i dont understand...

[a completely inoffensive name]

Part of an early version of the lorica segmentata was discovered in the excavation at Kalkriese. Students of Roman history will quickly recognize where I am going--Kalkriese is likely the site of Varus' military disaster. This disaster is of course the battle of Teutoburg Forest, which took place in AD 9. It is thus very probable that the this type of armor was in use under the reign of Augustus--whose reforms I suspect made this armor a viable option for those legionaries willing to suffer its many nuisances. However, for all we know the lorica segmentata may have been known of even during Caesar's campaigns in Gaul, if very primitive and completely impractical.

Including an entire cohort of legionaries equipped with such armor thus strikes me as being of dubious historicity. However including a texture of a single such legionary within an entire cohort following Augustus' reforms is not necessarily ahistorical, and is plausible in M2TW thanks to some new features not present in RTW. Trying to suck up by labeling everyone interested in the latter course as "fanboys" not only is lame, it displays your lack of knowledge of what you are insulting others about. I suggest you at least do your research, Mike Hunt, before making posts like those above.

That said, not reading the FAQ is simply stupid and never excusable--even for someone who has had four beers.

I have read what you have typed in your first paragraph from other LS threads (which I have throughly read) and I think I am a bit knowledgeable about the subject (although obviously not as much as 99.9% of the people but I do know from what I have read in the threads). And I feel as if you made this post not out out of sharing knowledge but because you were insulted by my choice of the word "fanboy". While that was rude (to which I apologize), honestly I don't see how its any less rude to see the question appear multiple times with the side in favor of LS presenting the same evidence/argument again and again (for example: your first paragraph) and although being turned down each time continue to bring it up again when the question reappears. And I am one who wishes LS was in the game (alot!) and I have checked eagerly to see if someone actually made a mod to include the unit but so far nothing. I have become somewhat annoyed and dissappointed with LS fans now because of this and I think that while I recognize that you may know much more about the topic then I ever will, you really must be full of yourself to think that my above post was meant to be explicitly insulting to you and all LS fans when really it was just bad humor on my part. Once again I apologize for the "fanboy" comment and I will refrain from such attitude in the future, but it really seemed at the end of your post to be a bit harsh and jerk-ish.

Also I don't understand about the "trying to suck up part". Who am I sucking up to? The EB team? Would they let me be one of the first to try the EB2 beta if I sucked up to them or something?

[Tellos Athenaios]

Anyway one of the reasons why I think we haven't had too many past 1.1 LS threads yet is that there *is a minimod for them*.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Anyway one of the reasons why I think we haven't had too many past 1.1 LS threads yet is that there *is a minimod for them*.

Really!?!?! Holy crap, where is it!

[Tellos Athenaios]

Mini mods subforum.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Mini mods subforum.

Well obviously, I mean where else would you look for EB mods lol. I meant what topic is it under, but after giving it another look I am assuming you are talking about mucky305 Late Roman Empire mod?

[Tellos Athenaios]

That could be the one, IIRC Mucky made an LS reskin of the Augustan legionary?

[Hooahguy]

Really!?!?! Holy crap, where is it!

its called "rome total war"

[TWFanatic]

I have read what you have typed in your first paragraph from other LS threads (which I have throughly read) and I think I am a bit knowledgeable about the subject (although obviously not as much as 99.9% of the people but I do know from what I have read in the threads). And I feel as if you made this post not out out of sharing knowledge but because you were insulted by my choice of the word "fanboy". While that was rude (to which I apologize), honestly I don't see how its any less rude to see the question appear multiple times with the side in favor of LS presenting the same evidence/argument again and again (for example: your first paragraph) and although being turned down each time continue to bring it up again when the question reappears. And I am one who wishes LS was in the game (alot!) and I have checked eagerly to see if someone actually made a mod to include the unit but so far nothing. I have become somewhat annoyed and dissappointed with LS fans now because of this and I think that while I recognize that you may know much more about the topic then I ever will, you really must be full of yourself to think that my above post was meant to be explicitly insulting to you and all LS fans when really it was just bad humor on my part. Once again I apologize for the "fanboy" comment and I will refrain from such attitude in the future, but it really seemed at the end of your post to be a bit harsh and jerk-ish.

Also I don't understand about the "trying to suck up part". Who am I sucking up to? The EB team? Would they let me be one of the first to try the EB2 beta if I sucked up to them or something?

Understood. My point was that there is a difference between having one LS texture within an entire cohort wearing the LH, and having an entire unit equipped solely with the former cuirass. One is not inaccurate and the other is.

The reasoning for not including a LS legionary is actually pretty simple. EB is about historical accuracy. Popular history doesn't count for anything, and nor do fan requests. The majority of Augustean legionaries wore chain mail, not LS, and nor was LS that common when it did become popular, so the standard Augustean legionary should wear chainmail.

Off course, another legionary could be added wearing LS, but there would be no functional differences between both units. The Romans are already overrepresented when it comes to units (engine constraints, alas, do count, as does the need to do all factions justice) and other factions don't get multiple versions of the same unit. I also don't recall any request for squamata-wearing legionaries, either.

Everything you said is true...when spoken in regards to RTW. Not so when spoken in regards to M2:TW, for the reason expressed above. Doing what I suggested for M2:TW certainly does not require sacrificing historicity, in fact it could be argued that it enhances the game's accuracy by representing the introduction of a new form of armor. If it does not take another DMB spot, than it is certainly not over representing anyone to add another texture to a preexisting unit. I'm sure that every nook and cranny will be filled, just as it was with the RTW engine.

Regarding the lorica squamata: I plan on getting an expansion soon, and the first thing I will do is add (the other) LS-equipped legionaries as AOR units for the Romani in the eastern provinces.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Not so when spoken in regards to M2:TW, for the reason expressed above. Doing what I suggested for M2:TW certainly does not require sacrificing historicity, in fact it could be argued that it enhances the game's accuracy by representing the introduction of a new form of armor.

Actually, that's not quite a simple as it may sound. From what is known, LS does not appear to be the average legionary's kit in Augustan times; even in it's 'heyday' it wasn't all that widely adopted. Now, assume a perfectly reasonable number of 5% [it being right on a common border line of what is statistically signifcant and what is not] as upper bound for the ratio "LS-ones to total # of legionaries"; to represent not more than 5% of the legionaries wearing LS (thus insignifcant to the total amount of legionaries, but still noticeable). In a perfectly random unit you then need at least '20 skins', of which only 1 features LS! Plainly, this is an extraordinary amount of work for something applicable to only 1 unit of only one faction, present for what is a mere appendix when compared against the greater time line of EB.

In short; face it: anyone can do the math and the outcome will be that to add LS even with the abilities of the M2TW engine will be asking a lot, and will certainly be all the way down the list.

EDIT: Apart from the question: is it actually possible. Because AFAIK it's not.

[Ludens]

Everything you said is true...when spoken in regards to RTW. Not so when spoken in regards to M2:TW, for the reason expressed above. Doing what I suggested for M2:TW certainly does not require sacrificing historicity, in fact it could be argued that it enhances the game's accuracy by representing the introduction of a new form of armor. If it does not take another DMB spot, than it is certainly not over representing anyone to add another texture to a preexisting unit.

That would make 1 in 4 legionaries wear LS, a rather high percentage since only one suit has been recovered from the Augustean era (accepting, for the sake of the argument, that it was indeed from the battle of Teutoburger forest). Also, it's not sure that it would have been worn by a legionary. IIRC LS has been found more often in contexts associated with Roman auxillaries rather than true legions.

If you ask me, that's still stretching it for the sake of including a LS.

[TWFanatic]

Thus we see that it is do to game engine limitations (not accuracy) in this case, as in so many others, that this feature cannot be included.

EDIT:

Also, it's not sure that it would have been worn by a legionary. IIRC LS has been found more often in contexts associated with Roman auxillaries rather than true legions.

Where is this from? I have never heard this before.

[Ludens]

Where is this from? I have never heard this before.

Er... I picked it up on the forum somewhere, but I can't for the life of me remember where.

[a completely inoffensive name]

That would make 1 in 4 legionaries wear LS, a rather high percentage since only one suit has been recovered from the Augustean era (accepting, for the sake of the argument, that it was indeed from the battle of Teutoburger forest). Also, it's not sure that it would have been worn by a legionary. IIRC LS has been found more often in contexts associated with Roman auxillaries rather than true legions.

If you ask me, that's still stretching it for the sake of including a LS.

Is there any evidence that Germanic warriors took some of the Romans armour and weapons as prizes? Because in my opinion, if I was a warrior and just slaughtered a Roman legion I would have gone for the LS because it was very new and shiny and never seen before and really does look intimidating then chain mail which i suspect was a major reason for its rising popularity.

[satalexton]

yay, by a strange twist of fate, we got ourselves another LS thread.

I dun get it, who would want to fight in something that scrapes the skin off your neck before the fight even begins? Masochistic Legionaires?

[Rilder]

yay, by a strange twist of fate, we got ourselves another LS thread.

I dun get it, who would want to fight in something that scrapes the skin off your neck before the fight even begins? Masochistic Legionaires?

Maybe the Emo Legion?

[Havok.]

Maybe the Emo Legion?

I'm yet to understand what you guys have against emos

[Tellos Athenaios]

Is there any evidence that Germanic warriors took some of the Romans armour and weapons as prizes? Because in my opinion, if I was a warrior and just slaughtered a Roman legion I would have gone for the LS because it was very new and shiny and never seen before and really does look intimidating then chain mail which i suspect was a major reason for its rising popularity.

For starters the local Germans would've been quite into Roman military stuff; as they were widely sought after in the Roman military... Nothing new & shiny about what (subject to much? debate) can be considered an inferior type of armour -- especially in the German homelands...

[a completely inoffensive name]

For starters the local Germans would've been quite into Roman military stuff; as they were widely sought after in the Roman military... Nothing new & shiny about what (subject to much? debate) can be considered an inferior type of armour -- especially in the German homelands...

Well since LS was just starting to become "popular" (which I know can be debated about) around that time I would have thought that this would have been one of the first times the Germans came into combat with Roman soldiers wearing LS and thus would have been "new" to them.

[spqr_arcani]

I personally don't understand the mentality of people wanting LS in the game.

I myself didn't care.
I came here looking for a stable mod and to learn history.

What's in the mind of people who keep asking why there's no LS in the game?
Did they watch too much of a show or movie,
which set their expectations for EB?

Very curious.

[TWFanatic]

For starters the local Germans would've been quite into Roman military stuff; as they were widely sought after in the Roman military... Nothing new & shiny about what (subject to much? debate) can be considered an inferior type of amour -- especially in the German homelands...

My understanding is that the lorica segmentata was a very complex in its design, with numerous plates linked by copper-alloy buckles, hinges, and hooks and a leather harness underneath. It is understandable that all of these little pieces, which appear to have commonly broken and fallen off, would present maintenance problems. These little pieces are common finds on Roman military sites. I also recall hearing somewhere (any resident chemists to affirm/refute this?) that chemical reactions between the bronze fittings and iron plates fostered corrosion. It also took much more technological skill to produce a plate cuirass than one made of mail.

That said, most modern tests I’ve seen seem to have confirmed the efficiency of segmented armor. It’s plates (unlike those of later medieval plate armor) were not hardened by forging which allowed the softer metal to absorb a blow, spreading its force. Mail can be pierced by pointed weapons and projectiles and shattered by blunt ones, but segmented cuirasses are far harder to pierce and much better suited to evenly distributing the shock of blows (I use the present tense because I am referring to present-day tests, which very well might be using higher quality iron than was available in Antiquity). The lorica segmentata also appears to be the preferred choice of cuirass amongst rein actors from what I have seen. Perhaps someone who knows more about these events can clarify why.

[satalexton]

perhaps they were simply a form of dress armour to make their men feel miserable when parading and marching?
I'm in a marching-band myself and those damn boots and buckles do more hinder than help when playing the trombone... not to mention the heat in summer.
..plus side tho, it makes us look 'military' and cool in the photos =P

[Tellos Athenaios]

That said, most modern tests I’ve seen seem to have confirmed the efficiency of segmented armor. It’s plates (unlike those of later medieval plate armor) were not hardened by forging which allowed the softer metal to absorb a blow, spreading its force. Mail can be pierced by pointed weapons and projectiles and shattered by blunt ones, but segmented cuirasses are far harder to pierce and much better suited to evenly distributing the shock of blows (I use the present tense because I am referring to present-day tests, which very well might be using higher quality iron than was available in Antiquity). The lorica segmentata also appears to be the preferred choice of cuirass amongst rein actors from what I have seen. Perhaps someone who knows more about these events can clarify why.

About piercing weapons; one would always wear some additional layer of clothing/armour underneath the chain mail, or the LS if only for simple reasons of comfort. I guess it hurts: 10000+ metal rings scraping off your skin; or getting your skin stuck between the two of the segements in LS...

As for Re-enactors choosing to stick with LS instead of other forms well; that can be explained by a number of reasons:

1) LS doesn't weigh as much as chain mail;
2) LS can be recreated/faked quite easily; chain mail can't (remember: 10000+ rings...).
3) LS is cheaper (see #2); valid even way back when
4) For some strange reason (a-historical Romans) the public associates the combination "Romans + history" with LS. It's not accurate, given the Romans never took to it the way the Greeks took to the Lineothorax for instance; but yeah ... Also; not like re-enactors give an accurate representation of the armies back then if you interpret the amount of re-enactors posing as soldier type X as how many of them were actually around; I mean: ever seen as many re-enactors choosing to pose as Pantodapoi-type soldiers?