OOC Thread and Chatroom 2

**_Tristan_** · 01-26-2009, 21:15

Having checked this through the proper channels, I wanted to bring to your attention the following Rule Change.

This is a first draft and will be subject to your comments...

So fire away...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As an Empire grows, retaining control grows ever more difficult. Resort to local governors becomes a prerequisite but this comes at a cost. Cut-off from central power, these men soon begin to look higher than their station. While some are daunted by the risks of rebelling against the central power of the Basileus, others are spurred by the challenge and look only to free themselves from the oppressive yoke of the Empire. This leads to …

SECESSION:

An avatar that fulfills the following requirements will be able to secede from the Empire and create its own kingdom.
(For the purpose of this rule, he will be called the secessionist avatar.)

1.1 Requirements: (red brackets are creator’s notes)

1.1.1/Must have personal ownership of three contiguous provinces, one of which must be a castle province or be turned into one as soon as possible.(The point being to create a sense of unity and provide elite military for the defense of the kingdom. Islands may be considered contiguous to the nearest landmass Rhodes-Smyrna, Heraklion-Corinth, Cyprus-Antioche).
Should the secessionist avatar be owner of a non-contiguous province at the moment of declaration, he will lose ownership and the province will pass to his liege (or to the Basileus if no liege lord exists).
Non-contiguous provinces conquered after the secession will be deemed added to the kingdom, though tenuously.
1.1.2/Must have had access to at least 5000 florins through conquest (occupy, sack or exterminate) personally or by way of a vassal in the turn of the declaration. (This is to enable the starting of an independent economy from the Empire.)

1.2 Secession and Civil War:

A declaration of secession is considered as a declaration of civil war with the secessionist avatar as the declarer and all loyalist avatars as the targets.
Due to the turmoil created by such a political upheaval, a full turn of non-aggression on both sides will take effect, thus making an exception to Rule # 5.1.
During this turn, any loyalist avatar can declare neutrality in the secession war.

1.3 Lords and Vassals:

A declaration of secession automatically breaks any Oath of Fealty the declarer had to a higher Lord.
It does not break the oaths of his lower vassals, though they may choose to break their oaths at this point. This Breach of Oath of Fealty will not be considered as a declaration of war as per Rule #5.2.

All vassals choosing to keep their Oath of Fealty to the secessionist avatar will be considered part of the secession and part of the Civil War.

1.4 Treasury:

1.4.1/The secessionist faction will start with the sum derived from point #2 above (ie 5000 or more florins) which will serve as his starting treasury. Being an independent kingdom until brought back into the fold, all expenses will be paid from said treasury.
1.4.2/A separate thread will be created by Tincow for the duration of the secession which will be used to list the turn by turn revenue/expenses of the secessionist kingdom. (This to provide an easily accessible balance sheet for use by the Megas).
In this thread, the secessionist player will write a balance sheet for his kingdom each turn whose amount will be subtracted from the Empire treasury.

Example of balance sheet (to be added)

The principle being that every expenses on the Secession balance sheet should be added in the income of the Empire and any incomes from the secession should be substracted from the same column.

1.5 Bankruptcy:

If the secessionist kingdom treasury goes in the red, a state of bankruptcy will be declared.

Consequences of the bankruptcy are as follows:

a/ no recruitment and no building of any sort will be allowed for the duration of the bankruptcy.
b/ If at the end of three turns, the secessionist kingdom treasury has not gone back in the black, the secession will be considered over and the secessionist avatar will be considered to have surrendered.

Funds can be provided by reducing upkeep, destroying buildings or conquering. Ransoms acquired against AI opponents by the secessionist avatar (or his vassals) will be added to the secessionist kingdom treasury. Ransom can also be sought from the Empire for the release of any avatar/units captured through a PvP battle.

1.6 Failure of the secession:

1.6.1/The secession will be considered to have failed if:

a/ the leader of the secession is captured or killed in battle by the loyalists. Any other cause of death will simply bring the succession to the “heir” (ie, the player next avatar or the in-game heir or elected avatar among his vassals in order of preference).
b/ Bankruptcy (on the terms described above)

1.6.2/Whatever the cause of the failure of the secession (except the death in battle of the avatar), the secessionist avatar will be considered to have surrendered to the ruling Basileus. All vassals of the secessionist avatar will be considered to have surrendered (except if rule 1.6.7 comes into effect)

1.6.3/Upon failure of the secession, all lands belonging to the secessionist avatar will revert to the Empire and become property of the Basileus.
Exception : if the secessionist avatar is killed/captured in a siege, then the captured province is considered property of the capturing avatar.
All lands belonging to secessionist vassals will automatically revert to the Basileus (unless rule 1.6.7 comes into effect)

1.6.4/, all funds belonging to the secession will revert to the Empire treasury (except if the failure results of a bankruptcy or if rule 1.6.7 comes into effect)

1.6.5/The fate of the captured avatars will be put into the hands of the Basileus. The Basileus can apply any conditions upon the captured, including release, execution or banishment as per Basileus power #16 (without consideration of authority).

1.6.7/Continuation of the secession:

In the event of a failure through capture/death of the secessionist avatar, vassals may choose to continue the secession, under the following conditions :

1/One among them must be appointed as new leader of the secession.
2/Requirement #1 must be met. Gift of provinces among vassals is allowed under this rule but all lands must be contiguous.
3/The treasury must be in the black.

If the secession is continued, then all funds belonging to the secession prior to the capture of the secessionist avatar remain property of the secessionist treasury.

1.7 The Magnaura and Voting :

The secessionist avatar loses automatically his power to vote upon his declaration of secession. For the purpose of the game, he should still cast his vote as “abstain on all proposals” to record his activity.

**Ibn-Khaldun** · 01-26-2009, 21:41

Wow!

That's a fine idea!!

Only how do I get those 5000 florins?

Does that mean that the towns should provide together income at least 5000 florins??

**_Tristan_** · 01-26-2009, 21:45

As I see it you will need to find them on your own or with your vassals by conquering and occupying/sacking/exterminating and declaring the secession at the same time...

Only then would the taxes from the city you own go to your treasury instead of into the Basileus' coffers...

**TinCow** · 01-26-2009, 22:03

Wait, do you want to actually try and calculate the income and expenses of each individual city in the separate kingdom? If so, I'm almost positive that is way, way too complicated to implement. The first time I read this I thought all income was just via conquering/sacking/ransoming from battles. That's relatively easy to keep track of. However, in the very old HRE Test game, we tried to figure out an actual income and expense breakdown for each city in the game, which seems to be what you're talking about now. It was extremely complicated, required an excel spreadsheet that few people even understood, and in the end turned out to be completely inaccurate anyway. IMO, if you want to do this you have to figure out a way to deal with the economics without doing major number crunching.

**_Tristan_** · 01-26-2009, 22:15

Maybe use some approximate number depending on variables such as number of cities and size, upkeep of units and agents, recruitment and building orders.

Expenses of the secession wouldn't be subtracted from the Empire treasury but from the secession treasury but Taxes from the Secessionist cities shouldn't be added to the Empire treasury neither.

Working with an approximation seems best and should only require some small adjustment at the start or end of each turn.

The secession shouldn't have to be on the offensive to remain alive, hence it needs some kind of regular income. The sacking bounty is just to egt it started so that the upkeep of the secessionist armies doesn't drag its treasury in the red right from the start.

I'm open to any suggestion about how to handle this in the best way.

**woad&fangs** · 01-26-2009, 23:36

Cool idea

A simple formula could probably be developed with # of cities, # of castles, market/port/agriculture upgrades all as variables. How much they would be worth would be determined by a consensus of what kind of army a nation with that kind of economy could field.

For example, using the above variables on my 4 settlements we could come to an agreemant(when this rule is created) that a reasonable army for the Woadistan Empire could be 3 units of militia, 2 skythikons, and 1 Trebizond archer. I could then have an army which costs up to the equivalent of the before mentioned army.

Does that make any sense?