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Thread: Composition hellenistic armies

  1. #1
    Member Member Dutchhoplite's Avatar
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    Default Composition hellenistic armies

    I´ve found parts of Bar-Kochva's book on the Seleucids on google books and John Warry stands here on the shelve.

    Anyone more suggestions, sources or tips on the composition of Hellenistic armies??
    I love the smell of bronze in the morning!

    Campaigns completed: Vanilla Seleucid, EB 1.2. Carthaginian, RSII Pergamon

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    Biotechnlogy Student Member ||Lz3||'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Composition hellenistic armies

    there was a really good guide about that but I'm afraid I don't remember where I found it ...

    I think it was in one of Quintus' AARs
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    Biotechnlogy Student Member ||Lz3||'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Composition hellenistic armies

    bumpytidompity

    no one has a clue?
    or no one has the time-patience to explain?
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  4. #4

    Default Re: Composition hellenistic armies

    Last edited by Lysimachos; 08-04-2008 at 07:26.
    Read about glory and decline of the Seleucid Empire... (EB 1.1 AAR)

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    Biotechnlogy Student Member ||Lz3||'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Composition hellenistic armies

    Quote Originally Posted by Lysimachos View Post
    yay that was the one I was refering to thanks a lot
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    Member Member Dutchhoplite's Avatar
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    Default Re: Composition hellenistic armies

    I've been looking too. I've found a lot of wargame army lists ranging from the early armies, like the Eumenid, to the more "exotic" Cyrenaican Greeks.

    I dont know how accurate these are but they *could* be used as a guideline. Here they are:

    http://fanaticus.org/DBA/armies/index.html

    And:

    http://www.dbaol.com/armies.htm
    Last edited by Dutchhoplite; 08-04-2008 at 11:30.
    I love the smell of bronze in the morning!

    Campaigns completed: Vanilla Seleucid, EB 1.2. Carthaginian, RSII Pergamon

  7. #7

    Default Re: Composition hellenistic armies

    The second link doesn't seem very accurate, from what I've seen of their Hungarian setups.

    Edit: The first link isn't either. The thing to remember about early Hungarian armies, and even those well into the Christian kingdom period, is that infantry isn't mentioned at all in the historical sources. Apart from (presumably) using them as garrison troops for castles in the later period, they didn't form any part of the early Hungarian army (which was focused basically on fast looting raids into Europe, for which infantry is completely useless), so this "Slavic spearmen" or adding 8 spear units into the early Hungarian army is a dead give-away of a faulty source of info.
    Last edited by Victor1234; 08-04-2008 at 16:19.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Composition hellenistic armies

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchhoplite View Post
    I've been looking too. I've found a lot of wargame army lists ranging from the early armies, like the Eumenid, to the more "exotic" Cyrenaican Greeks.

    I dont know how accurate these are but they *could* be used as a guideline. Here they are:

    http://fanaticus.org/DBA/armies/index.html

    And:

    http://www.dbaol.com/armies.htm
    Cheers, but are these accurate? If so, I love you more than can be put into words!

  9. #9
    Whatever Member konny's Avatar
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    Default AW: Composition hellenistic armies

    At least for the armies I know of, I would say that those are as accurate as they should be - for suggested army composition for wargamers that is, not correct historical OdBs of armies we often don't know very much about.
    Last edited by konny; 08-05-2008 at 10:58.

    Disclaimer: my posts are to be considered my private opinion and not offical statements by the EB Team

  10. #10

    Default Re: AW: Composition hellenistic armies

    Quote Originally Posted by konny View Post
    At least for the armies I know of, I would say that those are as accurate as they should be - for suggested army composition for wargamers that is, not correct historical OdBs of armies we often don't know very much about.
    Righto. Now all I needto find is the goddamned formations!

  11. #11
    Whatever Member konny's Avatar
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    Default AW: Composition hellenistic armies

    There is a generic formation that applies to most organized armies in history:

    - Spearmen and other heavy infantry in the centre
    - Missile units (and sometimes light cavalry) ahead of the main formation
    - Light units and cavalry on the wings

    Disclaimer: my posts are to be considered my private opinion and not offical statements by the EB Team

  12. #12

    Default Re: AW: Composition hellenistic armies

    Quote Originally Posted by konny View Post
    There is a generic formation that applies to most organized armies in history:

    - Spearmen and other heavy infantry in the centre
    - Missile units (and sometimes light cavalry) ahead of the main formation
    - Light units and cavalry on the wings
    Cheers. As thanks, have a Che Roriniho Biscuit of Excellence.

  13. #13
    Whatever Member konny's Avatar
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    Default AW: Composition hellenistic armies

    I have set up some armies with EB units using the DBA compostions. I think, the results are quite reasonable. (units in a line mean "either"; not all possible units for each class are listed)

    Early Karthagian


    Later Karthagian


    Getai/Thrakian


    Generic Eastern (Pontos, Armenia etc)


    KH early


    KH Eastern


    KH Later


    KH Western


    Ptolemaian


    Seleucide



    EDIT: And some more:

    Epeiros


    Armenia


    Makedonia


    Baktria/Indo-Greek


    Pontos (Hellenic)
    Last edited by konny; 08-05-2008 at 17:34.

    Disclaimer: my posts are to be considered my private opinion and not offical statements by the EB Team

  14. #14
    Member Member Dutchhoplite's Avatar
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    Default Re: Composition hellenistic armies

    Wow, looks good Konny :)
    I love the smell of bronze in the morning!

    Campaigns completed: Vanilla Seleucid, EB 1.2. Carthaginian, RSII Pergamon

  15. #15

    Default Re: AW: Composition hellenistic armies

    Quote Originally Posted by konny View Post
    I have set up some armies with EB units using the DBA compostions. I think, the results are quite reasonable. (units in a line mean "either"; not all possible units for each class are listed)
    Early Karthagian


    Later Karthagian


    Getai/Thrakian


    Generic Eastern (Pontos, Armenia etc)


    KH early


    KH Eastern


    KH Later


    KH Western


    Ptolemaian


    Seleucide



    EDIT: And some more:

    Epeiros


    Armenia


    Makedonia


    Baktria/Indo-Greek


    Pontos (Hellenic)
    Why do you always have to be so much better than anyone else Konny? Now, Formations, FIND!

    EDIT: I might edit these slightly so they suit more the limited Formations I have.
    Last edited by Che Roriniho; 08-05-2008 at 19:15.

  16. #16
    Member Member Dutchhoplite's Avatar
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    Default Re: Composition hellenistic armies

    Besides the one Konny mentioned i don´t think there are standard formations

    For example: at gabiene (315 BC) Antigonus massed his heavy Thracian cavalry, elephants, light infantry and skirmishers on his right and advanced against Eumenes, while refusing his ''center'' infantry and his very small force of light horse on his far left flank.

    So you could say that the Antigonid infantry actually formed his left flank ;)

    Eumenes basicly used the same formation...
    I love the smell of bronze in the morning!

    Campaigns completed: Vanilla Seleucid, EB 1.2. Carthaginian, RSII Pergamon

  17. #17

    Default Re: Composition hellenistic armies

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchhoplite View Post
    Besides the one Konny mentioned i don´t think there are standard formations

    For example: at gabiene (315 BC) Antigonus massed his heavy Thracian cavalry, elephants, light infantry and skirmishers on his right and advanced against Eumenes, while refusing his ''center'' infantry and his very small force of light horse on his far left flank.

    So you could say that the Antigonid infantry actually formed his left flank ;)

    Eumenes basicly used the same formation...
    Yeh, but I mean like the standard formation - The romans had the quincux, The Maks had the Alexandros Phalanx, but whatdid, for example, Qartadastim use?

  18. #18
    Whatever Member konny's Avatar
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    Default AW: Composition hellenistic armies

    Historical formations need not to be the best for a game like EB anyways. For example I get the best out of Camillan Romans when using the Triarii as a Hoplites Phalanx in the centre and the Hastati as flankers. Also playing the Romans I got very good results using somewhat Alexandrian tactics in Spain with a massive cavalry attack on one wing.

    EDIT: Charthagians used the Tactics of the army they had copied I would guess. That would be Greek Hoplite for the early army (of this is hardly anything known) and Successor style for the late army (yes, we all know about the exception at Cannae).
    Last edited by konny; 08-05-2008 at 22:01.

    Disclaimer: my posts are to be considered my private opinion and not offical statements by the EB Team

  19. #19

    Default Re: AW: Composition hellenistic armies

    Quote Originally Posted by konny View Post
    Historical formations need not to be the best for a game like EB anyways. For example I get the best out of Camillan Romans when using the Triarii as a Hoplites Phalanx in the centre and the Hastati as flankers. Also playing the Romans I got very good results using somewhat Alexandrian tactics in Spain with a massive cavalry attack on one wing.

    EDIT: Charthagians used the Tactics of the army they had copied I would guess. That would be Greek Hoplite for the early army (of this is hardly anything known) and Successor style for the late army (yes, we all know about the exception at Cannae).
    Thanks, you're more useful than a Brothel in an office. Have a Che Roriniho Biscuit of Excellence.

  20. #20
    Abou's nemesis Member Krusader's Avatar
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    Default Re: AW: Composition hellenistic armies

    Quote Originally Posted by Che Roriniho View Post
    Thanks, you're more useful than a Brothel in an office. Have a Che Roriniho Biscuit of Excellence.
    That's just text...now an image...that would be excellent.
    "Debating with someone on the Internet is like mudwrestling with a pig. You get filthy and the pig loves it"
    Shooting down abou's Seleukid ideas since 2007!

  21. #21

    Default Re: AW: Composition hellenistic armies

    Quote Originally Posted by Krusader View Post
    That's just text...now an image...that would be excellent.
    I'll get on it. Currently off for a Jog, then need to Carry on with my Manual project (v0.1 is in the works!)

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