OOC Thread and Chatroom 2

[Ituralde]

Yes. If your avatar is moving with someone else's stack and that person is going to fight a battle, make sure you trust them not to get you killed. In KotR, someone actually became Kaiser (Emperor) because the previous Emperor died during a battle the new Emperor controlled.

I had nothing to do with that...

[Zim]

My understanding is that the rebellion has ended with the treaty agreed upon between TheFlax and Ignoramus. Given that I was in on much of the negotiations involved in that treaty I felt fairly confident about what it entailed.

I would prefer if before accusing me of cheating people would actually pm me and ask me why I did something first.

[TinCow]

There has been some confusion about the rules, which is perfectly understandable given their complexity, and the newness of the rebellion mechanics. A few things need be cleared up.

First, Rebels and Seccessionist cannot make peace treaties. This means that they will officially remain at war until they become Independent Ruler after 10 turns. The only way for people to get out of this war is to declare neutrality within the normal 1 turn period after it begins. Anyone who does not do this will remain at war until the ability to sign a peace treaty is restored when the rank of Independent Ruler is obtained. People are free to make IC agreements that they will not fight each other and even to support the rebellion, but this does not impact the war in any way. If you want to roleplay a peace treaty before the 10 turns have elapsed, simply refrain from hostilities against one another. The only other way for a rebel to get out of a war is to lose his Capital. If that happens, the rebellion collapses and is over, and a peace treaty can be signed. However, this also removes all benefits of the rebellion and re-incorporates all provinces into the Empire once again.

Second, there is no way to speed up the process of becoming a Secessionist or an Independent Ruler. Despite any political/diplomatic moves that may occur, a civil war is a messy thing. Even if armies are not fighting each other, the populous itself is in immense upheavel due to the fracture of the country and the shift in government. As such, there is nothing that can prevent taxes from being set to Very High in all rebel provinces for the first 5 turns. Similarly, there is nothing that can prevent taxes in neighboring loyalist settlements from bumping to High after 5 turns and Very High after 10 turns. Even if the rebellion is successful and a peace treaty is signed, the Empire itself will suffer a great deal in any area that borders the rebellion. Those settlements will be very hard to govern and keep order in. On an IC basis, this is because the social strife of having a nearby area split off from government rule gives confidence to local agitators who want to joint them. For these reasons, successful rebellions are very, very bad for the Empire. They can be tolerated, but it comes at a massive cost. A few simple words of agreement between the Basileus and the rebels don't solve all the problems.

In the current situation, the taxes in Nicea and Constantinople must be restored to Very High. A reply of the turn is not required, because those cities were adequately garrisoned anyway and would not have rebelled. As the rebellions both started in 1190 AD (correct me if I am wrong about this) the first 5 turns will expire in 1197 AD. At that time, the taxes in all rebel settlements can be set according to the wishes of their owners. At the same time, all loyalist settlements MUST have their taxes raised to High.

[Zim]

"first 5 turns will expire in 1197 AD"

It's already 1197, with the new turn being 1198 or 1199. Does that mean they're up to the secession level?

[mini]

offtopic, but

Ituralde: WoT = best damn thing i've ever read, can't wait for 12 MoL :)

second, my first act is a defeat.. *hides in shame*

[TheFlax]

It happens, my LotR career is mostly a string of failures.

second, my first act is a defeat.. *hides in shame*

[TinCow]

"first 5 turns will expire in 1197 AD"

It's already 1197, with the new turn being 1198 or 1199. Does that mean they're up to the secession level?

Yikes, the game is moving faster than I thought. If it's 1197, then all rebels have become Secessionists. They can thus control their own taxes once again and all adjacent loyalist cities MUST be bumped up to High taxes.

[miniwally]

offtopic, but

Ituralde: WoT = best damn thing i've ever read, can't wait for 12 MoL :)

second, my first act is a defeat.. *hides in shame*

at least the defeat wasn't to bad only average and now u got experience :D unlike me :(

[mini]

meh

I really routed 80% of their army about 3 times but they always rallied. Had no cav to harass them. One cav unit and that battle was won.

My char did het +2 HP and +2 morale for troops for being brave

[TinCow]

second, my first act is a defeat.. *hides in shame*

Perhaps, but your battle report has some of the best looking screenshots I've ever seen. Whatever you did to them looks phenomenally good.

[mini]

Nothing fancy

irfanview <3 :) too bad i didnt had the time to write a decent story about it.

[KnightnDay]

Yikes, the game is moving faster than I thought. If it's 1197, then all rebels have become Secessionists. They can thus control their own taxes once again and all adjacent loyalist cities MUST be bumped up to High taxes.

I declared neutrality in the affair. Does that still mean that Thessalonike has to bump up it's taxes since it is adjacent to Constantinople?

[Cecil XIX]

In the current situation, the taxes in Nicea and Constantinople must be restored to Very High. A reply of the turn is not required, because those cities were adequately garrisoned anyway and would not have rebelled. As the rebellions both started in 1190 AD (correct me if I am wrong about this) the first 5 turns will expire in 1197 AD.

I'm pretty sure the rebellions started in 1192. Igno's declaration was posted at 20:47, 2/18 and woad&fangs' was at 19:37 on the same day. (My time) Zim's next report was posted at 01:45 on the 19th, for the 1192/93 turn. Zim's report for that turn specifically states 1192 is the year both rebellions began. I believe this means that Igno's cities must have 'Very High' Taxes for one more turn. (1192, 1194, 1195, 1197, and 1198)

Also, although this might have been averted, Niceae was going to start revolting this turn, possibly damaging a happiness-improving building and making it impossible for Igno to stop it without also starting revolt in Constantinople. It could have been avoided, but since Igno didn't take the save himself he would have needed to send instructions to Zim to act on his behalf. Is this the case?

second, my first act is a defeat.. *hides in shame*

Don't feel too. Why, I failed in almost every major objective I set for myself in KotR.

Perhaps, but your battle report has some of the best looking screenshots I've ever seen. Whatever you did to them looks phenomenally good.

Seconded. It's a rare treat to see someone put work into their screenshots beyond taking and uploading them.

[mini]

glad you all like it as much as i like this game :)

[TinCow]

I'm pretty sure the rebellions started in 1192. Igno's declaration was posted at 20:47, 2/18 and woad&fangs' was at 19:37 on the same day. (My time) Zim's next report was posted at 01:45 on the 19th, for the 1192/93 turn. Zim's report for that turn specifically states 1192 is the year both rebellions began. I believe this means that Igno's cities must have 'Very High' Taxes for one more turn. (1192, 1194, 1195, 1197, and 1198)

You've convinced me. The rebels will stay at that rank until 1198, and thus tax rates will stay at Very High until 1198 as well.

Also, although this might have been averted, Niceae was going to start revolting this turn, possibly damaging a happiness-improving building and making it impossible for Igno to stop it without also starting revolt in Constantinople. It could have been avoided, but since Igno didn't take the save himself he would have needed to send instructions to Zim to act on his behalf. Is this the case?

This is annoying. However a good battle has already been fought and it would be unfair to force it to be fought again. To compensate, Niceae will remain at Very High taxes for one additional turn. As with before, if I am making any factual errors that might impact the outcome of this decision, please let me know.

I declared neutrality in the affair. Does that still mean that Thessalonike has to bump up it's taxes since it is adjacent to Constantinople?

Yep. Successful rebellions are bad for everyone but the rebels.

[TheFlax]

On the subject of Niceae, when can Ignoramus actually give me the city rulewise? Since he's handing it to me as per the IC treaty we signed.

[TinCow]

Settlements can be trasferred any time from anyone and to anyone.

[Zim]

Does the save need to be frozen pending the pvp battle? I can't remember if it occurs at the end of the turn or not...

[Ignoramus]

So how can TheFlax and I carry out our treaty? Because it's important to both of us to get it implemented as soon as possible.

[Zim]

I think some of it can be implemented immediately, like moving the capital.

I guess if you want to officially end the rebellion it's a matter of waiting out the turns until Ioannis Komnenos reaches independent ruler status.

The rest would require some rule changes, if we can get the votes.

[woad&fangs]

btw, my preference for the PvP battle is to have a tabletop or abreviated tabletop battle.

[Ituralde]

So how can TheFlax and I carry out our treaty? Because it's important to both of us to get it implemented as soon as possible.

The way I see it in the rules the only way to achieve lasting changes is through an ordinary Civil War and then an ordinary peace treaty as to the Civil Wars rule section. Since the content of your peace treaty is not limited to the exchange of provinces you will have to ratify it in the Magnaura with a two third majority.

In essence it would be a Rule Change. The easiest way to do it would be to add the rank of Western Roman Emperor for Ioannis Komnenos III. I would talk this through with TinCow though either way.

Cheers!

Ituralde

[TinCow]

So how can TheFlax and I carry out our treaty? Because it's important to both of us to get it implemented as soon as possible.

1) Surrender your Capital to him, which will let you lose your Rebel rank and thus sign a peace treaty.
2) Wait until you are an Independent Ruler and then sign a peace treaty.

The above is only required to officially stop the war. As has been noted, you can start obeying the spirit of the peace treaty immediately. You're free to give Niceae to him, and he can move the Capital there. Then just refrain from fighting until you can make peace. Keep in mind that if you do this, Niceae will have to deal with mandatory High taxes when you are a rebel and Very High taxes when you are an Independent Ruler.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Gah, if Zim would've ended the save yesterday I would've moved myself away from this battle. Unfortunately I can't do that anymore! Anyway, I want to let everyone know that Theo will not surrender and would rather die.

Battle near Edessa:

Andronikos starts the battle with a charge:

And then Theo and Andronikos fight:

Finally, Theo decides to end the battle:

Andronikos' response:

And finally Andronikos surrenders:

[mini]

Ibn

I was on my way to you, standing on that bridge close to you.
You should have picked me up when you went back to Theopolis ;)

[Ibn-Khaldun]

I never got the chance to go back to Theopolis since woad&fangs managed to get the save before me.

Question: Theo is besieging currently Edessa. This means that he is between Andronikos' and Turkish forces. Will that play any part in this upcoming battle? Currently, IC, looks like Andronikos' forces have surprised Theo's men and they will fight the battle near the walls of Edessa.

[TinCow]

I'll leave the geography of the battlefield up to the umpire (GH, if it is tabletop). The Turks will not play any part in the battle. They'll be happy to sit back and watch their enemies kill each other.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Argh, IE went down on me just as I was about to post the initial stuff for the battle. Now I have to retype it from scratch. Look for it soon.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

So, it's close. The demise of Andronikos!

[GeneralHankerchief]

That's up to you.