OOC Thread and Chatroom 2

[Ituralde]

Wouldn't the Rule Change be handled completely OOC? Just wondering about the post in the Magnaura...

[Andres]

I have house guests over from tomorrow evening through Sunday (which also require cleaning this evening) and will not be online much during that time.

That sound so familiar

My parents and my father in law will be visiting Saturday.

Guess I'll be cleaning the house on Friday evening

[TinCow]

Wouldn't the Rule Change be handled completely OOC? Just wondering about the post in the Magnaura...

Technically it still needs to be proposed in there, but I agree that the discussions should remain in here because they are OOC. Also, that rule change I wrote was a draft. There are problems with it as it is currently written. I'll try and spiff it up a bit today to remove these problems, but I will veto the current version because it is incomplete and will cause rule conflicts.

[Ignoramus]

Technically it still needs to be proposed in there, but I agree that the discussions should remain in here because they are OOC. Also, that rule change I wrote was a draft. There are problems with it as it is currently written. I'll try and spiff it up a bit today to remove these problems, but I will veto the current version because it is incomplete and will cause rule conflicts.

Ok, can you then replace my Rule Change which your final version? I just want the change to be put forward for voting this session, otherwise we'd have to wait until next term or delay the game with an emergency session.

[TinCow]

Sure thing, Ig. I'll get a better version up later and just edit your post to insert it there. I'll make a post in here as well when I do so.

Please do continue to discuss whether you guys want a change like this as well. I am contributing these rules simply because I want to make sure that if there is a major movement to adds this, that it's done in a way that will work. I am still completely neutral on whether it should actually be added.

[TinCow]

New version of Secession Rule Change:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The following ranks will be added to Rule 2.7:

• Rebel:
  Requirements:
  (1) Must own at least 2 contiguous provinces and then declare oneself a Rebel in a public thread OR
  (2) Be a vassal of a Rebel.
  Influence: None
  Powers:
  (1) This rank is always held at the same time as other feudal ranks. The Powers and Penalties of the Rebel are added on top of the Powers and Penalties of the Senator’s other feudal rank(s). In the event of contradictory Powers and Penalties, the Rebel Powers and Penalties take precedence.
  (2) If the Rebel rank is obtained by declaration, rather than swearing, the Rebel must designate one of his provinces as his Capital. The Capital must be contiguous to at least one other province owned by the Rebel or any of his vassals. At the moment that the Capital is declared, provinces owned by the Rebel or his vassals which are not connected to the Capital by contiguous land borders are instantly lost and become the property of the Basileus. TinCow will determine whether an island province is contiguous to continental provinces. This territory will be known as the Rebel's 'Realm.'
  (3) If the Rebel rank is obtained by declaration, the Senator automatically breaks any Oath to his Lord.
  (4) If the Rebel rank is obtained by swearing an Oath, all of the Senator's provinces which are not contiguous to the Realm of the new Lord become the property of the Basileus.
  (5) Is not bound by any Senate Edicts or Amendments.
  (6) Is immune to Basileus' Powers 6, 7, and 16.
  Penalties:
  (1) When this rank is obtained, the Rebel is considered to have made an automatic declaration of war against all Senators who are still part of the Empire. Rebels cannot make Peace Treaties.
  (2) Cannot propose or vote on Edicts or Amendments in any Senate session. Cannot run for or vote in the election for Megas Logothetes.
  (3) Cannot prioritize any Units or Buildings.
  (4) Taxes are set to Very High in all settlements within the Realm.
  (5) If the Capital is captured by a hostile Senator, the rank of Rebel is lost. In order to continue the Rebellion, the Senator must proclaim himself a Rebel again, assuming he still meets the requirements for it.
  (6) Cannot hold the ranks of Dean or Scholar.
  
  
• Secessionist:
  Requirements:
  (1) Must have been a Rebel for 5 turns OR
  (2) Be a vassal of a Secessionist.
  Influence: None
  Powers:
  (1) This rank is always held at the same time as other feudal ranks. The Powers and Penalties of the Secessionist are added on top of the Powers and Penalties of the Senator’s other feudal rank(s). In the event of contradictory Powers and Penalties, the Secessionist Powers and Penalties take precedence.
  (2) If the Rebel rank is obtained by swearing an Oath, all of the Senator's provinces which are not contiguous to the Realm of the new Lord become the property of the Basileus.
  (3) Is not bound by any Senate Edicts or Amendments.
  (4) Is immune to Basileus' Powers 6, 7, and 16.
  (5) Taxes are set to High in all adjacent non-Realm settlements.
  Penalties:
  (1) When this rank is obtained, the Secessionist is considered to have made an automatic declaration of war against all Senators who are still part of the Empire. Secessionists cannot make Peace Treaties.
  (2) Cannot propose or vote on Edicts or Amendments in any Senate session. Cannot run for or vote in the election for Megas Logothetes.
  (3) If the Capital is captured by a hostile Senator, the rank of Secessionist is lost. In order to continue the Rebellion, the Senator must proclaim himself a Rebel again, assuming he still meets the requirements for it.
  (4) Cannot hold the ranks of Dean or Scholar.
  
  
• Independent Ruler:
  Requirements:
  (1) Must have been a Secessionist for 5 turns OR
  (2) Be a vassal of an Independent Ruler.
  Influence: None
  Powers:
  (1) This rank is always held at the same time as other feudal ranks. The Powers and Penalties of the Independent Ruler are added on top of the Powers and Penalties of the Senator’s other feudal rank(s). In the event of contradictory Powers and Penalties, the Independent Ruler's Powers and Penalties take precedence.
  (2) May create his own title instead of "Independent Ruler" and may determine the correlating titles of all his vassals, unless the Independent Ruler is loyal to another Senator.
  (3) If this rank is held during a Normal Senate Session, can Prioritize a total of 1 unit per province within the Realm and 1 building per 3 provinces within the Realm per full 10 turn Megas Logothetes term. This Power is cumulative with the ability to Prioritize units under any other rank held by the Independent Ruler. This power is void if the Independent Ruler is loyal to another Senator.
  (5) Can declare war on any faction at any time, for any reason, unless the Independent Ruler is loyal to another Senator.
  (6) Is not bound by any Senate Edicts or Amendments.
  (7) Is immune to Basileus' Powers 6, 7, and 16.
  (8) Unless they have the permission of the Independent Ruler, any neutral Senator entering a province of the Realm owned by the Independent Ruler is considered to have automatically declared war on the Independent Ruler.
  (9) During any Senate session, can give a temporary bonus of 1 influence to any loyal Senator of the Empire for every 2 provinces in the Realm. The loyal Senator must agree to accept this temporary bonus before it can be added. The offer and acceptance of the bonus may be kept secret until all votes are tallied, but TinCow must be informed of the deal via PM. This power is void if the Independent Ruler is loyal to another Senator.
  (10) Taxes are set to Very High in all adjacent non-Realm settlements.
  (11) Can move the Capital to any other province within the Realm, but this results in the Independent Ruler becoming a Secessionist once again. This power is void if the Independent Ruler is loyal to another Senator.
  Penalties:
  (1) Cannot propose or vote on Edicts or Amendments in any Senate session. Cannot run for or vote in the election for Megas Logothetes.
  (2) If the Capital is captured by a hostile Senator, the rank of Independent Ruler is lost. In order to continue the Rebellion, the Senator must proclaim himself a Rebel again, assuming he still meets the requirements for it.
  (3) Cannot be a Dean or a Scholar.

Megas Logothetes Powers will be altered to read as follows:

(3) Except as stated in Rule 4.1, the Megas Logothetes can move all armies that start a turn led by a Captain, unless that stack started the turn inside a Realm.
(4) Except as stated in Rule 4.3, the Megas Logothetes can move all fleets, unless they started the turn inside a port in a Realm.

Notable changes:
1) Rebels, etc. are immune to some of the Basileus' powers, even when at peace with him.
2) Taxes are set to High in all loyal Empire provinces adjacent to a Realm that belongs to a Secessionist. Taxes are set to Very High if the Realm belongs to an Independent Ruler. This is essentially an inverse of the penalties inflicted on the Rebel. The more successful the secessionist movement, the greater the havoc caused within the Empire. This is further incentive to quickly crush any rebellions that occur.
3) Not a change, but please note that I have intentionally left Basileus' Penalty #1 alone. This prevents the Basileus from ever becoming a Rebel, etc. I apologize if this irks anyone, but it really makes no sense whatsoever for the Basileus to secede from his own Empire. This also means that if for some reason a Rebel, etc. eventually becomes Basileus, the rebellion ends and the lands are re-incorporated into the Empire. This also makes sense from an IC perspective.
4) Rebels, etc. cannot use the University. It's in Constantinople, and they're not welcome there for obvious reasons.

[TheFlax]

I thought that a declaration of war by edict, by the basileus or by a Mega Dux was part of the rules of the game, as much as ranks, influence or civil wars, which can't be broken.

Demetrios comes into the Magnuara, and when the guards move to take his sword, it takes only a stare and they back down. Brushing past them, Demetrios walks into the center of the Magnuara. He pulls out a letter from inside his cloak and begins reading.

"Dear Senators of the Roman Empire,

I send word from the Adriatic, with hopes that All senators are in good health - condolences to Aleksios ek Pigis family, I am certain he died bravely defending the ideals of the Imperium to the last breath.

I understand the nature with which I am treated currently among you - as a lesser man, an outlaw. So in this state of mind, I can accomplish what you cannot, since I am no longer bound our law.

I intend to lay siege, and sack, Rome. I will exile the pretender, the "Pope", and I will then send Rome's treasury, minus enough to support me in pacifying Rome and replenishing my troops, to you good Senators. I am sure our Basileus and our Patriarch will be pleased.

I wish you well in your own endeavors

Respectfully, Comes Helarionas Anargiros"

Demetrios then turns and calmly takes his seat.

[Ignoramus]

I think a rebel can declare war - maybe not.

[TheFlax]

The thing is, its not only him declaring war, its dragging all of us into it. If its permitted though, I won't make a fuss. Just making sure.

[Zim]

I'd like to start off by saying I think it would be cool for Helarionas to march on Rome.

From an IC standpoint it makes sense that Helarionas, a wanted rebel (of sorts, although not too many are really chasing him), would be free of restrictions on what to do with his army.

From a rules standpoint I don't think he has any special status from the event, but I could be wrong. The ability to declare wars without going through proper channels isn't addressed in the rules, and only mentioned in TC's current draft of the secession rules, as an ability gained by a rebel that makes it all the way to independent ruler.

[ULC]

You know, I am online, you don't have to talk about it as if I'm not here

This is an act by a man who is an outlaw - why should he care at this point about Imperial law when Imperial law is bringing him to justice? And Edicts are IC laws - they can be broken, unlike OOC rules, so the edict binding all you by moral obligation and self-interest does not bind me

[TheFlax]

Declaring war is an OOC rule and not an edict, that was my whole point by saying it was a "Game Rule".

Also, to follow your logic, you would be the sole victim of any reprisal. Yet, if you take Rome, other factions who would decide to declare war will not limit themselves to you.

[Ignoramus]

Maybe TC will decide that's time that we had every Catholic faction attack us...

[TheFlax]

If he does, can I retract my candidacy as Megas?

[ULC]

IIRC their was an edict passed long ago limiting the ability to declare war without consent of the senators. Second, of course I would not be the sole victim of my reprisal - yet would I really wait for a body of senators who want to hang me to let me go and attack a city? Would an outlaw really ask the sheriff if he can go rob a bank? Common sense dictates that as a person for who all intents and purposes is being hunted as an outlaw, I would behave like one.

Also, I am very sleepy, so this may or may not make any sense. Still, can you answer why IC I would not go and attack Rome or why I can't?

[Zim]

I'm guessing it has less to do with anything IC (where Helarionas being free to attack whomever makes perfect sense) than this particular rule.

"3.7 – War: Except as allowed by rank powers under Rule 2.7, any declaration of war must be authorized by an Edict.'

[Ignoramus]

I think TinCow told us that edicts had to be enforced by IC means.

[ULC]

And thus, I am expecting severe enforcement of this Edict - c'mon you cowards! Fight meeeeeeeee!

[Zim]

It's not an edict, but part of the charter (or whatever we call it in this newfangled LotR.) If TinCow chose to enforce it, it'd be him and his mighty godlike powers Helarionas would be up against, and not other Senators.

If it's really a big issue, perhaps there could be an OOC vote on whether to just make this part of the event.

[_Tristan_]

IC, you can do whatever you want but within the confines of the rules... And declaring war is, by the OOC rules, limited to the Basileus or en Edict passed by the Senators.

Still, I think the last word should be given by TC as he authorized your "rebellion", I bet he knew what you had in mind from the start.

[ULC]

I understand the Tristan, but why WOULDN'T my avatar go off and do this? He is supposed to sit outside of Rome and say. "Drat, foiled by that alternate reality! I am forced to sit here and stare those Papal troops down because the laws of psychology in this universe are screwy! You there, enough about my mother and elderberries!"

[TheFlax]

For one, Edicts only last for one term, after that they are void. Second, as I kept writing, the provisions for declaring war is a Rule and thus not something IC at all. Zim quoted it a few posts earlier.

As for IC reasons, you may have plenty and Helarionas could logically declare war. Yet, the rules make it impossible for YLC, the player to declare war without an Edict, being the Basileus or Being a Mega Dux.

Edit: Was writing this before the last few posts, so sorry if it overlaps with what has been said.

[Ignoramus]

I know your frustration, YLC - I had to face it on occasions in KotR. But we have to play by the rules, otherwise the game doesn't work. TinCow is quite sensible when it comes to situations like these.

[TheFlax]

I understand the Tristan, but why WOULDN'T my avatar go off and do this? He is supposed to sit outside of Rome and say. "Drat, foiled by that alternate reality! I am forced to sit here and stare those Papal troops down because the laws of psychology in this universe are screwy! You there, enough about my mother and elderberries!"

For the same reason I can't, as a player recruit, a bunch of troops in my province if I am not Megas.

[ULC]

For the same reason I can't, as a player recruit, a bunch of troops in my province if I am not Megas.

Yes, BUT there is actual, sensible reasoning behind that. The current laws of the Imperium say that the Megas controls training and production, and as a law abiding Senator, your bound to that. One could argue that you could go and rebel, thus opening up the ability to recruit as much as you like, but logically, if the Megas controlled the purse strings from the start, he would still control them even when you rebel. That can all be handled IC without any real conflicts.

However, saying I cannot declare war on Rome as I like while being in my current predicament literally flies in the face of logic IMHO. Why on earth can I not? If a plausible IC reason can be thought of, that's fine, and I too understand for the need of OOC rules, but our IC actions shouldn't be constrained by an OOC rule that creates an IC situation that doesn't make any sense.

[TheFlax]

If TC says you can go and attack Rome after you present him your reasoning, then that will be fine. I'm simply noting that's its an OOC rule, so you have to abide by it unless given a dispensation.

Look, after sacking Ragusa the Empire gained over 8000 florins. I could have argued all day that IC I keep the money and buy and maintain mercs for a few turns with it, no? Still that would have been against the rules.

The whole point is, unless TC says its okay, then you have to follow to rules or you'll face OOC consequences.

[ULC]

He better...

[_Tristan_]

The whole point is, unless TC says its okay, then you have to follow to rules or you'll face OOC consequences.

Exactly... I can't count the number of times I said how cool it would be to do this IC but knowing it would break an OOC rule I didn't...

[Andres]

Yes, BUT there is actual, sensible reasoning behind that. The current laws of the Imperium say that the Megas controls training and production, and as a law abiding Senator, your bound to that. One could argue that you could go and rebel, thus opening up the ability to recruit as much as you like, but logically, if the Megas controlled the purse strings from the start, he would still control them even when you rebel. That can all be handled IC without any real conflicts.

However, saying I cannot declare war on Rome as I like while being in my current predicament literally flies in the face of logic IMHO. Why on earth can I not? If a plausible IC reason can be thought of, that's fine, and I too understand for the need of OOC rules, but our IC actions shouldn't be constrained by an OOC rule that creates an IC situation that doesn't make any sense.

It's a game and each game has rules.

I think all these rule changes are starting to turn things upside down.

It shouldn't be : X plays game, rules gets in the way, change rule.
It should be : X plays game, rules gets in the way, adapt and follow the rule, continue playing.

If we are going to constantly change the rules because we don't like them, then why the heck did we bother with having rules in the first place?

Why can't we just accept the limits of the rules (and the M2TW engine we use as a tool to play this game)?

I liked the game in its' original design, otherwise I wouldn't have signed up.

Just my

[_Tristan_]

I agree with you, Andres.

But one must keep in mind that us players can come up with a lot of situations that cannot be handled by the rules (simply because those situations depend a lot on IC circumstances) and not all could be foreseen when writing the rules.

I see this kind of game more as a WIP, with necessary tweaking along the way.

And let us remember that any major Rule Change is put to the vote. If players do not like the changes proposed, they can vote against it and even campaign against it if need be.