You are safer without a knife

[Husar]

I'm pretty sure Goofball is right here.

When you fight back you're entering dangerous terrain, that guy has usually fought more knife fights than you and you will inevitably get wounded when you might have been able to outrun him or he might have even been too lazy to run after you. If he's faster than you you can still turn around and try to surprise him.

I'm also not really sure how many people who just want some money from you want to murder you, but when you fight back with a knife to save your precious 30$ in your wallet, you're actually risking your life for those 30$.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Well from what I've found, if you are walking about on a nice day in clear sunlight then you are much more likely to be troubled by gangs looking for trouble than a mugger looking for your money.

And in those circumstances, running is just giving them the go-ahead to beat the crap out of you.

If you hold your ground, you are less likely to have a fight than if you insta-rout.

[HoreTore]

Those two things are uncertain in most situations. So that's no guideline.

Me and a friend were waiting for a night bus around 1.00 am once, many moons ago, on a deserted road outside a village. It was the last bus, and I had to be home that night. We were 17 years old. Two guys about the same age and build as us came walking down the road and one of them started waving a knife at us, demanding money for their bus fare. We retreated, talked, 'negotiated', feigned to shrug the whole thing off - until the arrival of the bus saved us. Then the other guys ran, fearing that we or the bus driver would alert the police.

Of course we could have run. Or we could have been dead. Or we could have wrung the knife from the guy´s hand. Whatever.

I'm just telling you that in such situations nothing is clear-cut except for this: most senseis talk bollox (with compliments to Tribesman).

Yes. Waiting for that bus was your way out of it

What you did was negotiate and stall the situation until a way out of it appeared. You did not escalate it by flashing a knife or whatever(ie. being aggressive), like the OP thinks you should.

[Tribesman]

OK, I'll take the bait. What point are you driving at here Tribes?

The point was how many knife incidents has Caledonian been in and how does he get his views on the best thing to do in those situations .
My point being that carrying a knife for self defense is an extremely stupid thing to do .

[HoreTore]

And in those circumstances, running is just giving them the go-ahead to beat the crap out of you.

And flashing a knife is not going to make them want to kick your ass?

6 guys with weapons who wants to screw with someone, and the guy pulls a knife? That sounds like a challenge if you ask me. And with a 6-1 ratio, that means your ass is going down. Assuming you're not the Terminator.

[Craterus]

We're not talking about the military here, you don't need to organise a systematic retreat.

These gangs sniff out fear, if you run you spur them on, half the time they're only causing trouble for fun. If you are confident you can outrun them then obviously do so. But if you run and get caught with your back turned then you could be in deep trouble.

You are best to hold your ground and hope they back off. If they do not, it is much better to have a weapon than not to. It is of course a last resort.

In all honesty, knife crime is mostly caused by drunken idiots consumed in their pride.

But for non-drunkards, gangs are your main threat.

If they're doing it for fun, they're less likely to give chase. You ran away, they won the fight as far as they're concerned and that's all they're bothered about - looking tough in front of their friends. You stand there and get your own knife out, then you give the chavs something to prove.

If you carry a knife, you're an idiot. AKA, what Tribesman said.

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

I think whether running is a good plan depends a lot upon the nature of the conflict you're in. If someone threatened me with a knife and demanded my wallet, I reckon I would probably attempt to run, as chasing me down over a distance would seem a lot of trouble for a few quid, and they have no stake in actually hurting me per se-they just want my money. However, if the aggressor's objective seemed to be to injure/kill me, it would be far less clear cut.

As others have already pointed out, these stats are confounded by the fact that people who carry knifes are much more likely to be involved in nefarious activities that would increase your odds of getting stabbed. I would like to see a breakdown by type of knife carried, though. I imagine that the incidence of stabbings is far higher amongst people who carry Crocodile Dundee-style machetes than amongst people who carry little penknives.

[HoreTore]

Well the number one self-defense tip of all time is....

Don't put yourself in such a situation you dolt.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Um, I don't carry a knife and I never suggested waving one about.

My point is that since running is not always an option, if you hold your ground there is a risk they will advance. And if they have a knife, and if they will outrun you, what do you do?

Wait for Mr. Brown's planned police forces to arrive?

[Samurai Waki]

The situation of someone pulling out any weapon on you, requires you to pull out a weapon that could easily kill both of you, thus the situation turns into MAD. I bought a lighter in L.A. that looks surprisingly like an Mk82 Fragmentation Grenade, never had to pull it out, but when I did to most of my friends they had this deer in the head lights like look, especially when I pulled the pin, pulled out a cigarette and lit it.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Outside uniform, my experience of such things is absolutely zero.

However, Goofball echoes my military instructor's view, and I would entirely embrace Tribesman's advice as he has, I believe, real experience.

As was noted by Spino, I imagine a lot of these statistics include knifings between young criminal gangs. In that case, I suspect the act of carrying is a provocation and the fight a badge of "honour". To not carry excludes one from that pantomime and consequently, one may well be ignored more often.

Or of course, this.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Well the number one self-defense tip of all time is....

Don't put yourself in such a situation you dolt.

Me and Horetore agreeing? In a thread on weapons? I am aghast!

Anyways, the idea that a knife is useless in self defense, even against a group, is BS:

Gay man freed in killing

By ALYSHA BRENNAN & THERESA CONROY

abrenna@phillynews.com

LUCAS Dawson began carrying a knife after being attacked while kissing his male lover in a South Philadelphia Park four years ago.

Now, after a second assault by gay bashers - one of whom he killed in self-defense - Dawson's thinking about getting a gun.

The 21-year-old was cleared yesterday of charges in the fatal stabbing of a 17-year-old boy who was among a group that attacked him near his East Mount Airy home on Oct. 29.

There was great relief at the Dawson home yesterday after the decision by a Municipal Court judge, but now the concern is his safety.

Last night, Dawson packed to leave home for fear of retaliation.

"I mean, seven guys jumped me, and one guy died," he said. "There's still six other people that want to hurt me.

"I fear for my safety, and that's why I'm moving away," he added. "I won't carry a knife on me anymore, but I am considering getting a gun permit."

David Diggs, the boyfriend of Lucas' mother, Lisa, said Lucas was not safe in the neighborhood any longer.

Lucas had been in jail since he was arrested after the stabbing of Gerald Knight, who was one of five to seven teens - all strangers to Dawson - who beat him and who he said called him a "faggot."

"My mom missed me while I was gone because I was always singin' up a storm," Dawson said.

Yesterday, he flashed a weary smile after Municipal Judge Gerard Kosin-ski dismissed the manslaughter charge.

Dawson, wisp-thin, frightened and frail, was released after the hearing.

Defense attorney Kevin Birley said Dawson had acted in self-defense.

"We can't forget that my client was a victim of a hate crime," Birley said.

"They wanted to hurt him. It wasn't that they were trying to get money or they had an argument with him," Birley said. "They simply wanted to hurt him so they kicked him and punched him... Even the first stab didn't stop the attack. It took a second stab to stop the attack."

Prosecutor M.K. Feeney said a jury should decide whether it was manslaughter or self-defense, but Kosinski disagreed.

"Looking at the circumstances here, I agree with the defense," Kosinski said after the preliminary hearing.

It was an unusual move for the district attorney's office to charge Dawson with voluntary manslaughter instead of a general murder charge. Feeney said in court that her office had made that decision after looking at all the facts.

"This is truly a tragic situation for everybody involved, and nobody should have to worry that when they walk down the street they should be attacked for their sexuality or any other reason," she said.

Dawson said the teens followed him as he headed for a bus stop. The teens taunted him for being gay and repeatedly threw a basketball at him, he said.

"One of them punched me in my lip," Dawson said in his statement. "Then, they all started punching me and knocked me to the ground. I was scared and I felt like if I didn't get up they would probably kill me. I felt a wave of strength and I got up... I took out the knife and waved it."

When Knight punched him, Dawson said he thrust the knife into his chest.

"I didn't think the knife went in because he kept punching me, so I stuck the knife in him again," Dawson said.

After the hearing, Diggs said the family felt sorry for the Knight family. "They lost their kid," he said.

The pain of that loss was evident on the face of Knight's father. When the judge announced the dismissal of charges, he exclaimed, "That's my son!" When approached outside the courtroom, he yelled angrily at a reporter, saying he didn't want to talk about his son.

"If you really wanted to know who he was, you should have come to the funeral," he shouted.

At the Dawson home yesterday, Lucas said, "I want to put this all behind me. My life has been turned upside down and I have to start over."

"It makes me sad," Dawson added. "I broke down in court today. I never wanted to hurt anybody... . I was trying to get these guys away from me.

"My mom said, 'You might feel bad about killing someone, but if you didn't have that knife, somebody would be knocking on my door telling me my son's dead.' "

Lisa Dawson, 40, said she is happy to have Lucas back at home, and is looking forward to finally being able to sleep through the night.

"I'm relieved," she said. "The air feels clean again."

Dawson says he'll continue pursuing an acting and modeling career. "When I was in prison, I got to thinking what I was going to do with my life," he said.

"I would like to help gay people so that this type of thing won't happen again," he said.

"It's just about ignorance, you know? I believe what you put out, you get back. And I want to give back."

The idea that carrying a knife puts you in danger is stupid. Likely more just fools not understanding correlation (ie people who carry knives often are cut) with causation (they get cut because they participate in shady activities).

Carrying a knife doesn't take away any options, it just adds some.

CR

[PanzerJaeger]

I only barely skimmed the thread so my comments might have already been mentioned...

Seems like a knife is much like a gun when used for self defense. Every situation is different, and you have to make the decision whether it is necessary to pull it. Is your life really in danger or is the guy just looking for some quick cash? And of course, why are you in that situation to begin with?

I think the point of the study was that a knife makes people more cocky and willing to get into bad situations. However, if you are a responsible, intelligent person, I certainly don't think you're safer without a means of defending yourself.

[Quintus.JC]

Is it even legal though (Carrying a knife)? I don't know about all the other places but in London with all the stop and search going on if I get caught with a knife it would be 6 years (max.) in prison for me, no matter if I never intend to use it.

[Oleander Ardens]

Frankly I don't know what I would do. I'm rather tall with 6'3 and rather heavy thanks to regular swimming and body training and I had courses in selfdefense. I guess the best think is to slowly retreat, trying to back-out looking non-agressive but ready to counter. Running might actually make it easier for them to harm you - seems that the brain is wired that way, just look what happened in battles when the enemy could no longer defend itself.

I agree that a trained man can take on a group, especially if he acts quickly with great force and possibly with a knife. But I don't want to come to that point.

[caravel]

It depends on where you live. I'd prefer to be in a position where I can defend myself rather than trust in the Labour government's stupidly flawed policies.

[Adrian II]

Sorry, I don't go with any of the rigid rules above. I'll stick with my Dad's, who said you should stand up for yourself and the things you value in life. In one situation it means you run, in another it means you fight bare-handed against superior force. In yet another it means you argue and apply your intelligence to the best of your ability to solve a situation. Most of the examples above don't tell me anything about knives, they only tell me what kind of person the poster is.

[SwordsMaster]

As someone who's been stabbed - twice - and didn't enjoy it, I would generally agree that picking your battles is important, and some things are just not worth fighting over. However, I agree wholeheartedly with Adrian. Sometimes you got to do what you got to do.

Also, I don't carry a knife except in my leatherman multitool.

[Rhyfelwyr]

I think the point of the study was that a knife makes people more cocky and willing to get into bad situations. However, if you are a responsible, intelligent person, I certainly don't think you're safer without a means of defending yourself.

Yes, I agreed with PJ!

[Tribesman]

Sometimes you got to do what you got to do.

Yes and it isn't pleasant .
And sometimes it doesn't work out very well ,carrying stuff frself defense doesn't mean you can defend yourself .
A good friend of mine got in a fight , he was entirely faultless in this instance and though outnumbered beat the crap out of them , but as a consequence he knew there would be a severe comeback . He took to carrying one of them Fairbairns on his arm because he knew he was going to have to defend himself , he very shortly ended up in hospital for a very long time .
Obviously the dagger wasn't sufficient so he obtained a nice little automatic as the gun and dagger should be sufficient to defend himself ...within a month he left a widow and two fatherless daughters .
Its funny really as he was someone that would always go well over the top if anyone produced a weapon in a confrontation .

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The first thing that strikes me is that if the other guy has a knife and you pull one you've just started a fight. In that situation you have two lethal weapons and unless you have the bigger knife and the balls to gut the other guy before he moves you're going to get cut bad. So that means pulling a knife if the other guy pulls one is a bad idea, no matter how it goes.

On the other hand if you pull a knife the other guy might pull a bigger knife or a gun, in which case you have to gut him again. Only this time because you waited for him to pull his weapon you've lost the initiative. So that's a bad idea.

Running might work, unless he's/they're faster, or can throw knives, or have a gun. So maybe you still get cut/shot/ Maybe you bleed out later in a ditch. Still not good.

Backing away slowly, getting to a place with people or handing over cash if that's what they want is probably your best bet. Even then things could go very bad and you could end up dead.

The only good way to carry a knife would seem to be to look scary so that people decide to mess with someone else instead. It would need to be a big knife and also visible. I believe that's what my Dad did in certain parts of the tropics. No use in London though, unless you figure prison is safer.

[LittleGrizzly]

In a situation when faced with a knife wielding mugger/thief whatever its the extreme responses that work best, look as crazy as they do, i have always figured telling people im HIV positive at this point would help, basically make out you don't care what happens aslong as you take this guy down with you

or

Hit him as hard as you can and then run as fast as you can, of course all depends on how hard (and fast) you can hit and how fast you can run...

or

Hand over everything and cooperate

I think anything in between would work as well, their the options i would have going through my head, of course if your looking at the craziest hardest guy alive then option 1 isn't going to work, if he's that big option 2 probably works better and well option 3 is the fall back position, i would use option 1 or 2 as i trust myself complete with adrenelin rush to be faster than any mugger i face

[Goofball]

Sorry, I don't go with any of the rigid rules above. I'll stick with my Dad's, who said you should stand up for yourself and the things you value in life. In one situation it means you run, in another it means you fight bare-handed against superior force. In yet another it means you argue and apply your intelligence to the best of your ability to solve a situation. Most of the examples above don't tell me anything about knives, they only tell me what kind of person the poster is.

Agreed.

Anybody saying you should stand you ground out of pride is an idiot.

[Fragony]

If someone wants to rob me he better mean it because I am sure as hell to proud for that.

edit; from my experience, the more there are the less trouble you are in. One is dangerous, two is very dangerous, 3 less dangerous and from there on less and less.

[HoreTore]

Yes, I agreed with PJ!

Why on earth do you start a thread complaining about a study if you agree with said study...?

[Husar]

You could throw some money into his general direction and then run away, assuming you're in a big city and he only has a small window of opportunity, as opposed to being in the middle of the sahara desert, you should get enough of a headstart to make it to somewhere safer. Or just kill him with your own gun but that might mean you get imprisoned for murder/manslaughter if you cannot prove that he actually wanted to mug you...
Stabbing him with a knife could lead to a similar charge I guess.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Why on earth do you start a thread complaining about a study if you agree with said study...?

I am agreeing that if you can trust yourself to be responsible then having a weapon as a last resort would be no bad thing. Because if you are facing a group attacking you for the sake of attacking you, then the situation can develop in a way that leaves you with a few options:

1. Run - if its works, great. If not, then you are stuck with step 2
2. Stand your ground (without weapon in hand) - if it works, both sides can back off, if not, then we will presume the other side in the aggressor. Taking you to step 3
3. Conflict - now, if they just want fisticuffs, there no need to up the odds. But if they pull out a knife and clearly make a move to use it, well then unless you are a lot stronger than them or know some fancy moves then a weapon would be useful. Plus taking out a weapon yourself may act as a deterrent, just like nations with nuclear weapons.

So its good to have something up your sleeve just in case.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I think whether running is a good plan depends a lot upon the nature of the conflict you're in. If someone threatened me with a knife and demanded my wallet, I reckon I would probably attempt to run, as chasing me down over a distance would seem a lot of trouble for a few quid, and they have no stake in actually hurting me per se-they just want my money. However, if the aggressor's objective seemed to be to injure/kill me, it would be far less clear cut.

As others have already pointed out, these stats are confounded by the fact that people who carry knifes are much more likely to be involved in nefarious activities that would increase your odds of getting stabbed. I would like to see a breakdown by type of knife carried, though. I imagine that the incidence of stabbings is far higher amongst people who carry Crocodile Dundee-style machetes than amongst people who carry little penknives.

How much money do you carry in your wallet? Doesn't make sense to risk getting chased down and stabbed for a few bucks. Some people are just crazy.

Better yet, carry a cheapo alternate wallet with some money and an old ID in it.

[HoreTore]

I am agreeing that if you can trust yourself to be responsible then having a weapon as a last resort would be no bad thing..

But the point of it wasn't about responsible people with perfect judgment, but the general public, wasn't it? And since very few people have been exposed to situations like these, it's likely that very few have the proper judgment, and hence them warning people against carrying knives, as it is false safety.

People in general are likely not to have the judgment required to know what to do, and as such carrying a knife is likely to do more damage than good.

Also, a few pints of scotch tend to seriously ruin your judgment on everything, and carrying a knife with you at such times is a genuinely bad idea.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Well I would rather have a weapon in my pocket and trust my judgement than trust in the reasoning of a group of attackers.