Ordination of female Catholic priests at Protestant church

[woad&fangs]

I thought that the issue with women priests was the Jesus did not choose women for his disciples when he could have.

Well duh, Jesus was a pretty smart guy. If you want to convert people then you have to have apostles that people will listen to. The average 0th century Middle Easterner was probably much more likely to listen to a man than to a woman. I would hope that we have moved on as a society to the point where we can listen to and respect women as equals.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Well duh, Jesus was a pretty smart guy. If you want to convert people then you have to have apostles that people will listen to. The average 0th century Middle Easterner was probably much more likely to listen to a man than to a woman. I would hope that we have moved on as a society to the point where we can listen to and respect women as equals.

That is what I was about to say!

I would have thought that Jesus would take into account the circumstances at the time. I remember one passage where Jesus questions one of the points of the ten commandments (basically for not being strict enough IIRC), and says to one follower that God designed such commandments with the weaknesses and attitudes of men in mind.

Even the words and actions God have therefore taken into account the attitudes of society at the time, and I think we should look at this as a possibility for Jesus not appointing any women disciples.

I am still in the early stages of my learning when it comes to scripture, so debate is good. What do you think of this post TuffStuff?

[ICantSpellDawg]

That is what I was about to say!

I would have thought that Jesus would take into account the circumstances at the time. I remember one passage where Jesus questions one of the points of the ten commandments (basically for not being strict enough IIRC), and says to one follower that God designed such commandments with the weaknesses and attitudes of men in mind.

Even the words and actions God have therefore taken into account the attitudes of society at the time, and I think we should look at this as a possibility for Jesus not appointing any women disciples.

I am still in the early stages of my learning when it comes to scripture, so debate is good. What do you think of this post TuffStuff?

What do I know?

Maybe when God thinks we need new laws he'll tell us like he did the last time and the time before that.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

What do I know?

Maybe when God thinks we need new laws he'll tell us like he did the last time and the time before that.

Tuff, that would be Armaggedon, wouldn't it?

Nice to see we've moved back towards an actual debate here.

A few things strike me. Where does it say only men can minister to the congregation? In the Old Testemant, actually. The OT also allows divorce though, in the same book no less. So scriptural authority there is compromised.

Where does Jesus say women cannot minister to a congregation?

Nowhere.

The is entirely an issue of interpretation, just as the issue of the marriage of priests is. I look it up, it was Pope Gregory in the 11th Century who first forbade marriage and the actual ban did not enter Church law until 1139. In other words clerics were marrying for longer than they were celebate. Peter was married and he's supposed to be the final source of Papal and episclical authority.

If the Catholic Church wishes to forbid women and those with spouses from entering the Church that's its buisiness but as far as I can see it has no hard basis in scripture at all.

Edit: Further checking indicates that Anglican ministers who enter the priesthood are allowed to remain married. That implies that the Catholic Church recognises an Anglican marriage as valid within the Church, which is interesting as an anglican marriage isn't a scrament like a Roman Catholic one.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Tuff, that would be Armaggedon, wouldn't it?

Nice to see we've moved back towards an actual debate here.

A few things strike me. Where does it say only men can minister to the congregation? In the Old Testemant, actually. The OT also allows divorce though, in the same book no less. So scriptural authority there is compromised.

Where does Jesus say women cannot minister to a congregation?

Nowhere.

The is entirely an issue of interpretation, just as the issue of the marriage of priests is. I look it up, it was Pope Gregory in the 11th Century who first forbade marriage and the actual ban did not enter Church law until 1139. In other words clerics were marrying for longer than they were celebate. Peter was married and he's supposed to be the final source of Papal and episclical authority.

If the Catholic Church wishes to forbid women and those with spouses from entering the Church that's its buisiness but as far as I can see it has no hard basis in scripture at all.

Edit: Further checking indicates that Anglican ministers who enter the priesthood are allowed to remain married. That implies that the Catholic Church recognises an Anglican marriage as valid within the Church, which is interesting as an anglican marriage isn't a scrament like a Roman Catholic one.

Why did God come to earth as a man and not a woman? Sounds like God might be brought to court today for sexual discrimination.

There is nothing in scripture to forbid female priests. I've already said this. There is also nothing to suggest that there were ever female priests (unless they were believed to be males at the time of ordination). If there is no precedent for female priests, there seems to be enormous precedent for ministers to be males (including God's choice of body to visit earth in.)

Why did God create Man first? Then come to Earth as a man? Why were only males Rabbi's? And why did Jesus have only Male apostles? Maybe you (general you) are thinking "Oh that is because Man made the bible and God didn't have anything to do with it" - maybe you (not you personally) shouldn't be playing this game. That would mean that scripture doesn't mean anything to you either - so why bother citing it?

http://www.womenpriests.org/index.asp - this is the way you do it appropriately.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Why did God come to earth as a man and not a woman? Sounds like God might be brought to court today for sexual discrimination.

There is nothing in scripture to forbid female priests. I've already said this. There is also nothing to suggest that there were ever female priests (unless they were believed to be males at the time of ordination). If there is no precedent for female priests, there seems to be enormous precedent for ministers to be males (including God's choice of body to visit earth in.)

Why did God create Man first? Then come to Earth as a man? Why were only males Rabbi's? And why did Jesus have only Male apostles? Maybe you (general you) are thinking "Oh that is because Man made the bible and God didn't have anything to do with it" - maybe you (not you personally) shouldn't be playing this game. That would mean that scripture doesn't mean anything to you either - so why bother citing it?

Scripture is quite clearly flawed and contradictory. Neither Christ nor any other prophet was present when the decision to admit or reject books from the canon was taken. I would argue that an acknowledgement of biblical fallacy is built into the very document. The Gospels do not even agree with each other in several cases and the fact that four were selected to begin with suggests no one account was considered definitive.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Scripture is quite clearly flawed and contradictory. Neither Christ nor any other prophet was present when the decision to admit or reject books from the canon was taken. I would argue that an acknowledgment of biblical fallacy is built into the very document. The Gospels do not even agree with each other in several cases and the fact that four were selected to begin with suggests no one account was considered definitive.

Many people who argue for female priests believe that not even scripture can be trusted because of this, that or the other thing. If we can't trust scripture as Christians, why do we trust anything? More importantly, why is it even important that women can be ordained to preside over nonsense with no meaning? We are left with modern "morality" at the root of the desired change which is the danger.

This opens us up to something similar to Unitarian Universalism as far as I am concerned. Unitarian Universalism is a hogs throw away from Nihilism, once they get past all of their right meaning confusion. I can't wait for Lemur to come into our discussion to cite that there is no such thing as a slippery slope. Tell that to the Unitarians that used to belong to a Christian church.

[Rhyfelwyr]

I respect the scripture 100%. I just think you are giving too much weight to Papal traditions.

If women are so godless, why should they be present in a congregation at all? After all, Eve was created out of Adam's rib and so by that logic women are no different from any of God's creatures in that they would be here to serve men only.

But that is clearly not true from everything Jesus does and his treatment of women.

And what is the point bringing up Rabbi's?

[woad&fangs]

I think he is trying to say that Christian priests are a continuation of Jewish Rabbis.

[ICantSpellDawg]

I respect the scripture 100%. I just think you are giving too much weight to Papal traditions.

If women are so godless, why should they be present in a congregation at all? After all, Eve was created out of Adam's rib and so by that logic women are no different from any of God's creatures in that they would be here to serve men only.

But that is clearly not true from everything Jesus does and his treatment of women.

And what is the point bringing up Rabbi's?

Who is saying that women are godless? They have a special place in the Church, but it is different from that of males. The Bible is patriarchal - chalk that up to bigotry through the ages, but it is really the way things are. Men hold the first place in the home and there are laws regulating a man and his wife. They have very different general functions. The modern society may be trying to destroy these differences, but if you believe in the Bible as divine truth - I'm sure that you wouldn't presume to know more about the male/female dynamic than the writer of that divine truth, would you? The God of the Bible IN NO WAY is parallel or in sync with modern morality as a whole and it is both foolish and futile to believe he ever was. The Lord of the old testament ordered the death of sinners and whole cities of men, women and children. Sure, the New Covenant established a new order, but didn't reveal what many today wish that it had. To believe that you know more than God is Hubris and thoroughly lacking in sound biblical judgment. Adam and Eve were cast out for such pride.

Read that pro-female ordination site and the reasons that they women should be allowed to be priests. I found a number of wild overstatements, but they aren't being disrespectful to the Pope or ordaining female priests illegally outside of the Church.