), you got people giving lectures about not carry to knifes, showing us nasty pictures about what knifes can do and threatening us with 6 years in prison (max.) if caught with a knife, no matter what reason. On average a person get killed (stabbed, mostly teenagers) every 2 weeks in London. Of course the law abiding people don’t carry knifes, but I don’t see the point if everybody was to carry a knife for self-defence, surely the death-rate would be much higher that way. Anyway I don’t think carrying a knife makes you any safer than not carrying one, the only thing I see is that you’d be dead, but at least you would have taken some of them with you.
I totally agree with you on this one.
So you’re saying that you stand more of a chance in that situation with a knife rather than a pair of fast legs.
Re: You are safer without a knife
It's the same old song and dance. The same statistic applies to people who carry a firearm.
The numbers are skewed heavily by the people who carry knives and illegal firearms for the purpose of engaging in criminal activities. Petty criminals, gang members, mobsters, etc. are obviously at greater risk of being wounded or killed than the rest of us, as are those unarmed citizens that they prey upon.
A far more useful statistic would be for people who have no criminal records (as well as those who have never been arrested or arrested & not convicted) who resorted to the use of firearms or knives to defend themselves against thieves, rapists & the like.
"Why spoil the beauty of the thing with legality?" - Theodore Roosevelt
Idealism is masturbation, but unlike real masturbation idealism actually makes one blind. - Fragony
Though Adrian did a brilliant job of defending the great man that is Hugo Chavez, I decided to post this anyway.. - JAG (who else?)
Re: You are safer without a knife
It is perfectly legal to carry a knife as a tool .Actually I almost always carry a knife in the form of a multitool, guess I'm used to it from trekking. Strange world that a man can no longer carry the tool of tools.
No offence* Caledonian but on this subject experience wise have you any idea what you are talking about ?(*no offence because getting through life without too many dodgy events and having to do nasty things to people isn't a bad thing at all)And unless you have some Chuck Norris style roundhouse kicks up your sleeve, then the person with the knife will have a big advantage when it comes to attacking you.
Re: You are safer without a knife
OK, I'll take the bait. What point are you driving at here Tribes?
"Justice is the firm and continuous desire to render to everyone
that which is his due." - Justinian I
Re: You are safer without a knife
Running sounds sensible in theory (provided you're fast enough... and lucky enough to get away). However running before an aggressor has the unfortunate side effect of triggering that primal bloodlust that we semi-hairless primates have employed since our earliest historical accounts. The history of warfare (particularly in the pre-gunpowder era) is littered with countless accounts of battles turning into bloodbaths because one side routed and the other gave chase and cut down those attempting to flee. In many battles more lives were lost during routs than when one side retreated sensibly or attempted to surrender.
There is something about the extreme decision to fight to the bitter end or take flight that leads to truly bloody ends. If some low IQ, aggressive criminal type is intent on doing you harm then triggering or amplifying their predatorial instincts by turning tail probably isn't a good idea.
"Why spoil the beauty of the thing with legality?" - Theodore Roosevelt
Idealism is masturbation, but unlike real masturbation idealism actually makes one blind. - Fragony
Though Adrian did a brilliant job of defending the great man that is Hugo Chavez, I decided to post this anyway.. - JAG (who else?)
Re: You are safer without a knife
I don't know about running but FWIW back in the day my karate sensei was always very clear that the best thing to do if it looks like its kicking off is to leave if you can.
And that was from someone who didn't need a knife to kick yo ass.
That's about all the karate I remember now, but I still think its sound advice.
"The only thing I've gotten out of this thread is that Navaros is claiming that Satan gave Man meat. Awesome." Gorebag
Re: You are safer without a knife
Backing off slowly, showing that you're not going to be easy pickings if push does come to shove, seems to me the most productive. In that situation a knife, or anything solid at hand would be helpful. Running or fighting - well, unless someone's entirely confident in the ability to do either, is a bit of a gamble.
Course, the more dangerous muggers don't like to let it come to that. I'd guess they prefer the first the victim knows of them to be when they initiate physical contact. And if they're in a group and you're alone, pretty much in trouble anyway.
Last edited by Geoffrey S; 07-17-2008 at 22:17.
"The facts of history cannot be purely objective, since they become facts of history only in virtue of the significance attached to them by the historian." E.H. Carr
Re: You are safer without a knife
I do have a little experience, and it tells me that you do not run from neds. I've never had a situation where I've been in a (gang v gang) fight or a M2TW style chain rout, but from my little experience what tends to happen is a mutual backing off. Neds don't like to act if the odds aren't 4:1 in their favour (thats "Victory is a distinct possibility" for them to the rest of us here).
Seriously, neds are 90% talk. I'm no tough guy, but I've watched too many ancient-era war movies and I tend to get fatalistic and think that weak as I am I may as well take as many out with me as possible. But its never come to that, thankfully.
Never, ever run from neds (I am talking about chavs here for the rest of Britain, not sure for equivalents around the world). They act like packs of dogs, one goes hounding after you and the rest will follow. Its never happened to me thanks to a pretty sheltered upbringing, but I have heard this from my friends. And middle-class as I am, living in the area I do you will at some point run into trouble.
Ultimately, for some reason I've always been far more terrified of getting into trouble with the authorities (whether they be a teacher, the police, or whatever) than actually having a scrap. Maybe such discipline has served me well, because on the occassions that could have left to trouble I've (with my friends) held the ground without getting aggresive and its basically led to both sides backing off, the neds hurling insults as if they won obviously.
And then it always leads to stupid jokes because my private school friends think I am a ned.
At the end of the day politics is just trash compared to the Gospel.
Re: You are safer without a knife
I’d run if they got knifes, but it wouldn’t be wise to run if they got nothing, even if there’re six of them. The worst you get is a beating, but if you stand your ground then they probably wouldn’t give you much trouble in the future. But it’s much more different with a knife, run and you get stabbed, stay and you get stabbed too. The only other option is you stay and give them what they want, which is really the worst option of all of them.
Re: You are safer without a knife
If somebody has a knife (even if you have one too) the sensible thing is to run.
When we did this training in the army, the first thing the knife instructor said was something along these lines: "Here is a universal truth: if you get in a knife fight, you are going to get cut. The guy who wins the knife fight is the guy who is best able to to see the sight of his own blood without going into shock."
To demonstrate, at the end of a week in which we had been doing nothing but practicing all kinds of fancy knife-fighting techniques for 7 hours per day, he let us "spar." He would take two guys, put them in the ring, hand them each a red magic marker, tell them to take off their shirts, and say "Okay troops, have at 'er."
Within about 5 seconds each fighter's torso and arms were covered with ink. And most of the wounds represented by those ink marks would have been more than most people would have been able to stand without freaking out.
This crap you see in the movies where guys are dancing around gracefully, parrying and slashing, is complete and utter crap. Get in a knife fight, you're going to get cut.
"What, have Canadians run out of guns to steal from other Canadians and now need to piss all over our glee?"
- TSM
Re: You are safer without a knife
The reason I ask is because in my experience people usually have a stake in a conflictuous situation and feel that they can't afford to run. What have the sensei's of the world to say about that?
The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott
Re: You are safer without a knife
There are only two possible reasons not to run:
1) You are absolutely certain the other person can outrun you, so you are better off not turning your back on him and you might as well try your luck fighting
2) You are with somebody else who won't be able to get away, so by running you would be abandoning them to certain death
Anything else is nothing but pride.
"What, have Canadians run out of guns to steal from other Canadians and now need to piss all over our glee?"
- TSM
Re: You are safer without a knife
We're not talking about the military here, you don't need to organise a systematic retreat.
These gangs sniff out fear, if you run you spur them on, half the time they're only causing trouble for fun. If you are confident you can outrun them then obviously do so. But if you run and get caught with your back turned then you could be in deep trouble.
You are best to hold your ground and hope they back off. If they do not, it is much better to have a weapon than not to. It is of course a last resort.
In all honesty, knife crime is mostly caused by drunken idiots consumed in their pride.
But for non-drunkards, gangs are your main threat.
At the end of the day politics is just trash compared to the Gospel.
Re: You are safer without a knife
If they're doing it for fun, they're less likely to give chase. You ran away, they won the fight as far as they're concerned and that's all they're bothered about - looking tough in front of their friends. You stand there and get your own knife out, then you give the chavs something to prove.
If you carry a knife, you're an idiot. AKA, what Tribesman said.
Re: You are safer without a knife
I think whether running is a good plan depends a lot upon the nature of the conflict you're in. If someone threatened me with a knife and demanded my wallet, I reckon I would probably attempt to run, as chasing me down over a distance would seem a lot of trouble for a few quid, and they have no stake in actually hurting me per se-they just want my money. However, if the aggressor's objective seemed to be to injure/kill me, it would be far less clear cut.
As others have already pointed out, these stats are confounded by the fact that people who carry knifes are much more likely to be involved in nefarious activities that would increase your odds of getting stabbed. I would like to see a breakdown by type of knife carried, though. I imagine that the incidence of stabbings is far higher amongst people who carry Crocodile Dundee-style machetes than amongst people who carry little penknives.
Last edited by Big King Sanctaphrax; 07-18-2008 at 01:19.
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Re: You are safer without a knife
Those two things are uncertain in most situations. So that's no guideline.
Me and a friend were waiting for a night bus around 1.00 am once, many moons ago, on a deserted road outside a village. It was the last bus, and I had to be home that night. We were 17 years old. Two guys about the same age and build as us came walking down the road and one of them started waving a knife at us, demanding money for their bus fare. We retreated, talked, 'negotiated', feigned to shrug the whole thing off - until the arrival of the bus saved us. Then the other guys ran, fearing that we or the bus driver would alert the police.
Of course we could have run. Or we could have been dead. Or we could have wrung the knife from the guy´s hand. Whatever.
I'm just telling you that in such situations nothing is clear-cut except for this: most senseis talk bollox (with compliments to Tribesman).
The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott
Re: You are safer without a knife
Yes. Waiting for that bus was your way out of it
What you did was negotiate and stall the situation until a way out of it appeared. You did not escalate it by flashing a knife or whatever(ie. being aggressive), like the OP thinks you should.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: You are safer without a knife
The point was how many knife incidents has Caledonian been in and how does he get his views on the best thing to do in those situations .OK, I'll take the bait. What point are you driving at here Tribes?
My point being that carrying a knife for self defense is an extremely stupid thing to do .
Re: You are safer without a knife
I'm pretty sure Goofball is right here.
When you fight back you're entering dangerous terrain, that guy has usually fought more knife fights than you and you will inevitably get wounded when you might have been able to outrun him or he might have even been too lazy to run after you. If he's faster than you you can still turn around and try to surprise him.
I'm also not really sure how many people who just want some money from you want to murder you, but when you fight back with a knife to save your precious 30$ in your wallet, you're actually risking your life for those 30$.
"Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu
Re: You are safer without a knife
Well from what I've found, if you are walking about on a nice day in clear sunlight then you are much more likely to be troubled by gangs looking for trouble than a mugger looking for your money.
And in those circumstances, running is just giving them the go-ahead to beat the crap out of you.
If you hold your ground, you are less likely to have a fight than if you insta-rout.
At the end of the day politics is just trash compared to the Gospel.
Re: You are safer without a knife
And flashing a knife is not going to make them want to kick your ass?
6 guys with weapons who wants to screw with someone, and the guy pulls a knife? That sounds like a challenge if you ask me. And with a 6-1 ratio, that means your ass is going down. Assuming you're not the Terminator.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: You are safer without a knife
And if you get into a knife fight without a knife, then you are also going to get cut.
At the end of the day politics is just trash compared to the Gospel.
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