OOC Thread and Chatroom 2

[TinCow]

Getting back to the Civil War (more like the secession rules here than LotR Civil Wars), I think it had an opposite effect. KotR players then, like LotR players now, were always welcoming of new players. However, after the empire becomes big enough for all the players there is less of an urgency as far as courting new avatars. Everyone is mostly cooperating, wars are easy, and everything begins to slow down (even the Venetian War here has hardly been a threat to our faction, despite some big losses as far as armies and generals).

When I joined it was a fairly big deal which House I joined. Players weren't just welcoming my character, several of them really needed him. It was the same for deguerra as I recall. I was instantly immersed in an exciting part of the game and started out as an asset for the side I joined. I would have the same luck with my next character, but largely because I worked to have him join Outremer which was in a desperate situation (as a result of the Cataclysm). All the other fronts became fairly quiet after a short period of retaking lost settlements.

I think stuff like these secession rules are a great idea now that we've reached that point of no return, where we could probably take on the rest of the map combined.

This is why PvP was built into LotR from the beginning. Both of the previous games (WotS and KotR) reached this point eventually and then turned to a round of PvP as kind of a celebration before ending. PvP was incorporated into LotR so that the in-fighting could occur much earlier and thus make a longer and more sustainable challenge for the players. Unfortunately, no one wanted to do it until we got so large that we were essentially at the WotS and KotR end-game levels. I still don't understand where this aversion came from, but trust me, it was caused by the players, not the rules. The AI will NEVER provide the same challenge that other players will. I tried to encourage this internal competition from day one, but no one really took it by the bit until very recently. You can change the rules, but you can't change the inclinations of the players.

That is true. The test for KotR proved that going too far into the finances was waaaay too time consuming and would require that the players hire a full-time accountant to manage the game's finances.

However, the way we are proposing contains only three things:

(1) The incomes of the secessionist towns be subtracted from the faction income.
(2) The upkeep of the secessionist units be added to the faction income.
(3) The secessionist get a certain amount of money per level of settlement.

Now that cannot take too long to add up and get the figures, in fact if people have a problem then like Zim I am willing to do the maths.

Actually, that can take a very long time to add up. You have to open up the info scroll for every single secessionist unit and the trade screen for every single secessionist town. You then have to add that all up, format it, and post it in some conceivable pattern. I know how long updates like this take, and that would probably take an extra hour to do properly. And the key is that it has to be done at the beginning of every single turn of the game. If the Megas is not doing it (I will veto any RC that puts that burden on him, because no one will want the job), then the game is frozen until the 'Economist' downloads the saves and does all the math. What if that person isn't around for 12 hours? 24 hours? You're talking about a major slowdown in LotR just to do this 'minimal' amount of calculations. If there's one thing I've learned from the LotR rule set, it's that efficiency must trump all other considerations when you're creating a game that is this ambitious. Any system that requires calculating the actual income and expenses of a certain segment of the Empire is not efficient.

I don't dislike the idea in general but I dislike this huge set of rules that comes along with it. If you truly wanted some more priviliges for your corner of the world, why not just start a Civil War and fight for those rights. Declare your independence and fight any other Senator until the Senate allows you to have the rank of King, an extra rank that works along the same lines of being Megas, Basileus, or Prince.

This new rank entails the following benefits:
+2 Prioritized Units, +1 Prioritized Building, 2 PUs can be explicitly named (not just Infantry/Cavalry/Archers).

This would guarantee the desired benefits you seek from secession. Only this time you fight first, win or loose and then get the benefits. Instead of the secession system where you fight, immediatelly get the benefits, and then win or loose.

I like this idea a great deal. I specifically made the 'rank' system extremely flexible so that we could add in stuff like this. It would be very easy to make a special 'Rebel' or "Secessionist' rank that achieves everything that people want, without the math. I've got to go to work at the moment, but once I get there I'll draw a basic outline of what this rank could be.

[Andres]

We've had quite a few rule changes in the course of this game. Personally, I don't like rules being changed while a game is still going.

I know it is inevitable to a certain extent in this type of game, but is this really necessary?

Personally, I liked the original setup (the rules as they were when the game started). A correction here and there if rules seem to be contradicting themselves or if they are unclear, ok, but changing them to the extent that you get a game that is completely different than how it started?

As a player and just speaking for me personally, frequent rule changes in the course of a game take away the joy.

a) I play games for fun. b) I was having fun => I don't see the need for change

EXAMPLE : in the beginning you needed to acquire a certain rank to have your own private army and to have some real fun. So, I tried to get my character to a sufficient rank, only to see the rules change. Now, you can just jump on a captain led stack and there you go: you have an army. With this secession thing, rank is no longer important, land is. These rule changes interfere with my approach. Yes, I play a game with ruleset A. So, I work to a goal within the framework of rule set A. If rule set A is turned into B and thus the framework changes drastically, well, that's not fun.

[Ituralde]

I agree with Andres. Before we change any rules and put all of our energy in this OOC discussion, why not put it into the game and try to achieve those things there. Who knows where it leads. I would find it more interesting to have these things appear naturally out of the game context than have the script laid out by a new set of rules and then just follow them.

[_Tristan_]

Please remember that said set of rules was proposed because I forwarded to Tincow a plan I had in mind, which he said could be enabled only through a Rule Change...

I am all for trying and going with my plan inside uour current set of rules, provided that my concerns with regard to the particular situation are taken into account.

I am not trying to create an undue advantage for my avatar but rather trying to create a believable and entertaining situation of Civil War, one that will condition action on both parts and not some dilly-dallying like we've seen until now (and for which I'm partly responsible )

The essential part being that by entering into a state of Civil War parts of the Empire should be cut-off from Central Power, funds should be on the wane and fortunes of war should belong to the taker.

A civil war is simply not a simple feudal quarrel : it has more scope. It should endanger the very essence of the Empire, things which the current set of rules do not create, IMHO.

[TinCow]

Ok, here's a rough draft of a way to implement a secession system through ranks only. This cuts out all the economic issues and keeps things consistent with the current rule set. If a secession system is going to be included, this is the format that I would prefer to have it in. I will not get involved in the discussion as to whether a secession system is good for the game or not. I can live with it either way, so I leave it up to the players to decide via a vote on a Rule Change.

Rebel:
Requirements:
(1) Must own at least 2 contiguous provinces and then declare oneself a Rebel in a public thread OR
(2) Be a vassal of a Rebel.
Influence: None
Powers:
(1) This rank is always held at the same time as other feudal ranks. The Powers and Penalties of the Rebel are added on top of the Powers and Penalties of the Senator’s other feudal rank(s). In the event of contradictory Powers and Penalties, the Rebel Powers and Penalties take precedence.
(2) If the Rebel rank is obtained by declaration, rather than swearing, the Rebel must designate one of his provinces as his Capital. The Capital must be contiguous to at least one other province owned by the Rebel or any of his vassals. At the moment that the Capital is declared, provinces owned by the Rebel or his vassals which are not connected to the Capital by contiguous land borders are instantly lost and become the property of the Basileus. This territory will be known as the Rebel's 'Realm.'
(3) If the Rebel rank is obtained by declaration, the Senator automatically breaks any Oath to his Lord.
(4) The Megas Logothetes may not move any Captain led stack within the Realm, nor any fleet in the port of a settlement in the Realm.
(5) Is not bound by any Edicts or Amendments.
Penalties:
(1) When this rank is obtained, the Rebel is considered to have made an automatic declaration of war against all Senators who are still part of the Empire. Rebels cannot make Peace Treaties.
(2) Cannot propose or vote on Edicts or Amendments in any Senate session. Cannot run for or vote in the election for Megas Logothetes.
(3) Cannot prioritize any Units or Buildings.
(4) Taxes are set to Very High in all settlements within the Realm.
(5) If the Capital is captured by a hostile Senator, the rank of Rebel is lost. In order to continue the Rebellion, the Senator must proclaim himself a Rebel again, assuming he still meets the requirements for it.

Secessionist:
Requirements:
(1) Must have been a Rebel for 5 turns OR
(2) Be a vassal of a Secessionist.
Influence: None
Powers:
(1) This rank is always held at the same time as other feudal ranks. The Powers and Penalties of the Secessionist are added on top of the Powers and Penalties of the Senator’s other feudal rank(s). In the event of contradictory Powers and Penalties, the Secessionist Powers and Penalties take precedence.
(2) The Megas Logothetes may not move any Captain led stack within the Realm, nor any fleet in the port of a settlement in the Realm.
(3) Is not bound by any Edicts or Amendments.
Penalties:
(1) When this rank is obtained, the Secessionist is considered to have made an automatic declaration of war against all Senators who are still part of the Empire. Secessionists cannot make Peace Treaties.
(2) Cannot propose or vote on Edicts or Amendments in any Senate session. Cannot run for or vote in the election for Megas Logothetes.
(3) If the Capital is captured by a hostile Senator, the rank of Secessionist is lost. In order to continue the Rebellion, the Senator must proclaim himself a Rebel again, assuming he still meets the requirements for it.

Independent Ruler:
Requirements:
(1) Must have been a Secessionist for 5 turns OR
(2) Be a vassal of an Independent Ruler.
Influence: None
Powers:
(1) This rank is always held at the same time as other feudal ranks. The Powers and Penalties of the Independent Ruler are added on top of the Powers and Penalties of the Senator’s other feudal rank(s). In the event of contradictory Powers and Penalties, the Independent Ruler's Powers and Penalties take precedence.
(2) May create his own title instead of "Independent Ruler" and may determine the correlating titles of all his vassals.
(3) The Megas Logothetes may not move any Captain led stack within the Realm, nor any fleet in the port of a settlement in the Realm.
(4) If this rank is held during a Normal Senate Session, can Prioritize a total of 1 unit per province within the Realm and 1 building per 3 provinces within the Realm per full 10 turn Megas Logothetes term. This Power is cumulative with the ability to Prioritize units under any other rank held by the Independent Ruler.
(5) Can declare war on any faction at any time, for any reason.
(6) Is not bound by any Edicts or Amendments.
(7) Unless they have the permission of the Independent Ruler, any neutral Senator entering a province of the Realm is considered to have automatically declared war on the Independent Ruler.
(8) During any Senate session, can give a temporary bonus of 1 influence to any loyal Senator of the Empire for every 2 provinces in the Realm. The loyal Senator must agree to accept this temporary bonus before it can be added. The offer and acceptance of the bonus may be kept secret until all votes are tallied.
Penalties:
(1) Cannot propose or vote on Edicts or Amendments in any Senate session. Cannot run for or vote in the election for Megas Logothetes.
(2) If the Capital is captured by a hostile Senator, the rank of Independent Ruler is lost. In order to continue the Rebellion, the Senator must proclaim himself a Rebel again, assuming he still meets the requirements for it.
(3) Can move the Capital to another province within the Realm, but this results in the Independent Ruler becoming a Secessionist once again.

This is essentially a three-tiered system for rebellions. Someone declares themselves a rebel, and *poof*, they're a rebel (if they meet the land requirements). Their vassals go with them into the rebellion, but can bow out easily by breaking the oath and then declaring neutrality to get out of the wars. The rebel has to have multiple contiguous provinces, and delegates one province as the Capital. This settlement must be very well protected, because if it is lost at any point, the Rebel loses all progress towards independence and must either give up or reset the clock back to zero and start again. For the first five turns (Rebel) the 'Realm' is in turmoil and the Rebel gets no benefits. He has to survive off of what he has already accumulated, and taxes are set to Very High to mimic the immense social problems that the locals would have with breaking away from the Empire. The Independent Ruler can also meddle in the politics of the Empire by giving extra influence to someone who favors his policies, but he requires a willing lackey in the Senate in order to do so.

If the Rebel survives 5 turns, then his lands start to return to order. He regains the ability to prioritize units and set his own tax rates. After a further 5 turns (10 total) he is finally an independent kingdom and can make peace with the rest of the Empire. At this point, he gets a bonus to both PUs and PBs, in reflection of the prestige of successfully rebelling. This bonus can grow extremely large if large parts of the Empire are in rebellion. This in turn acts as an incentive for the Empire to deal with growing Independent states. Small rebellions will not impact the state much, but large ones could effectively bankrupt the state and hinder all economic growth.

Due to not being part of the Empire, none of these ranks are subject to the laws of the Empire, but they also cannot take part in governing it. They can still speak in the Magnaura if the Basileus allows it, but they can't do much else (except Rule Changes). They have to determine for themselves how their own kingdom is to be managed and are responsible for enforcing their own rules on their own subjects, just like in a House.

[Rowan]

I like TinCow's proposal best. Simple, effective and creates both immediate and long term benefits to having a civil war. Besides it makes land worth something even if you have more land than people.

The problem with civil wars has been (at least from my perspective) that there really isn't a long term benefit. Power in this game is a) size of the house and b) land. After the first two terms there has been ample land for everyone and it's almost always easier to take land from the AI. So it's all about getting people to join your house and that is as much an OOC as IC effort. So the only real power you could gain from a civil war is forcing someone to swear an oath to you. And doing that might have quite severe repercussions in Magnaura.

[Ituralde]

The problem with civil wars has been (at least from my perspective) that there really isn't a long term benefit. Power in this game is a) size of the house and b) land. After the first two terms there has been ample land for everyone and it's almost always easier to take land from the AI. So it's all about getting people to join your house and that is as much an OOC as IC effort. So the only real power you could gain from a civil war is forcing someone to swear an oath to you. And doing that might have quite severe repercussions in Magnaura.

Very accurate assessment if you ask me!

[_Tristan_]

I find the set of rules agreeable though I find the Very High taxes penalties a bit harsh. Mostly because it doesn't take into account the fact that you wouldn't anymore suffer the distance to capital penalty.

Second, this set of rules still doesn't take into account the possibility for the rebel/secessionist to keep for himself any ransom/sacking money.

Lastly, this set of rule doesn't take into account the possibility for the rebel to recruit units or build improvements.

[TinCow]

1) Of course you would suffer the distance to capital penalty, at least for a short while. Just because you declare independence one moment does not mean the inhabitents of your provinces will suddenly become instantly loyal to you. Civil revolts are very likely, and it would take a strong hand or a very charismatic leader to keep people in order during such a rebellion. If you've got unpopular personality traits and not a large enough army to keep order on VH taxes, you are essentially rebelling while very weak and you will have a hard time suviving through it. In any case, taxes in castles can't be changed, so there won't be rebellions there. The point is that for the first 5 turns, rebels will likely have to focus exclusively on keeping order in their Realm, not expanding. This seems realistic to me.

2) This is correct, but why do you need that money? Once you are fully independent, you get more PUs and PBs than other people of the same rank as you. Plus, keeping track of ransom/sacking money just throws us back into the economics headache.

3) Yes it does, once you're a Secessionist you get access to your PUs and PBs just like anyone else. When you finally become an Independent Ruler, you actually get a very large number of them, and that number increases with the amount of land you obtain.

[Ramses II CP]

Hang on a second, didn't LotR get set up as a hotseat style game from the start anyway? Why don't we just enable a second nation to be played? With a little diplomacy it should be possible to set up any other faction as Byzantium 2 or whatever.

There's the one time akwardness of recreating avatars that want to switch sides, but then there's no tracking economic data or anything else because the game does it all for you. No need for more rules when there's a mechanism already in place, right?

[TinCow]

Hang on a second, didn't LotR get set up as a hotseat style game from the start anyway? Why don't we just enable a second nation to be played? With a little diplomacy it should be possible to set up any other faction as Byzantium 2 or whatever.

There's the one time akwardness of recreating avatars that want to switch sides, but then there's no tracking economic data or anything else because the game does it all for you. No need for more rules when there's a mechanism already in place, right?

Yes, we can play other factions, but AFAIK, there's no way to switch current Byzantine settlements over to that faction. The only thing I could think of would be to take an existing faction and have them conquer the provinces we want to change into Byzantium 2, then have them lose all their old provinces. Then we have to bribe all the avatars over to the new faction, then we have to get at least one adopted into the new family, and then we need to kill the entire old family off. Even after this is done, all units and family members in the future will belong to the new faction, not Byzantium. This means they'll use completely different units and have the wrong family member names in the future. I don't think I need to explain why all of this is impractical.

[_Tristan_]

Just to answer Tincow's point from above :

1/ That I could understand but shouldn't we allow to take into account some varaible based on the avatar stats about how much public order would suffer and maybe some other variables pertaining to the neglect of said provinces by central power.
Example : During Makedonios' reign, the Order may have seceded and most likely the citizens of the Order-held provinces would have stood by their lords due to Megas Ioannis neglecting them.
And that doesn't take into account the upheaval that would shake the Empire as a whole. Taxes should go up one notch in most Empire provinces as well, IMHO. Ideas of rebellion spread far and fast.

2/ The problem is that you're not fully independent from the start and as I saw the secession, it was making use of an opportunity offered by some war loot to free yourself from the Empire yoke. As I saw it, it was an easier to wage a civil war as a rebel than the mechanism allows as it is, which has been a strong impediment to how my last involvement evolved.
By way of this war loot, you might in effect be ven richer than the Empire.
Example : the current Byzantine treasury is around 7000 florins when the fall of Venice could net over 10000 florins in one stroke, and that's not mentioning Rome.
If I were to secede, I would seek to deny the Empire I am rebelling against those same funds.
Otherwise, it would feel like Han Solo turning over the Millenium Falcon to Darth Vader before the battle of the Death Star.

3/Having PUs and PBs galore is a long shot from being an Independent Ruler... You're still liable to the will of the Megas, if I read this right.

Plus, it doesn't make sense to me as those rebel PUs/PBs would hamper Loyalist PUs/PBs and the other way round.

EDIT : The proposed set of rules doesn't mention the fate of agents.

[TinCow]

1) I think increasing taxes in nearby loyalist settlements makes sense. It's also a big incentive for Senators bordering the 'Realm' to try and destroy it quickly.

2&3) I used the PUs and PBs because they are already part of the game. As I've said before, I think that anything that involves calculating the actual amount of florins rebels have and can spend is a bad idea. I'm open to hearing other options that are simpler, if you don't like using PUs and PBs.

[_Tristan_]

About financial questions, calculating the cost of upkeep of the secession would not demand big efforts. Unless there are big battles involved in every turn, the numbers in said armies/garrisons shouldn't vary very much from onr turn to the next.

Iggy's idea of using approximation or some kind of king's purse for the secession would also facilitate the tracing of the secession funds.

Secession treasury would gain X florins (=king's purse every turn) added to the starting treasury. These sums could then be used as he saw fit by the secession faction, much like a second Megas. The "true" Megas would only have to make sure he doesn't above what remains in the treasury once the Secession treasury has been deducted from it.

All we would have to agree on in this scenario is what value would each city be worth and what other variables should be taken into account.

Then, the secession treasury could be easily assessed at the end/beginning of each turn.

EDIT : Sorry if I seem a bit obstinate about this, but I think this is the crux of the problem and what could make the difference between a viable and a still-born rebellion.

As we say in France, "L'argent est le nerf de la guerre" or "Money is the nerve of war"

[_Tristan_]

One more question : suppose there is a neighbouring avatar-less loyalist settlement next to a secessionist. How would the conquest of it be handled ?

Would it surrender automatically ? Would it be fought as a siege battle ?

[TinCow]

I am very far from convinced that any system involving number-crunching is a good idea. If a sufficient majority of players approve of it to allow it to be passed as a Rule Change, I will not veto it. However, I will not do the math myself and I will veto any Rule Change proposal that makes the Megas do it. I will also continue to express my disapproval of such a system, as I think it would cause immense problems for the game. If you're not willing to look for a compromise system that does not involve math, then I'm not going to put any more effort into writing draft rules for this.

For neighbouring avatar-less loyalist settlements, they still belong to someone. I would make you fight to conquer them, but it would almost certainly be a Custom Battle against the AI, like YLC fought to take over Durazzo. So, you'd still have to win, but it wouldn't likely be very difficult. This is how I would handle the conquest of any settlement that didn't have a player defending it, even in a normal Civil War.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Taking the save!

Gah! I knew I forgot to do something!

[TheFlax]

Gah! I knew I forgot to do something!

Likewise.

After reading about the "Rebel" ranks in TC's post I have to change my position, in my opinion that option blends simplicity and practicability while still being in the spirit of what Tristan proposed. Staying within the current system of rules, whenever possible, is for the best I think.

[Northnovas]

Sorry about that I was wondering why Aleppo was still under siege?
Actually I was in a bit of a panic I would have waited longer but the old desktop is a bit unstable. The blue screen nvp_24 disp on start up which means going to safe mode, uninstalling and reinstalling the video driver.
I just got home and now I am having some power issues with it. It just shuts off at random. Only a couple turns left and I am trying to stabilize the cpu till the new one is purchased. This is being researched as I type because I want the full effect no hold back when ETW comes out next month.

[ULC]

I actually like what TC has proposed, it works within the current system and gives the long term benefits needed.

As to the PU PB however, I like the idea of Secessionist and Independent Rulers bonus PU's and PB's coming first - this allows some power without crippling loyalists, and keeps the Megas from simply ignoring the rebels because "there isn't enough money".

[Zim]

That is a bit out of context. However, I really, really like the idea of covering secessions by creating new ranks. It's easy, doesn't add a lot of complicated rules, and as proposed by TinCow is difficult while still having payoffs for succeeding.

Isn't it fun to wake up to a huge discussion!

The following quote, though I must admit I have taken it out of context, pretty much sums up the feelings I have about the proposed Rule Change.

[Cecil XIX]

Having waited a bit to speak, I think Tincow's 3-tier proposal is the best. The changes discussed here have all been very big, so big that to add them on to the existing rules makes the whole thing unwieldy. Since Tincow is the original author of the rules, he's the one who's best able to add such a major change seamlessly.

Edit: However, I do think it's reasonable to allow to allow rebels to keep money they gain from sacking cities. Taking an AI province doesn't happen that often, and we could impose a timelimit to spend it. Say, the money has to be spent on construction or recruitment by the end of the next turn, or when the current Megas reign ends. At the very least money gained from sacking should be removed from the treasury via console, this prevents rebels from being forced to fund their enemies and could be done immediately without having to keep track of any numbers at all.

[Ignoramus]

The problem I have is that the loyalists are paying for the rebellious troops. That shouldn't happen. Apart from that, it sounds like a reasonable compromise.

[Cecil XIX]

The problem I have is that the loyalists are paying for the rebellious troops. That shouldn't happen. Apart from that, it sounds like a reasonable compromise.

Depending on the situation, it could also be that excess income from an Independant Ruler's cities goes into the Basileus's coffers.

[Ignoramus]

I hadn't thought of that.

Well, I'm happy with TC's proposed set of rules. Should we put it to a vote?

[Ibn-Khaldun]

That upkeep and tax money thing can be roleplayed like some magistrates/officials are corrupt and giving some money to the rebels.

[Ituralde]

I'm gonna be on a short trip from Thursday to Sunday! If the Megas Logothetes could move Nikitas Moschos towards Sinop during the time I am away it would be much appreciated. I updated my SoT to reflect this.

Don't do any votes without me!

Ituralde

[TinCow]

This Senate Session has not arrived at a good time for me. I have house guests over from tomorrow evening through Sunday (which also require cleaning this evening) and will not be online much during that time. This will not pose a problem for creating the various polling threads and such, but the Library update may be a bit slow in coming. I ask forgiveness in advance if it is tardy.

[TheFlax]

Sorry for taking the save, for some reason I thought we had one more turn before the session.

[Northnovas]

Sorry for taking the save, for some reason I thought we had one more turn before the session.

I thought we had a turn left but I miscalculated. I have to remember terms end on 0 or 5.