Yes, the palestianians are indeed the only bad guys in the middle east.

[HoreTore]

http://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/2008/07/21/541381.html

(the article is in norwegian, but the video is the original one, just press the big play button)

How nice it is to see good, honest soldiers defending against the baby-eating terrorists!

In other news, handcuffing and blindfolding people and then shooting their legs is now a new interrogation method employed to protect your safety.

Sickening.

and for those who will undoubtedly question the authenticity of the video; it comes from an israeli source.

[Husar]

This was an isolated case, everybody knows that there are a few black sheep in every army but the Palestinians are all evil, every last one of them, especially the newborns!

Ok that was my defense attempt and now I want to know how long that soldier and everybody who participated are going to prison.

[Dâriûsh]

In English. Israeli source.

English. From Al Jaz

[Dutch_guy]

Sickening.

Pretty much sums up that vid.

[Banquo's Ghost]

I saw this video this morning and whilst it is deeply disturbing, the likelihood is that the soldier will be facing due process.

Whereas if he had been a member of Hamas, he'd be celebrated and would have been using real ammunition, not a rubber bullet.

The IDF are no angels, and there are many, many incidents like this not captured on film from the occupation. It's sad that young men are brutalised to this extent by the ongoing occupation and the necessity of imposing draconian rules to maintain it.

But if the Palestinian terrorists stopped killing Israeli citizens with gay abandon and embraced a non-violent resistance to occupation, the moral outrage felt at such breaches might actually have some merit.

[Fragony]

Poor baby.

[HoreTore]

But if the Palestinian terrorists stopped killing Israeli citizens with gay abandon and embraced a non-violent resistance to occupation, the moral outrage felt at such breaches might actually have some merit.

Was this guy a terrorist? No? Then what does he have to do with the terrorists? His nationality? Are you responsible whenever some brit screws up?

Also, the investigation of this incident started after the video was known, even though there were high officers present.

[Don Corleone]

Was this guy a terrorist? No? Then what does he have to do with the terrorists? His nationality? Are you responsible whenever some brit screws up?

Also, the investigation of this incident started after the video was known, even though there were high officers present.

Banquo was comparing the two societies and the response the footage received in Israel versus the hypothetical reception a similar video would have received in Palestine. He also pointed out that the individual in question is facing disciplinary action, something unlikely in Fatah or Hamas.

That being said, the video is troubling and the behavior captured is clearly immoral and unethical, by any civilized standard.

But remind me one more time where the Israeli Constitution calls for the destruction of Palestine, or public leaders of Israel have called for the global massacre of Palestinians, whereever they may live.

***No Tribesman, I won't repost all those links I found for you the 3rd or 4th time ago this came up. Go dig through the archives and find them yourself.

[HoreTore]

That being said, the video is troubling and the behavior captured is clearly immoral and unethical, by any civilized standard.

Immoral and unethical? This is no less than torture, plain and simple.

[Don Corleone]

Immoral and unethical? This is no less than torture, plain and simple.

I'm sorry, if you feel and really, really naughty adds to my condemnation, then by all means, allow me to append my original statement. I don't think I know how you get much more condemning than immoral and unethical.... basically it's indefensible.

Not quite sure what you're getting at here, chief.

[HoreTore]

I'm sorry, if you feel and really, really naughty adds to my condemnation, then by all means, allow me to append my original statement. I don't think I know how you get much more condemning than immoral and unethical.... basically it's indefensible.

Not quite sure what you're getting at here, chief.

No no, I wasn't arguing, I was only adding to it, my friend

[Tribesman]

But remind me one more time where the Israeli Constitution calls for the destruction of Palestine

What constitution is that Don ?

or public leaders of Israel have called for the global massacre of Palestinians, whereever they may live.

Good point Don public leaders have only called for getting rid of all non jews between the Nile and Euphrates which isn't nearly as bad as global is it

[KrooK]

Ortodox Jews are calling to clear historical Palestine area from all non jew people. This can be compared.

BTW this time we saw in on movie. How many times it happens silently.
If colonel is giving such an example what is doing rest?

[Ronin]

just to comment on the title of this thread...there are no "good guys" in the middle east.

[Xiahou]

I saw this video this morning and whilst it is deeply disturbing, the likelihood is that the soldier will be facing due process.

Whereas if he had been a member of Hamas, he'd be celebrated and would have been using real ammunition, not a rubber bullet.

The IDF are no angels, and there are many, many incidents like this not captured on film from the occupation. It's sad that young men are brutalised to this extent by the ongoing occupation and the necessity of imposing draconian rules to maintain it.

But if the Palestinian terrorists stopped killing Israeli citizens with gay abandon and embraced a non-violent resistance to occupation, the moral outrage felt at such breaches might actually have some merit.

Wow... well said.

[PanzerJaeger]

Thats it?

From the initial post I actually expected several palestinians to be lined up and shot in the legs! I was sorely disappointed.

According to Palestinian Ashraf Abu-Rahma’s testimony, he suffered a toe injury and was treated by a local military paramedic and was later on released by the soldiers.

Much, much worse goes on among Western police forces, and it seems like the guy will be punished.

Lesson in life kids: If you get involved in a riot, you can expect to get hit with batons, tear gas, and rubber bullets. The people who've had jagged rocks thrown at them all day might be in the mood to take a little stress out... so get away from a riot as soon as possible.

I just thank god this guy didn't lose his toe!

[HoreTore]

Lesson in life kids: If you get involved in a riot, you can expect to get hit with batons, tear gas, and rubber bullets.

Yes. That's certainly to be expected. What you can't expect though, is to get it after you've been detained for half an hour and you're handcuffed and blindfolded. That's the thing with this. The armed forces here wasn't shooting at a crowd going nuts, they were shooting an already subdued person. And that's called torture, or sadism. There was absolutely no reason whatsoever to shoot this person or cause him any harm.*




*except if you get a boner from making other people suffer, of course

[Dâriûsh]

Banquo was comparing the two societies and the response the footage received in Israel versus the hypothetical reception a similar video would have received in Palestine. He also pointed out that the individual in question is facing disciplinary action, something unlikely in Fatah or Hamas.

Tell me... Are you by these prejudices implying that Palestine is an inhuman host of barbarism and savagery?

But remind me one more time where the Israeli Constitution calls for the destruction of Palestine, or public leaders of Israel have called for the global massacre of Palestinians, whereever they may live.

***No Tribesman, I won't repost all those links I found for you the 3rd or 4th time ago this came up. Go dig through the archives and find them yourself.

It does not. It does not recognize Palestine as a state to begin with. By contrast, Fatah recognizes Israel’s right to exist (since 1993). The foolish Hamas does not.

As for public leaders of Israel and nasty comments...

One of the most blatant examples of public incitement in the days before the attack on Jabal al-Mukkabir was a circular widely distributed and posted around Jerusalem and in West Bank settlements. Signed by a long list of rabbis, it called for acts of revenge on Palestinians in retribution for the Mercaz HaRav shooting: “Each and everyone is required to imagine what the enemy is plotting to do to us and match it measure for measure.”
Among the signatories was Rabbi Ya’acov Yosef, son of Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, the former Sephardic chief rabbi of Israel and spiritual leader of Shas, a party in Prime Minister Ehud Olmert’s coalition government.

In the Knesset, former cabinet minister Effie Eitam accused the Arab legislators of “treason” for participating in the rally, adding, “We have to drive you out, as well as everyone else who took part” in the demonstration. Days later, Olmert’s former Deputy Prime Minister Avigdor Lieberman repeated the ethnic cleansing threat in the Knesset, telling Arab members, “You are temporary here,” and “One day we will take care of you.”

Rather, “in the late 1990s and onwards,” writes Amir Ben-Porat, a professor in the Department of Behavioral Sciences at Ben Gurion University, “‘Death to the Arabs’ became a common chant in almost every football [soccer] stadium in Israel.” Ben-Porat, who authored a study on the use of the chant, says that because of the importance of soccer in Israeli society and its high profile in the media, “This chant is heard far beyond the stadium.

Link




As for PanzerJaeger...

[Geoffrey S]

The armed forces here wasn't shooting at a crowd going nuts, they were shooting an already subdued person. And that's called torture, or sadism. There was absolutely no reason whatsoever to shoot this person or cause him any harm.

Thankfully, it appears the IDF agrees with you.

[Tribesman]

Thankfully, it appears the IDF agrees with you.

Does it though ? the staff sergeant is apparently complaining that he is being screwed over by the army to protect its image and cover up for the officers .
It seems that he understands the armys wish to smooth over the bad publicity that the film created but not at the expense of him as he was only following orders .
It does raise the obvious question though doesn't it , why was this investigation blocked in the first place and only started again now that the film is out in the public domain .

[Marshal Murat]

It does raise the obvious question though doesn't it , why was this investigation blocked in the first place and only started again now that the film is out in the public domain

Because the IDF realized that they would pay for this later, mentally and spiritually. (The Pope told me not to be a cynic, so...yea.)

[Geoffrey S]

Well, if the IDF didn't agree with the view that this was unnecessarily vicious they wouldn't be trying to cover it up. They at least recognize it as inappropriate. These sort of incidents show that with modern technology, cameras can be watching anywhere and anything they do (in public) can be used against them and adversely effect future operations; if that doesn't set them thinking about their standards, I don't know what will.

[CountArach]

What sickens me isn't the video - it is the fact that this goes on every day WITHOUT the video cameras there to capture it.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Does it though ? the staff sergeant is apparently complaining that he is being screwed over by the army to protect its image and cover up for the officers .
It seems that he understands the armys wish to smooth over the bad publicity that the film created but not at the expense of him as he was only following orders .
It does raise the obvious question though doesn't it , why was this investigation blocked in the first place and only started again now that the film is out in the public domain .

Are you prepared to assert (and support) that this is evidence of a larger, programatic effort by the IDF? That those in leadership among the IDF are tacitly authorizing/encouraging the use of violence in this manner in what amounts to a de facto (albeit never publicly acknowledged) policy?

If you're going to be surprised by an organization's knee-jerk action being to hush things up when stupid/outrageous incidents occur and protect it's image, you're going to walk around much surprised.

As an aside, bureaucratic organizations, particularly those forming part of a government, are prone to this cover-up approach. Sadly, it frequently (usually?) backfires. I've always wondered why the behavior seems to repeat, however. Is it because people in these organizations cannot accept the fact that everything is/will be photographed and disseminated (the new modern norm) or is it that the tactic is usually successful -- and the public remains blissfully unaware of much that would outrage it.

[LittleGrizzly]

But if the Palestinian terrorists stopped killing Israeli citizens with gay abandon and embraced a non-violent resistance to occupation, the moral outrage felt at such breaches might actually have some merit.

So if your the same nationality as a terrorist torture is to be expected, tit for tat ?

Terrorist groups do these things and far worse, it is the reason for thier name terrorist, developed democracys do not do this kind of thing, hence the outrage.

[PanzerJaeger]

Yes. That's certainly to be expected. What you can't expect though, is to get it after you've been detained for half an hour and you're handcuffed and blindfolded. That's the thing with this. The armed forces here wasn't shooting at a crowd going nuts, they were shooting an already subdued person. And that's called torture, or sadism. There was absolutely no reason whatsoever to shoot this person or cause him any harm.*

*except if you get a boner from making other people suffer, of course

That's why this soldier is most likely going to suffer far more punishment than a minor toe injury.

As for the point you're trying to make in this thread... the phrase "making a mountain out of a molehill" comes to mind. An IDF soldier stepped out of line and will be punished, along with his superiors when this is all over. When IDF soldiers are captured, tortured and killed - palestinians rejoice... kind of explains why this kind of thing (a virtual toe holocaust) could happen.


Again, though, the most important thing in this whole horrible, terrible, disgusting display of Israeli torture and brutality is that the guy's toe recovered!

[Don Corleone]

Tell me... Are you by these prejudices implying that Palestine is an inhuman host of barbarism and savagery?

No. And in fact, I don't remember saying anything of the sort. I don't think Palestinians are inhuman barbarians or savages, but I do think they are led by factions that resort to some pretty barbaric and savage acts from time to time.

I actually have a great deal of sympathy for Palestinians. Few people on the planet have a worse lot in life. Where you and I disagree (or where Beirut and I would disagree, if you prefer) is that I do not hold Israel to be the chief problem faced by the Palestinians. In my view and assessment of facts and policies over the past 60 years, I would say Palestinian leadership has been the greatest problem faced by the Palestinian people over the past 60 years.

[Kralizec]

As an aside, bureaucratic organizations, particularly those forming part of a government, are prone to this cover-up approach. Sadly, it frequently (usually?) backfires. I've always wondered why the behavior seems to repeat, however. Is it because people in these organizations cannot accept the fact that everything is/will be photographed and disseminated (the new modern norm) or is it that the tactic is usually successful -- and the public remains blissfully unaware of much that would outrage it.

Possibly...but I think that it's usually a matter of the persons involved having a bigger interest (their reputation, jobs, possiblity of jail) in covering it up than the larger organisation.

[Tribesman]

Are you prepared to assert (and support) that this is evidence of a larger, programatic effort by the IDF? That those in leadership among the IDF are tacitly authorizing/encouraging the use of violence in this manner in what amounts to a de facto (albeit never publicly acknowledged) policy?

Going on their past history it wouldn't be much of a surprise .
How many times have they been caught doing nasty stuff and claimed it is an isolated incident by one person , then another isolated incident that really doesn't happen that much , then after they keep getting caught gone OK maybe its not that isolated but it isn't that bad , then fought all the way to the supreme court to be allowed to keep doing the stuff they said was bad .

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I saw this video this morning and whilst it is deeply disturbing, the likelihood is that the soldier will be facing due process.

Whereas if he had been a member of Hamas, he'd be celebrated and would have been using real ammunition, not a rubber bullet.

The IDF are no angels, and there are many, many incidents like this not captured on film from the occupation. It's sad that young men are brutalised to this extent by the ongoing occupation and the necessity of imposing draconian rules to maintain it.

But if the Palestinian terrorists stopped killing Israeli citizens with gay abandon and embraced a non-violent resistance to occupation, the moral outrage felt at such breaches might actually have some merit.

My view--given the early history of Israel (Irgun, stern gang, deir yassin massacre etc) is that if the israelis were weak and the palastinians strong the situation would be reversed today, and you would now be calling the israelis terrorists.