Karadzic arrested

[Fragony]

And a charming fellow he must be...

Quite. Certainly not amateurs but the geniusses in the Hague wanted a low-key mission, so no heavy arms that doesn't really do much against tanks. He's lucky to be alive, don't blame the soldiers for the politicians. And the actual numbers are a bit off because a lot of the people captured came from afghanistan, pakistan, didn't you know that?

[Tribesman]

The facts are:
Accepted/Media figures: 7000-8000 men and boys killed
Bodies founded: 2 442.
The fact is the bodies buried in the Srebrenica Memorial Complex are not all killed in July 1995, when the alleged genocide took place, including cases of people who died natural deaths a full 13 years before the event took place. Ok, that according a Serbian Historian, Milivoje Ivanisevic but …

And the fact is the Serbian government after long denying any role in the events says over 7800 were done away with and the Bosnian serb government apologises for the mass murder and puts the figure at 8732

[Brenus]

“Brenus, your reasoning doesn't stand up to elementary scrutiny by a court of law. The victims were dispersed in groups over a wide area, prior to being killed in more or less remote spots. The fact that not all of them have been exhumed and properly identified does not detract from the intentionally, the systematic nature or the mass scale of this murder. I share your feelings about the ineptitude and lack of balance of the court in The Hague, but that shouldn't tempt us into denying crimes of this magnitude.”

Well, I do think his lawyers will do it. I do think that if somebody is accused of a crime, if no bodies are found, it will stand scrutiny.
I was recovering from a mission when it happened, and I was told that the victims were put in buses, the executed.
Now, you are telling me that they were dispersed in groups: Lawyers will go on that.
They will go for the fact that from 20 000 initial victims, we are now from 5000- 4000 (1000 difference !!!), and accounted bodies is around 2000 – 3000.
They will challenge the Genocide.

What make me furious (and do remember I was there during the First Offensive, and for Zepa) is without exaggeration, we could still prosecute Karadic. War crime, mass murder, etc, but in presenting charges which shouldn’t stand, we just give him the opportunity to “escape”.
I am quite sure he will be sentence, but on wrong charges.
Like Milosevic.
When I was negotiating with Kraesnic in Pale, I was amazed by the amount of hate displayed by his translator towards the Muslims, her former neighbours.

No body denies (even the Serbs) the intention. But we speak of justice, and the reasons of why it happened.

We’ve got Karadic, I want Mladic.

[KarlXII]

It weren't exactly innocent lambs that got butchered, good riddance.

http://www.amazon.com/Jihad-Trail-Po.../dp/0674008774

chapter 7 I believe, 'the faillure to craft jihad in eastern europe'.

So some of them were Muslims, fewer Jihadists, and this justifies all the killings?

[Fragony]

So some of them were Muslims, fewer Jihadists, and this justifies all the killings?

No it just makes it more fun.

[HoreTore]

So some of them were Muslims, fewer Jihadists, and this justifies all the killings?

In the eyes of the extremists, yes.

[Fragony]

Oh common you couldn't have taken that seriously.

[HoreTore]

Oh common you couldn't have taken that seriously.

Taken what seriously? Your bookiebook? No, I see such books as a way of looking into the minds of the insane, little else...

[Fragony]

Taken what seriously? Your bookiebook? No, I see such books as a way of looking into the minds of the insane, little else...

My bad I thought you were refering to this; No it just makes it more fun.

And you better don't call Gilles Kepel an author of a bookiebook, you might just piss of AdrianII and you know how he can be when his blood is up.

[Don Corleone]

So Fragony, let's see if I can't clear the fog for you a bit...

Okay, let's set aside whether or not Karadzic and Mladic were within their rights doing what they did to the Muslims.

What about what the Serbs in Serbia and Bosnia did to their Croatian neighbors? I mean, granted, the Croatians are mostly Catholic, not Orthodox like the Serbs, but they're certainly not Muslim. Still okay?

[Adrian II]

[..] bookiebook..

HoreTore, check your factiefacts before you postiepost.

I never thought a man could disqualify himself with one word; you've shown us that it can be done.

[Don Corleone]

I'm sorry, but can I get a timeout here for a second? Much like the use of the term "BabyMama" in reference to Michelle Obama, which had a lot more connotation than I would have thought, I believe the term "bookiebook" must carry some weight of which I'm unaware. Why is the term "bookiebook" causing a response?

[Don Corleone]

What about what the Serbs in Serbia and Bosnia did to their Croatian neighbors? I mean, granted, the Croatians are mostly Catholic, not Orthodox like the Serbs, but they're certainly not Muslim. Still okay?

And before I leave anybody with the impression that I have a horse in this race, what the Croatians did in 1995 when they reclaimed a lot of the breakaway territories was no better.

[Fragony]

So Fragony, let's see if I can't clear the fog for you a bit...

Okay, let's set aside whether or not Karadzic and Mladic were within their rights doing what they did to the Muslims.

What about what the Serbs in Serbia and Bosnia did to their Croatian neighbors? I mean, granted, the Croatians are mostly Catholic, not Orthodox like the Serbs, but they're certainly not Muslim. Still okay?

Oh common of course it's wrong but it didn't just fall from the sky. Some people think it did though, wonderous, evil serbs suddenly go .

[rory_20_uk]

The trial will be to establish degrees of guilt, not ascertain whether he might be innocent. Probable sentence is life imprisonment.

[HoreTore]

HoreTore, check your factiefacts before you postiepost.

I never thought a man could disqualify himself with one word; you've shown us that it can be done.

My god, doesn't anyone here watch the Simpsons?




(oh and yeah, I only checked frags first linkylink, the last one sounds a bit more serious)

oh, and Adrian, you're excused from the simpsons thingy, because of your old age and because I'm not sure if they get the show in the retirement home...

[Don Corleone]

Oh common of course it's wrong but it didn't just fall from the sky. Some people think it did though, wonderous, evil serbs suddenly go apeshitomg.

Now, that is a horse of a very different color, and much different than what you've been saying up until now. Of course the Serbs have a rationale for what they did. Nobody just wakes up one day and says "I feel like being really evil" today.

But sooner or later, you have to let these things go. Of all the people in the world, I would argue the Japanese have kind of set the bar for healthy forgiveness and closure. They probably still resent being hit with atomic bombs, but for their own good, they let it go, and the eye-for-an-eye cycle was ended.

[Fragony]

Well we are probably talking about a donkey of a different breed because they are still pissed about the crusades. Serbs got theirselves on the receiving end of the great holy codemnation but history will judge them much more mildly.

[HoreTore]

Well we are probably talking about a donkey of a different breed because they are still pissed about the crusades.

Kinda like the serbs are pissed because of some battle 1000 years ago?

[Fragony]

Kinda like the serbs are pissed because of some battle 1000 years ago?

Yes very much like that

[Motep]

Sneaky disguise. It is definitely good that they caught him at long last.

[KukriKhan]

Moderator Note: No further language characterizing the victims of any mass-murder anywhere as: deserved, good-riddance, etc

will be tolerated.
------------------------------------

Thank you for your attention. Kindly carry on.

[LittleGrizzly]

postiepost linkielink bookiebook ? what is this madness and whats its got to do with simpsons ? im not even that old and im confused!!

[HoreTore]

postiepost linkielink bookiebook ? what is this madness and whats its got to do with simpsons ? im not even that old and im confused!!

It's from the episode where bart joins the scouts and has to read a book to pass a test before he gets his scout-knife, and homer is teasing him with "smartiesmart is reading his bookiebook!".

[Fragony]

scuzi bumpage, for the omghowcouldyou-crowd;

http://www.hirhome.com/yugo/ihralija1.htm

[Tribesman]

Very nice frag , you only have to get as far as the 3rd paragraph before you realise that "historian" is definately talking bollox .
Well done .

[Fragony]

Very nice frag , you only have to get as far as the 3rd paragraph before you realise that "historian" is definately talking bollox .
Well done .

Sure, read something else huh, it's a dirty dirty game. Serbs have been mauled by the red machine, won't be going there for a quite some time. As I said earlier I know people that were there, it will make your ears bleed. We backed the wrong folks and the rest is show.

[HoreTore]

scuzi bumpage, for the omghowcouldyou-crowd;

http://www.hirhome.com/yugo/ihralija1.htm

So.... It's OK for Serb loonies to massacre innocent Bosnians because there are Bosnian loonies who want to massacre innocent Serbs?

[Tribesman]

As I said earlier I know people that were there,

As you said earlier you know someone who is clearly a scumbag who shares your hatred of people who are of a certain faith . Big deal .

[Sarmatian]

So.... It's OK for Serb loonies to massacre innocent Bosnians because there are Bosnian loonies who want to massacre innocent Serbs?

They didn't want to massacre, they massacred. Subtle, yet important distinction. I think the point is that good guys/bad guys routine can't be applied here. Overall strategy of all sides was ethnic cleansing, by intimidation and forced relocation. Murders and massacres were byproducts of that strategy rather than the main goal. But I don't want to venture off topic to much.

Today it was first appearance of Karadzic at the Hague. He didn't enter a plea, partly because he didn't study have the time to study the indictment properly and partly because the prosecution is already preparing a new, bigger one. I don't know what new information the prosecution have now that they didn't have in the last ten years, but it will be interesting to see.

Also, Karadzic spoke publicly about a deal with Richard Holbrooke under which he was supposed to leave politics and public life in general and not appear in the Hague. Public opinion in Serbia for years was that some kind of a deal with the US existed, mainly because there was no pressure from the tribunal to find him. Every couple of weeks there were statements or visits from the Hague to remind and put pressure that Mladic get's there, but there was no pressure for Karadzic. He was scarcely even mentioned.

This is gonna be interesting to watch. I hope that they continue with live broadcast.