Then again, maybe in the right cases, the death penalty should be allowed

[Don Corleone]

My argument against the death penalty really comes down to a question of morality and spirituality. Unlike a war or self defense in one's home, execution by its very nature is an unnecessary killing. The state already has the murderer (or rapist) in custody, so it's not necessary to kill them to immobilize them or prevent them from doing further harm. By executing them, you're killing somebody when you don't need to.

And then I watched an ABC News special report last night about this tragic story of poor Denise Lee. This poor woman was abducted from her own house in a home invasion, in front of her 10 month old and 2 year old sons. The suspected murderer, Michael King, drove her first to his own house, then to his cousin's house, where he asked for gasoline, a shovel and a flashlight. The victim, Denise Lee, bound hand and foot, escaped from King's Camaro and screamed "call the police, call the police". The cousin, Harold Muxlow, asked King, who told him not to worry about it. Muxlow didn't, and didn't call police. He did tell his daughter about the incident, and she called police. Muxlow later yelled at her for "making him look bad and embarrassing him".

The whole story is horrible on many levels. The victim was brutally raped, shot repeatedly and then buried in a shallow grave by the side of the road. The worst part is, a woman phoned 911 from a cell-phone when she was following King's Camaro and said she could see what appeared to be a woman or a child struggling in the backseat. But because the woman described the Camaro as blue, not green (the car is blue-green), did not forward the information along. Two hours later, Lee was raped again, dead and buried.

I have a hard time with this story. Forget King himself, I want to beat the cousin to death. I don't know why, when they brought King in for questioning... a ticking timebomb scenario if ever there was one, somebody didn't take some pruning shears to him and start taking his fingers off at each knuckle until he coughed up where the body was.

As it was, it took 2 days of intensive searching to find the grave and the victim.

I'm sorry, I know most of the Orgahs are thoroughly modern and disaffected by such stories, and it's cool to be blase', but I really truly want blood. And a lot of pain. Repeatedly. I know this isn't Christian, and in fact, it's pretty dangerous, spiritually speaking, but I don't really care. I think I've had it with the child molesters/rapists/murderers of the world, running around torturing, raping and killing innocent women and children. Maybe it's time somebody starts making them a little nervous and maybe think twice before they do these things. They clearly think they'll get a free ride, even if they get caught. And they're right.

Maybe this country needs its own Sombra Negra.

[Husar]

I see what you mean, sometimes I think like you, don't know what else to say.

[CrossLOPER]

Life in prison for rapists and child molesters is generally not a "free ride".

EDIT: Also, reading into your paragraph more... The police work seems to be pretty awful as well. I think that making the public more willing to report suspicious activity would help, even if it would save a handful of lives.

[Lord Winter]

Rotting in prision for the rest of their lives can be a worse punishment then just dying quickly. They should have to live there lives with the constant guilt of what they did and relize that by denying life to others there's is now useless. I struggle with the death penelty for multiable reasons who are we to take life away? What if by some long shot we got it wrong? Even if we only save one mistaken innocent men from being exucuted its worth all the other conivied murderes that we leave to rot. You can release some one from prision but you can't bring them back from the dead.

[Fragony]

Disgusting, put it down. If you have a problem with actually killing them just stop feeding them.How sick can you be, bah.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I hear you, Don. I know what you're saying, where you're coming from. Don't really know what to make of all this at times myself. I want blood too. Then again, humanitarian values, a civilised judicial system, and one's own morality, are not tested by small scale tax evading yet otherwise decent citizens, but by brutal acts of horror.

I don't know. Maybe we are the better people for not torturing these men to death in public in reatiliation. Maybe we are stupid for not doing so.
I don't have it in me to stand up for them, or for our judicial system in the face of such horrors, nor do I actively support more brutality in our system. In the end, I simply mentally retract myself. Some things are more than I can bear.

[English assassin]

They clearly think they'll get a free ride, even if they get caught.

IMHO this is where the argument breaks down. I just don't believe anyone thinks to himself, I'll abduct a woman from in front of her children, repeatedly rape her, then shoot her and bury her in a shallow grave, because if I'm caught I'll only get life in jail, but heck, if it was the death penalty, I'll just stay home. I really don't think this sort of behaviour is the result of some sort of cost benefit analysis.

Does King deserve to live? No. Should we kill him? Different question.

I'm sorry, I know most of the Orgahs are thoroughly modern and disaffected by such stories, and it's cool to be blase',

Straw man, DC.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Rotting in prision for the rest of their lives can be a worse punishment then just dying quickly. They should have to live there lives with the constant guilt of what they did and relize that by denying life to others there's is now useless. I struggle with the death penelty for multiable reasons who are we to take life away? What if by some long shot we got it wrong? Even if we only save one mistaken innocent men from being exucuted its worth all the other conivied murderes that we leave to rot. You can release some one from prision but you can't bring them back from the dead.

People, Don't you understand? You giving them a FREE RIDE! You are still paying to keep them in Jail. Yes, if you kill them, your loved one will never come back, BUT.....



1. The Person is still alive



2. The Person will Be Fed, Have a Place to stay, and so forth
3.They won't freeze in the WInter like Poor Homeless People will




Among Other Reasons, and that just for Murderers. I mean, I know some people can't understand why I'm for Death Penalty, but I can't understand why people aren't for it more often.

[Reverend Joe]

Put him in prison. Tatoo the words RAPIST/MURDERER on his uniform. And slip some of the burliest inmates some viagra and give them some alone time with him. I'm sure he will be begging for the chair.

Hell, even all that isn't necessary; just instruct the guards to "let slip" what he did, and the rest will work itself out.

@Warman and Don: I don't think you realize how much of a punishment prison is/can be. There's a reason that a lot of people are arguing that it is just a foul system and should be updated/replaced with rehabilitation. But frankly, people like this deserve that cesspool. They don't deserve the easy way out, especially as I have heard from firsthand accounts that death row inmates are among the easiest to get along with.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

I doubt rehabilitation will work, if I read correctly, most people that go into rehab commit crimes again anyhow, but I may be wrong.


Realize? I do realize it, HOWEVER, I think if you kill someone, (escally a child or defenless eldery or disabled person), then you should be put on Death Row. That the way it should be.

[Lord Winter]

What does killing someone do in the end? Does it bring back the dead? Or in the end even deter? There is no difference between the punishment of death which already happens anyway, and wasting away in a prision knowing that your life was a waste. Perhasp the second one is even the worst.

[Viking]

I do not believe in punishment for the sake of punishing. Until it is certain whether he is in the spirit of committing similiar crimes, he should stay in jail for society's security. What's done cannot be undone by punishing him; what should stay in focus is prevention of future crimes and not letting angry thoughts cloud one's vision.

Bottom note: in my eyes the right to live is undeniable.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

What does killing someone do in the end? Does it bring back the dead? Or in the end even deter? There is no difference between the punishment of death which already happens anyway, and wasting away in a prision knowing that your life was a waste. Perhasp the second one is even the worst.

But Life In prison deter? If I want to murder someone, do you think I would care for example. People, these guys know that murdering someone for example will get them Killed or Life In Jail, so do you think they care even if they did get life? They are Useless Human Beings, derserve to be killed. SInce they kill a fellow Human, In my opninon, they lost their right to live.

[Lord Winter]

If you're an irrational serial killer do you really think you care anyway?

The true question here seems to be do humans have the justifacation to declare that this man should die, but that man can live.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

If you're an irrational serial killer do you really think you care anyway?

Didn't I just say that?

The true question here seems to be do humans have the justifacation to declare that this man should die, but that man can live.

Good Point, But Yes We Do. Who do you think should then? Grumpy Bear, My Care Bear?

[Lord Winter]

Didn't I just say that?

Then why do you think its an effective deterent if they don't care?

Good Point, But Yes We Do. Who do you think should then? Grumpy Bear, My Care Bear?

Christains say God, others say maybe none.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Then why do you think its an effective deterent if they don't care?



Christains say God, others say maybe none.

1. Effective For the People Who Think about it, Some Don't care becayse they think they can get away with it, then they get caught and say "I'm a good person, please let me have Life in Jail........".


2. Well, God Isn't talking about it, so God will understand, trust me. And the non Believers, if they say none, then.......?

[Hax]

This is horrible indeed. I prefer a long time in prison to the death penalty, and in this case I am still entitled to my opinion. Put the cousin and King together in a nice two-person cell, in which they can together reflect on the awesome deeds they've done.

[LittleGrizzly]

I don't think the death penalty is really a deterrent, to be honest given the choice i would rather have the death penalty then spend all the rest of my years in prison, quick and painless rather than a horrible long dragged out process.... and this is why i have been rethinking my position on the death penalty, it almost seems more humane to me to kill someone than keep them locked up until the end of thier days.

But then the idea of having someone trapped under our power and then finishing thier life just seems sick to me, not as sick as the original crime but not far from it, as im sure you've all heard many timeres two wrongs do not make a right...

I don't think the death penalty really works as a deterrent, im pretty sure most murderers don't care or think they won't get caught, and crimes of passion usually don't allow enough time to weigh up consequences...

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

I don't think the death penalty works as a deterrent. Frankly, I don't care. Some people deserve death. I remain against the death penalty in most situations, but if the crime was brutal and the evidence conclusive beyond a shadow of a doubt, I'm for it. For in theory, against in general practice.

[Crazed Rabbit]

It is morally weak, in my opinion, to accept horrible deeds done by others that we would not do ourselves. It's a way of passing the buck.

And I daresay some exaggerate the conditions in prisons. For child molesters it's one thing what is done to them, but I don't think rapists and murderers get the same treatment - who's going to beat up on them? The armed robbers?

The cousin should be killed. Depraved indifference to human life.

We should be sure to catch all murderers quickly, and send them quickly to Hell. I daresay not giving them 20 years of appeals would highlight the deterrent effect.

CR
PS- Yes, I am aware of false convictions. But as is generally the case when I generalize, I don't care.

[LittleGrizzly]

For child molesters it's one thing what is done to them, but I don't think rapists and murderers get the same treatment - who's going to beat up on them? The armed robbers?

I heard an interview with a prisnor once, he was saying how those who harm women or children are basically seen as the scum of the prison population, so most of the rapists and some of the murderers would be covered

Aside from that i thought they usually kept child molesters apart for thier own safety ?

[KukriKhan]

I am a hypocrite.

Offered a chance to vote on whether I want the State to kill bad guys on my behalf: I'll vote NO. Our law enforcement and judicial system get it wrong too often, despite their best, and honorable, intentions. And no matter how I shake it, I can't see society's/government's overwhelming interest in killing a fellow human, however heinous his crime.

Yet...

If it were personal; if some nut hurt and killed my wife, kids, brothers... despite the consequences, and having met my own dark-side a few times, I'm certain of this; at the first opportunity, I would try to exact revenge.

[LittleGrizzly]

I don't know if i would call that hypocritical KK, its basically my view on the subject, i don't believe in the death penalty but i can be a pretty vengeful person if its personal, but the difference i see is that state is not there to act out our personal vengance, but to punish the person for a crime against the state and to punish them accordingly, jusitice is not carried out by those personally involved... thats called revenge...

[Husar]

Well, you could also ask why is a life worth keeping? What is so bad about killing? Animals kill other animals constantly for food, noone would say that's a bad thing, in war we kill others, in self defense it's even seen as okay but when a murderer or rapist is caught his life suddenly gets some value that has to be kept by locking him up until he dies of something else which basically means ending his life until it really ends because in prison he doesn't have a lot to live for anyway, unless we're talking about Norway which has luxury prisons that everyone leaves as a productive member of society in which case it actually makes sense to lock people up instead of shooting them at the scene which is much cheaper.

When people talk about love, they often come up with how we are still animals and hardwired to do this or that, well yeah, let's apply my animalistic, selfish instincts here as well and say if he isn't doing any good to me let's get rid of him, plain and simple, we're just wired that way.
Despite that, even a murderer is just a hull of protein and water with biochemical reactions inside but I said that before.

[Kralizec]

People like this guy truly do not deserve to live. But it's not expedient to kill them. While I generally trust the judiciary here they're miles away from being perfect. Even if you give someone a dozen possibilities of appeal (and denying someone an appeal against a death sentence would be horrid) there's still the chance of a wrongful conviction. I'd rather have 9 murderers having a good time rotting in jail till they drop than have one person wrongfully executed.

[Lord Winter]

Well, you could also ask why is a life worth keeping? What is so bad about killing? Animals kill other animals constantly for food, noone would say that's a bad thing, in war we kill others, in self defense it's even seen as okay but when a murderer or rapist is caught his life suddenly gets some value that has to be kept by locking him up until he dies of something else which basically means ending his life until it really ends because in prison he doesn't have a lot to live for anyway, unless we're talking about Norway which has luxury prisons that everyone leaves as a productive member of society in which case it actually makes sense to lock people up instead of shooting them at the scene which is much cheaper.

When people talk about love, they often come up with how we are still animals and hardwired to do this or that, well yeah, let's apply my animalistic, selfish instincts here as well and say if he isn't doing any good to me let's get rid of him, plain and simple, we're just wired that way.
Despite that, even a murderer is just a hull of protein and water with biochemical reactions inside but I said that before.

I may be missing your point but are you saying that life has no value? Then why in that logic isn't the murderer justified if all he killed is a hull of protein and water with biocehem reactions? I think the thing about opposition to the death penalty is believing that no one has the right to take away life in a cold planned matter. Not even the government.

2. Well, God Isn't talking about it, so God will understand, trust me. And the non Believers, if they say none, then.......?

Divine will isn't that simple.

[Husar]

I may be missing your point but are you saying that life has no value? Then why in that logic isn't the murderer justified if all he killed is a hull of protein and water with biocehem reactions?

I mentioned selfishness didn't I? I happen to like that other bunch of protein more than the killer so I decided that he should die, if you disagree we will see who the stronger is, man that even fits nature again, the stronger survive...
I like Fenring's argument that we cannot always be sure unless someone, preferably many, identified the killer 100%.
Oh and my point was that I cannot see where, as an atheist(who sees humans as the kind of soulless biochemical robots), one draws the value of life from but that's a different topic and I'm sorry for almost deriving this one.

I think the thing about opposition to the death penalty is believing that no one has the right to take away life in a cold planned matter. Not even the government.

How about taking life in a lovingly quickly-decided manner? Does the value of life fade away then or is the murderer just a pervert in that case?
Reminds me of this book where the father kills his daughter because he loves her so much and wants to protect her from the power of that prince who wants to use her for himself. Is that okay? Is it romantic or trgaic? Consider that she agreed with it. Did her life have no value or should the father be punished for it?

[Viking]

Well, you could also ask why is a life worth keeping? What is so bad about killing? Animals kill other animals constantly for food, noone would say that's a bad thing, in war we kill others, in self defense it's even seen as okay but when a murderer or rapist is caught his life suddenly gets some value that has to be kept by locking him up until he dies of something else which basically means ending his life until it really ends because in prison he doesn't have a lot to live for anyway, unless we're talking about Norway which has luxury prisons that everyone leaves as a productive member of society in which case it actually makes sense to lock people up instead of shooting them at the scene which is much cheaper.

When people talk about love, they often come up with how we are still animals and hardwired to do this or that, well yeah, let's apply my animalistic, selfish instincts here as well and say if he isn't doing any good to me let's get rid of him, plain and simple, we're just wired that way.
Despite that, even a murderer is just a hull of protein and water with biochemical reactions inside but I said that before.

There are all kinds of people that "aren't doing any good to me", perhaps I should slay them all, its how I'm 'wired', isn't it?

As for the rest of the post; it's straw men galore.

I mentioned selfishness didn't I? I happen to like that other bunch of protein more than the killer so I decided that he should die, if you disagree we will see who the stronger is, man that even fits nature again, the stronger survive...

So you're much of an anarchist, then? Not interested in law and order in other words.

[Husar]

As for the rest of the post; it's straw men galore.

Well, I like cereals.

So you're much of an anarchist, then? Not interested in law and order in other words.

No, when law and order say that for raping you have to get killed, then so be it. What I actually wanted was areason for it not to say that and Fenring was the only one who gave a good one, human error.