Eburonum (???)

[V.T. Marvin]

While thinking about the present names of EB settlements, I have realized, that despite being Czech, i.e. living more-or-less in the territory of EB province Mrogbonna, I have no idea which of the numerous Celtic archeological sites its capital - Eburonum - represents. A brief survey on the Internet, however, pointed to somewhat disturbing direction: Eburonum is actually mentioned in the Caesar´s Commentarii not in the central Europe but on the Rhine.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

"Trans Rhenum ad Germanos pervenit fama diripi Eburones atque ultro omnes ad praedam evocari. [5] Cogunt equitum duo milia Sugambri, qui sunt proximi Rheno, a quibns receptos ex fuga Tencteros atque Usipetes supra docuimus. [6] Transeunt Rhenum navibus ratibusque XXX milibus passuum infra eum locum, ubi pons erat perfectus praesidiumque a Caesare relictum; primos Eburonum fines adeunt; multos ex fuga dispersos excipiunt, magno pecoris numero, cuius sunt cupidissimi barbari, potiuntur." (C. IULI CAESARIS, DE BELLO GALLICO, COMMENTARIUS SEXTUS, 35,4-6)

Also a geographical index apparentely based on Itinerary of Antonine and the Table of Peutinger places Eburones between Rhine and Meuse.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

"Eburones. - The greater part of their country was between the Rhine and the Meuse (v, 24, §4); so we may infer that the remaining part was west of the Meuse. Their neighbours on the south were the Treveri, the Segni, and the Condrusi (vi, 32, §1); on the north the Menapii (33, §§1 - 2), and on the south-west the Atuatuci (v, 38, §1). Their territory may also have been conterminous on the west with that of the Nervii. But it is impossible to define the frontiers of any of these people except perhaps the Nervii, and therefore it is impossible to define the frontier of the Eburones. We only know that it extended westward of Bonn and Cologne and included parts of the provinces of Limbourg and Liege (C.G., p.387)." http://www.hhhh.org/perseant/libellu.../holmesgi.html

Therefore I would like to ask some-one more knowledgable in "Materia Celtica" if he/she could clarify this apparent inconsistency between EB representation and these particular sources mentioned above.

Thank you in advance!

[Fondor_Yards]

Eburonum is the capital of the powerful central european Boii Kingdom, not the Eburones tribe. Thats why there are all those nasty silver chevron full stacks that spawn around there.

[Power2the1]

Yeah, it can get confusing sometimes with some of the names. The Eburones were of the Belgae and Ambiorix was one of their leaders, a staunch anti Roman. Wiped out a whole Roman legion and then some in ambush

[blitzkrieg80]

I have no idea for the source / inspiration, but I do know of Ptolemy and this snazzy visual aid based on his Geography which supports the current locale:

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...lemy/2/10.html

the spelling is Eburodunum on this site though, which might help any efforts for internet searches

[V.T. Marvin]

Thank you Blitzkrieg80, but still - that still does not solve the problem as the geography guide places Eburodunum into the Graian Alps (29°40´E, 44°30´N) way far from the central Europe (see here).

There should be some other source that matches Eburonum or Eburodunum with the Boii. Our high school history class never uses the ancient names for various Celtic (Boii) oppida in the present Czech Republic. We only learn the current names where the archeological sites are located (i.e. "Zavist").

My intent is - and really do not want to anyhow put in doubt what the EB Team has created - to politely ask what led the EB Team to choose the name of the Boii province ("Mrogbonna") and the name and location of its capital ("Eburonum") as they did for the sake of enlightement of the community.

Thank you again in advance.

[konny]

While thinking about the present names of EB settlements, I have realized, that despite being Czech, i.e. living more-or-less in the territory of EB province Mrogbonna, I have no idea which of the numerous Celtic archeological sites its capital - Eburonum - represents. A brief survey on the Internet, however, pointed to somewhat disturbing direction: Eburonum is actually mentioned in the Caesar´s Commentarii not in the central Europe but on the Rhine.

The capital of these Eburones is Atuatuca, which seems to have been close to the modern city of Aachen.

[V.T. Marvin]

O.K., but still - why the Boii province is called Mrogbonna and its capital Eburonum in EB?

I am sure that there is some evidence-based explanation for that, otherwise the EB Team would not do that in the first place...

BTW - the largest Celtic oppidum relevant to the EB time-frame in Bohemia is today´s Zavist, very close to Prague. Another La Tene one, built circa 120 BC is near present village Stradonice, again close to Prague, but further more to the west.

However, the EB map places "Eburonum" somewhere to the eastern Bohemia or Northern Moravia. That would point out to either "Stare Hradisko" near Prostejov or "Hradiste Ceske Lhotice" near Chrudim. Nonetheless both of them are apparentely smaller and less significant (at least much fewer archeological artifacts were found there) compared with the abovementioned Zavist or Stradonice. So far I have also been unable to find any reference to ancient names any of these oppida might bear.

In fact, EB timeframe is very much a pre-history as far as Bohemia is concerned and relevant written sources are very scarce indeed. That is why I have started this enquiry, in the hope that some of the Celtic experts i the Team or in the forum community might help me to clear this issue.

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In case that the Boii capital is just notional one - which would of course be perfectly O.K. - I would than suggest in the next version (like EB2) to either to move it somewhat to the west between Elbe and Moldau (basicaly where Prague is now) - to represent either of the large oppida (Zavist or Stradonice) and leave the (notional) name Eburonum as it stands or shift it more to the south (to today´s Brno) and rename it to Meliodunon, which is attested as a Celtic settlement by Klaudios Ptolemaios.

[Power2the1]

V.T., you might be onto something here. I did some checking but I could not find mention of where Eburonum is exactly located, but did find mention of other Boii sites like Boiodurum (modern Passau-Innstadt), Juvavum (modern Salzburg), Gabromagus ( modern Windischgarsten), as well as Vindobona (modern Vienna) in the extreme north of the province of Pannonia in EB.

Now my guess, which is just a guess, is Eburonum *might* be an archaeological oppida site. I say this because of it's location closer to the northeastern fringe of the Celtic areas which often means, in a nutshell:
a) Celtic settlements in the north/northeast did not exist under Celtic rule for centuries at a time like ones in the Alps and Gaul, or
b) Celts in the area arrived as a strong military aristocracy and who's language, culture, etc...thrived amongst themselves but not to those they ruled over (a good example is the Celtic kingdom of Tylis in Thrace, destroyed by native Thracians in 193 B.C.).

Ironically, on a somewhat related note, Blitz and I had a recent PM session about what Celtic tribes were located in those those northeast regions and it is pretty rough going finding substantial info.

Anyway, I hope this help a little. Anthony is the Celtic FC, but I know a thing or two about Celts so I'm filling in. Any questions just ask. Oh, and Mrogbonna means 'land of the Boii', with mrog meaning 'land of'

[V.T. Marvin]

Well, anything new in this regard? No Celtic expert around here who wants to shed more light on it?

[Power2the1]

I'll make sure to ask Anthony when he return from his hiatus .