Yes, the palestianians are indeed the only bad guys in the middle east.

[LittleGrizzly]

The US government and the independent people of the US thru non-governmental organizations like the red cross and the thousands of church sponsored programs give more money, time, food and medical aid to countries in need than most other countries combined and we still get spit at by people who cant see past their predigests.

Almost all developed countries give aid, it is not a get out jail free card, ohh sure we did this and that but look at all the aid we've given surely were still the good guys ?

I suppose the other part of it is Americas claim that it does things for the good of the world, the majority of the time its just its own national interests guiding policy, which is fair enough just don't claim to be helping when your just acting through national interest....

[Tribesman]

The US government and the independent people of the US thru non-governmental organizations like the red cross and the thousands of church sponsored programs give more money, time, food and medical aid to countries in need than most other countries combined and we still get spit at by people who cant see past their predigests.

There was this carpenter a while ago that told a story about someone that gave lots of money and thought it made him special .

[Incongruous]

Ok, Redleg the U.S.A has never attempted to divide the middle-east for its own gain, never ever...

When I said the racism in Israel I was talking about political racism, you know like you guys had 60 or so years ago, and I think you knew that. If you attempt to refute this you are either increadibly pro-Israel/zionist or you do not care to read.

Peace cannot be forced! Yes well done we are both starting to get somewhere. You cannot force peace very well, though I expect it can be done. Innstead you can start being reasonable and realistic when it comes to The Holy Land, and please don't give me that crap about a Mid-East Road map, because Israel is still building settlements and the U.S.A does not give a toss.

The U.S.A has every power to force Israel back to its borders but you seem to feel that you cannot do this, perhaps ten more years of suicide bombings will make the U.S.A see sense.

I am not realistic for not indulging myself in White Tower generalisations about the state of man's civic society reminiscent of Aristotle's? Yeah and pigs can fly.
C;mon give me more of ya 'ism's.

[Redleg]

Ok, Redleg the U.S.A has never attempted to divide the middle-east for its own gain, never ever...

Control aspects of the Middle East would be correct - attempt to divide arguement falls flat on its face when looking at history. The Middle-East was divided by France and England as part of their mandate at the end of World War 2. Your agruement wasnt about control other nations but dividing the total middle-east. This is a false arguement.

When I said the racism in Israel I was talking about political racism, you know like you guys had 60 or so years ago, and I think you knew that. If you attempt to refute this you are either increadibly pro-Israel/zionist or you do not care to read.f

Sorry there Bopa - racism is racism in all its ugly forms. I dont seperate one form of racism from the other. You want racism to end take a closer look at your own nation before criticizing other nations on racism. As for calling me a Zionist - that is laughable since I firmly believe both sides are wrong. So try again with a different label.

Peace cannot be forced! Yes well done we are both starting to get somewhere. You cannot force peace very well, though I expect it can be done. Innstead you can start being reasonable and realistic when it comes to The Holy Land, and please don't give me that crap about a Mid-East Road map, because Israel is still building settlements and the U.S.A does not give a toss.

Again reasonable and realistic is not something you have presented - you have presented just one type of arguement. Nope wasn't taking about the Mid-East Road Map but something else entirily. Do a little research into Jimmy Carter's peace building efforts in the that region.

The U.S.A has every power to force Israel back to its borders but you seem to feel that you cannot do this, perhaps ten more years of suicide bombings will make the U.S.A see sense.

Again the United States can not force Israel back to its pre-1967 borders - what we can do is encourage them, and even force sanctions onto them to to so - but in the end its up to Israel to do the right thing. I find statement saying the United States can force another nation to do something as not talking a peaceful nor realistic approach to the situation. Maybe ten more years of suicide bombings will force both Israel and the Palenstine people to see a path to peace.

I am not realistic for not indulging myself in White Tower generalisations about the state of man's civic society reminiscent of Aristotle's? Yeah and pigs can fly.
C;mon give me more of ya 'ism's.

you didnt even come close to smashing the arguement given I didnt use an ism - again you fail to address the actual question.

[Tribesman]

Again the United States can not force Israel back to its pre-1967 borders

Why not ? you forced N.Korea back to its line ,you forced saddam out of the province he claimed as Iraqi territory , you forced Russia out of Afghanistan .
Why is Israel so different ?

[Redleg]

Why not ? you forced N.Korea back to its line ,you forced saddam out of the province he claimed as Iraqi territory , you forced Russia out of Afghanistan .
Why is Israel so different ?

Since he is speaking of a peaceful solution - then the answer is we can not force them back, all we can do is encourage them by negoation, concessions, and sanctions.

If you wish to discuss purely military means - we can address that also, but that goes against his initial premise, and if that is what he desire for the United States to do, it would make his whole arguement one of severe hyprocrisy.

But just to play along - for one being where will we start the invasion of Israel at? In order to go to war with Israel how much military force will be required? What is the available military force available given the current committment of troops? Which region are you will to sacrifice to complete defeat in order to force a somewhat allie back to its pre-1967 borders? So if you care to continue with that course of discussion you are going to have to do a lot better with the arguement, and are you willing to make the premise Bopa is arguing one of complete hypocrisy?

Now as for forcing North Korea back to its line - shall we discuss history of that conflict some more? Given that the forcing was done at a significant cost? Given that several times the front line shifted along the hills that make up the DMZ.

Do you wish the United States to fund Islamic Fundmental groups like we did in Afganstan to help force the Russians to leave? Afganstan is not a situation where the United States forced Russia out, we helped to fund the organizations that actually accomplished that task. One of Bopa chief compliants is one of short term thinking that was pursued in doing so, now I might disagree with him regarding how much blame solely rests on the United States in that regard - he is correct short term thinking has created a mess in the Middle-East starting with the British and French Mandates after WW1. By funding more Islamic "Terrorist" groups to force Israel to its pre-1967 borders would be just that type of short term thinking that Bopa is arguing against - which in essence supports the arguement about the United States can not force Israel back to its pre-1967 borders in that way. Unless of course he is willing to make a complete hypocrisy of his arguement.

Now for Saddam its rather easy - we developed a base of operations with Allied nations to do so? Do we have that same ability with the Nations surrounding Israel? Now a collation of sorts can be developed but its another short term thinking type of operation - are you willing to have the Irish troops occupy Israel to maintain the peace between the two groups? I am not willing to put US Troops into such a circumstance at all. Last time we got involved in that type of conflict - a bombing resulted that killed men who were not allowed to defend themselves under the rules of engagement.

So do you wish for more violence in the Middle-East there Tribesy? Does that equation mean its a short term goal or a long term goal?

And why is Israel different? Let's see - are they committing acts of War against another soverign nation or are they conducting operations against a non-national group within its own borders?

I don't agree with what Israel is doing - but its not the United States place to force Israel back to pre-1967 borders? If you want that done - find another world policeman to accomplish that task.
We got enough problems of our on creation to deal with then adding another one to the alreadly burning bonfire that is just barely in control.

I have seen how well the United States plays the policeman of the world - your damned if you do, and your damned if you don't. Let the Irish play policeman for a bit.

[Incongruous]

What the heck Redleg?
Ok divide can have many meanings and does not have to pertain to people drawing maps on lines, you know this, so stop playing around.

Racism is racism, oh man Redleg this is awsome!. Are you trying to equate what Israel is doing to something NZ and Britain are doing? Do you even know what Israel does to the pelestinians? Or do you just not give a toss?

Again Redleg I am talking about sorting out The Holy Land, the U.S is not doing it, as long as you allow Israel to act in a fascist and illegal way you aint gonna get spit for anything. So why hold back?
Why is Israel able to drag you down with it in the mid-east? It's nothing but a gian anchor round your neck. Lose it. You are it's purse and you control your own strings.

Oh and what argument was I meant to smash? I just said that I didn't like such state of civic nature type remarks for the reason that they are too generalised and white tower.
As for the 'ism comment, I was just making fun of the term Warlordism, it's awsome

[Conradus]

And why is Israel different? Let's see - are they committing acts of War against another soverign nation or are they conducting operations against a non-national group within its own borders?

Arguably? They're doing both.

[Xiahou]

There was this carpenter a while ago that told a story about someone that gave lots of money and thought it made him special .

I think he also said something about worrying about your own wrongs before worrying about those of others.

[yesdachi]

Almost all developed countries give aid, it is not a get out jail free card, ohh sure we did this and that but look at all the aid we've given surely were still the good guys ?

So you don’t think we are the good guys?


And Tribes, I am not looking to be considered special I am just defensive about comments like this.

Well moral power I think went out the window a long time ago – Bopa about the US

Our government acts big and stupid (like all other governments, we just happen to have one of the biggest therefore its seen acting stupid more often) but to suggest the country is without morals is short sighted. Look a little further and you can see that the country is filled with people doing good.

A few posts later Bopa says

I understand that you as superpower can do what ever you like

If that is true, and we were filled with immoral people wouldn’t we be pillaging countries less powerful than we are rather than sending charity, supplies and soldiers there to help them.

Look at the people on this board that are from the US, do you find them without morals?

Don’t let your predigests for American politics spoil your view of Americans. Name something that the US has done that is crummy to another country and then ask a regular American if they agree with the decision. I don’t think so. I still get pissed that we didn’t send a few troops to the Falklands back in the 80’s.

[LittleGrizzly]

Before i start i would like to say i think there is a difference between the US goverments actions and its citizens opinion, i dont think for a second the majority of americans would support death squads in latin america for example...

So you don’t think we are the good guys?

Not so much not nice guys, in the equivelent of the world playground your the big kid and sure you steal the other kids sweets now and again but you tend not to beat on people too much and stick up for the smallest kids now and again, your an improvement on the bullys we had before

I suppose a better example of my point about giving aid not making up for doing bad things would be a fictional afghanastan, imagine if Afghanastan back in september 2001 had been the most generous aid giving nation, the country gave a large portion of its GDP to aid, and many of it citizens gave to charity very generously and went around the world helping people, and then 9/11 happens with the taliban sheltering al qaeda, all thier generousity (even if it alot more than the bad they have done) wouldn't seem quite so important, thats why similar pleas about generous aid giving would fall on deaf ears in latin america and the middle east...

Look a little further and you can see that the country is filled with people doing good.

I think bopa talks of american policy rather than american citizens

I think he also said something about worrying about your own wrongs before worrying about those of others.

Irony right here...