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    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default A Catholic Case Against Obama

    This article sums up an anti-abortion attack on Obama quite well. The born-alive vote is exceptionally damning. I had no idea that Boxer voted in favor of it, I'm pleasantly suprised. At least we know where life begins and ends with her.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    A Catholic Case Against Barack
    By Patrick Buchanan
    Link

    In the Pennsylvania primary, Barack Obama rolled up more than 90 percent of the African-American vote. Among Catholics, he lost by 40 points. The cool liberal Harvard Law grad was not a good fit for the socially conservative ethnics of Altoona, Aliquippa and Johnstown.

    But if Barack had a problem with Catholics then, he has a far higher hurdle to surmount in the fall, with those millions of Catholics who still take their faith and moral code seriously.

    For not only is Barack the most pro-abortion member of the Senate, with his straight A+ report card from the National Abortion Rights Action League and Planned Parenthood. He supports the late-term procedure known as partial-birth abortion, where the baby's skull is stabbed with scissors in the birth canal and the brains are sucked out to end its life swiftly and ease passage of the corpse into the pan.

    Partial-birth abortion, said the late Sen. Pat Moynihan, "comes as close to infanticide as anything I have seen in our judiciary."

    Yet, when Congress was voting to ban this terrible form of death for a mature fetus, Michelle Obama was signing fundraising letters pledging that, if elected, Barack would be "tireless" in keeping legal this "legitimate medical procedure."

    And Barack did not let the militants down. When the Supreme Court upheld the congressional ban on this barbaric procedure, Barack denounced the court for denying "equal rights for women."

    As David Freddoso reports in his new best-seller, "The Case Against Barack Obama," the Illinois senator goes further than any U.S. senator has dared go in defending what John Paul II called the "culture of death."

    Thrice in the Illinois legislature, Obama helped block a bill that was designed solely to protect the life of infants already born, and outside the womb, who had miraculously survived the attempt to kill them during an abortion. Thrice, Obama voted to let doctors and nurses allow these tiny human beings die of neglect and be tossed out with the medical waste.

    How can a man who purports to be a Christian justify this?

    If, as its advocates contend, abortion has to remain legal to protect the life and health, mental and physical, of the mother, how is a mother's life or health in the least threatened by a baby no longer inside her -- but lying on a table or in a pan fighting for life and breath?

    How is it essential for the life or health of a woman that her baby, who somehow survived the horrible ordeal of abortion, be left to die or put to death? Yet, that is what Obama voted for, thrice, in the Illinois Senate.

    When a bill almost identical to the one Barack fought in Illinois, the Born Alive Infants Protection Act, came to the floor of the U.S. Senate in 2001, the vote was 98 to 0 in favor. Barbara Boxer, the most pro-abortion member of the Senate before Barack came, spoke out on its behalf:

    "Of course, we believe everyone should deserve the protection of this bill. ... Who could be more vulnerable than a newborn baby? So, of course, we agree with that. ... We join with an 'aye' vote on this. I hope it will, in fact, be unanimous."

    Obama says he opposed the Born Alive Infants Protection Act because he feared it might imperil Roe v. Wade. But if Roe v. Wade did allow infanticide or murder, which is what letting a tiny baby die of neglect or killing it outright amounts to, why would he not want that court decision reviewed and amended to outlaw infanticide?

    Is the right to an abortion so sacrosanct to Obama that killing by neglect or snuffing out of the life of tiny babies outside the womb must be protected if necessary to preserve that right?

    Obama is an abortion absolutist. "I could find no instance in his entire career," writes Freddoso, "in which he voted for any regulation or restriction on the practice of abortion."

    In 2007, Barack pledged that, in his first act as president, he will sign the Freedom of Choice Act, which would cancel every federal, state or local regulation or restriction on abortion. The National Organization for Women says it would abolish all restrictions on government funding of abortion.

    What we once called God's Country would become the nation on earth most zealously committed to an unrestricted right of abortion from conception to birth.

    Before any devout Catholic, Evangelical Christian or Orthodox Jew votes for Obama, he or she might spend 15 minutes in Chapter 10 of Freddoso's "Case Against Barack." For if, as Catholics believe, abortion is the killing of an unborn child, and participation in an abortion entails automatic excommunication, how can a good Catholic support a candidate who will appoint justices to make Roe v. Wade eternal and eliminate all restrictions on a practice Catholics legislators have fought for three decades to curtail?

    And which Catholic priests and prelates will it be who give invocations at Obama rallies, even as Mother Church fights to save the lives of unborn children whom Obama believes have no right to life and no rights at all?

    Copyright 2008, Creators Syndicate Inc.
    Page Printed from: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/art...st_barack.html at August 12, 2008 - 08:01:24 AM PDT


    Yes, I realize that the "culture of death" can be used to condemn the war in Iraq from a Catholic perspective, but that issue and it's support have not led to excommunication in the Church.
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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Catholic Case Against Obama

    It's Buchanan again!

    This isn't anything new, and it should be posted in the other (Election) thread as well.
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    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Catholic Case Against Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II View Post
    It's Buchanan again!

    This isn't anything new, and it should be posted in the other (Election) thread as well.
    You are probably right.
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    Default Re: A Catholic Case Against Obama

    Gah. I bluntly refuse to vote on abortion. The Republicans had 6 years of Pres+senate+House of Reps and accomplished almost nothing. They don't give a about abortion, they're just looking for votes.
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    Poll Smoker Senior Member CountArach's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Catholic Case Against Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by makaikhaan View Post
    Gah. I bluntly refuse to vote on abortion. The Republicans had 6 years of Pres+senate+House of Reps and accomplished almost nothing. They don't give a about abortion, they're just looking for votes.
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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Catholic Case Against Obama

    What's next? A 'vegetarian case against Obama', sponsored by Vegetarians Against Abortion?
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  7. #7

    Default Re: A Catholic Case Against Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff View Post
    This article sums up an anti-abortion attack on Obama quite well. The born-alive vote is exceptionally damning. I had no idea that Boxer voted in favor of it, I'm pleasantly suprised. At least we know where life begins and ends with her.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    A Catholic Case Against Barack
    By Patrick Buchanan
    Link

    In the Pennsylvania primary, Barack Obama rolled up more than 90 percent of the African-American vote. Among Catholics, he lost by 40 points. The cool liberal Harvard Law grad was not a good fit for the socially conservative ethnics of Altoona, Aliquippa and Johnstown.

    But if Barack had a problem with Catholics then, he has a far higher hurdle to surmount in the fall, with those millions of Catholics who still take their faith and moral code seriously.

    For not only is Barack the most pro-abortion member of the Senate, with his straight A+ report card from the National Abortion Rights Action League and Planned Parenthood. He supports the late-term procedure known as partial-birth abortion, where the baby's skull is stabbed with scissors in the birth canal and the brains are sucked out to end its life swiftly and ease passage of the corpse into the pan.

    Partial-birth abortion, said the late Sen. Pat Moynihan, "comes as close to infanticide as anything I have seen in our judiciary."

    Yet, when Congress was voting to ban this terrible form of death for a mature fetus, Michelle Obama was signing fundraising letters pledging that, if elected, Barack would be "tireless" in keeping legal this "legitimate medical procedure."

    And Barack did not let the militants down. When the Supreme Court upheld the congressional ban on this barbaric procedure, Barack denounced the court for denying "equal rights for women."

    As David Freddoso reports in his new best-seller, "The Case Against Barack Obama," the Illinois senator goes further than any U.S. senator has dared go in defending what John Paul II called the "culture of death."

    Thrice in the Illinois legislature, Obama helped block a bill that was designed solely to protect the life of infants already born, and outside the womb, who had miraculously survived the attempt to kill them during an abortion. Thrice, Obama voted to let doctors and nurses allow these tiny human beings die of neglect and be tossed out with the medical waste.

    How can a man who purports to be a Christian justify this?

    If, as its advocates contend, abortion has to remain legal to protect the life and health, mental and physical, of the mother, how is a mother's life or health in the least threatened by a baby no longer inside her -- but lying on a table or in a pan fighting for life and breath?

    How is it essential for the life or health of a woman that her baby, who somehow survived the horrible ordeal of abortion, be left to die or put to death? Yet, that is what Obama voted for, thrice, in the Illinois Senate.

    When a bill almost identical to the one Barack fought in Illinois, the Born Alive Infants Protection Act, came to the floor of the U.S. Senate in 2001, the vote was 98 to 0 in favor. Barbara Boxer, the most pro-abortion member of the Senate before Barack came, spoke out on its behalf:

    "Of course, we believe everyone should deserve the protection of this bill. ... Who could be more vulnerable than a newborn baby? So, of course, we agree with that. ... We join with an 'aye' vote on this. I hope it will, in fact, be unanimous."

    Obama says he opposed the Born Alive Infants Protection Act because he feared it might imperil Roe v. Wade. But if Roe v. Wade did allow infanticide or murder, which is what letting a tiny baby die of neglect or killing it outright amounts to, why would he not want that court decision reviewed and amended to outlaw infanticide?

    Is the right to an abortion so sacrosanct to Obama that killing by neglect or snuffing out of the life of tiny babies outside the womb must be protected if necessary to preserve that right?

    Obama is an abortion absolutist. "I could find no instance in his entire career," writes Freddoso, "in which he voted for any regulation or restriction on the practice of abortion."

    In 2007, Barack pledged that, in his first act as president, he will sign the Freedom of Choice Act, which would cancel every federal, state or local regulation or restriction on abortion. The National Organization for Women says it would abolish all restrictions on government funding of abortion.

    What we once called God's Country would become the nation on earth most zealously committed to an unrestricted right of abortion from conception to birth.

    Before any devout Catholic, Evangelical Christian or Orthodox Jew votes for Obama, he or she might spend 15 minutes in Chapter 10 of Freddoso's "Case Against Barack." For if, as Catholics believe, abortion is the killing of an unborn child, and participation in an abortion entails automatic excommunication, how can a good Catholic support a candidate who will appoint justices to make Roe v. Wade eternal and eliminate all restrictions on a practice Catholics legislators have fought for three decades to curtail?

    And which Catholic priests and prelates will it be who give invocations at Obama rallies, even as Mother Church fights to save the lives of unborn children whom Obama believes have no right to life and no rights at all?

    Copyright 2008, Creators Syndicate Inc.
    Page Printed from: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/art...st_barack.html at August 12, 2008 - 08:01:24 AM PDT


    Yes, I realize that the "culture of death" can be used to condemn the war in Iraq from a Catholic perspective, but that issue and it's support have not led to excommunication in the Church.
    You seem to be under the the impression that:

    1. Everyone who identifies them self a Catholic is against the rights of a women to choose.

    2. With all the other issues, abortion will be a overriding issue in on which a majority of people pin their decision.

    I don't believe either one is close to being true. People already knew Obama was pro-choice, so this does not change a thing.

    You really are
    Last edited by m52nickerson; 08-19-2008 at 22:43.
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  8. #8
    Relentless Bughunter Senior Member FactionHeir's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Catholic Case Against Obama

    In a close presidential race, it does not take convincing a majority to win.

    That said, its quite shocking what he supports without wavering, especially as he was quote today or very recently as saying that we will stand fast and not waver on his core positions. I take it this is one of his core positions as the rest changes a lot.
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    Poll Smoker Senior Member CountArach's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Catholic Case Against Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by FactionHeir View Post
    In a close presidential race, it does not take convincing a majority to win.

    That said, its quite shocking what he supports without wavering, especially as he was quote today or very recently as saying that we will stand fast and not waver on his core positions. I take it this is one of his core positions as the rest changes a lot.


    Don't you start too...
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    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Catholic Case Against Obama

    This is the most coherent criticism I've found this week of Obama at Saddleback and the Democratic dodge on the topic of abortion as a reasoned policy issue.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    The Democrats and the Abortion Wars

    Are Obama and Pelosi dodging the life-and-death question?
    George Weigel
    Newsweek Web Exclusive
    Updated: 8:38 PM ET Aug 25, 2008

    A few years ago, Richard Doerflinger, a pro-life Roman Catholic intellectual with decades of experience in the trenches of America's culture wars, was invited to debate the moral and legal status of the human embryo before a large class of Harvard undergraduates. During the course of the discussion, Doerflinger's Harvard faculty interlocutor drew a timeline of human biological development on the blackboard: conception, implantation, brain waves, viability, birth and so forth. His challenge to Doerflinger was to defend, in a nonarbitrary way and without reference to religious principles, the notion that society should recognize moral value and legal rights at any particular point along that line. If here, why here? If there, why there?

    After the class, as the conversation continued with a few students and the professor, Doerflinger took a piece of chalk and extended the timeline to the end of the blackboard, where he wrote "Tenure." The students laughed, and got the message. The only point along that continuum that wouldn't be arbitrary was the starting point—conception.

    Perhaps Doerflinger should send his extended timeline to the Democratic National Convention in Denver.

    Throughout this lengthy campaign, the Democratic Party has worked hard to present itself as the party of intellect, competence and moral seriousness. Yet it's off to a very rocky start in addressing the substance of the abortion issue—which remains, 35 years after Roe v. Wade, one of the most volatile in our public life. Talk this week by Democratic leaders about lowering the incidence of abortion in America will rightly be welcomed by pro-life Democrats, including the large number of pro-life African-American Democrats. But the recent public record has to make committed pro-lifers of both parties wonder just how serious the Democratic leadership is about engaging the abortion debate.

    At the Aug. 16 "Civil Forum on the Presidency" at Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, Calif., Sen. Barack Obama was asked by pastor Rick Warren, "At what point does a baby get human rights, in your view?" Obama quickly changed the subject to when life begins, and then demurred: "... whether you are looking at it from a theological perspective or a scientific perspective, answering that question with specificity ... is above my pay grade." Why, though? An embryology text widely used in American medical schools, "The Developing Human," is not so reticent about the science involved: "Human development begins at fertilization when a male gamete or sperm (spermatazoon) unites with a female gamete or oocyte (ovum) to produce a single cell—a zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell marked the beginning of each of us as a unique individual." That is the science. It's quite specific, and understanding the science here is surely not about the "pay grade" of a president who will be making public-policy decisions based on that science.

    As for theology, there are, obviously, theological disagreements on the moral question of abortion. But while a president is not a theological referee, a president ought to have some grasp of the basic philosophical issues that have been vigorously debated in the abortion wars over the past several decades; these, after all, are the issues that should inform public policy. For decades now, pro-life advocates have been arguing, on the basis of reason informed by science, that nothing human was ever anything other than human, and that nothing not human will ever become human. These are things we can know prior to our theological convictions (or lack thereof). Does Senator Obama disagree with these claims?

    There are also serious questions of political theory and governance at stake in the abortion wars. Pro-lifers have long argued that allowing the government to declare an entire class of human creatures—the unborn—outside the protection of the law is a danger for everyone (wherever they may be located on the Doerflinger timeline). Does Senator Obama agree that the abortion debate involves that first principle of justice which teaches that innocent life is inviolable and that the equal protection of the laws must extend to everyone, regardless of condition? Justice Byron White—President John F. Kennedy's sole appointment to the Supreme Court—described Roe v. Wade as an exercise in "raw judicial power." Does Senator Obama agree with Justice White that the Supreme Court overreached its authority in Roe v. Wade?

    At Saddleback, Senator Obama expressed his "respect" for the views of consistent pro-lifers because their conviction that "life begins at conception ... is a core issue of faith" for those voters. This, however, is another dodge. Yes, for some pro-lifers, obedience to religious authority is the source of their conviction. Yet to suggest, as Obama did, that the pro-life position rests on private (and thus inherently undebatable) religious intuitions is to have missed virtually the entirety of the substantive pro-life argument since 1973. Pro-lifers of both parties—some of them agnostic and atheists—have made genuinely public arguments, based on scientific knowledge, reason and democratic political theory. Judging from the evidence to date, the Democratic candidate for president has yet to engage those arguments seriously.

    Then there are the multiple confusions of House Speaker Nancy Pelosi. In her "Meet the Press" appearance Aug. 24, Pelosi was asked by Tom Brokaw whether she agreed with Senator Obama's statements on abortion at Saddleback. Pelosi, declaring herself an "ardent, practicing Catholic," told Brokaw that "this is an issue that I have studied for a long time"—and then got herself into a deep muddle, in which she seemed to confuse St. Augustine with St. Thomas Aquinas (neither of whom, in any case, knew anything about modern embryology); misrepresented the settled (and scientifically informed) judgment of the Catholic Church on when life begins by declaring it an open question, and concluded by suggesting that none of this really makes a difference, because what the scientists, theologians, and philosophers say "... shouldn't have an impact on a the woman's right to choose." The Speaker then misrepresented the legal impact of Roe v. Wade, arguing that the Supreme Court hadn't created a right to "abortion on demand"—which will come as news to those on both sides of the ongoing debates over partial-birth abortion and other late-term abortion procedures, parental- and spousal-notifications laws and regulatory oversight of abortion clinics.

    Democrats who had hoped to persuade a good number of evangelicals and Catholics to return to their traditional 20th-century political home in November 2008 cannot be very encouraged by such intellectual disarray on the part of their party's senior federal official. For more than three decades, the abortion license created by the high court in Roe v. Wade has been an important factor in determining American voting behavior—in more than a few instances, the decisive factor. Yet, judging by her performance on "Meet The Press" (which seemed to surprise the usually unflappable Tom Brokaw), the Democratic Speaker of the House of Representatives is as ill-informed on the scientific and legal facts involved in the abortion debate as she is of the teaching of the Catholic Church. Speaker Pelosi is, like most "ardent, practicing" Catholics, a great admirer of the late Pope John Paul II. Was John Paul wrong, one wants to ask Speaker Pelosi, when he wrote in the 1995 encyclical Evangelium Vitae [The Gospel of Life] that "abortion ... always constitutes a grave moral disorder, since it is the deliberate killing of an innocent human being"? Was he wrong when he further stated that this moral truth could be known by reason, and was thus a matter of grave concern to public policy?

    However far they may be below the pay grade of a pope, pro-life advocates deserve the respect of having their arguments taken seriously. Given the opportunity to do just that at Saddleback, Barack Obama opted for rhetorical finesse over substantive engagement; that choice may have done fatal damage to his capacity to peel evangelical and Catholic swing voters away from the now-tattered Republican coalition. Given a nationally televised opportunity to repair some of that damage, Nancy Pelosi, seemingly bereft of coherent ideas, could only fall back on the mantra of "choice." Appeals to Joe Biden's being a Catholic kid from hardscrabble Scranton, Pa., will not likely persuade many committed pro-life voters than the water is once again safe in the Democratic Party; Biden's NARAL ratings may not be as glowing as Obama's, but no serious pro-lifer thinks of the senator from Delaware as a pro-life legislator.

    The talking points developed for Democratic leaders appearing on the pre-convention talk shows stressed the economy, housing, jobs, and other "middle-class" issues. This suggests that Democratic strategists are discounting the life issues as major factors in 2008. Those strategists have been surprised before; they may be surprised again. In any case, the country deserves something more serious than what it has been given by the Democratic leadership on what has been, and remains, one of the defining issues of our time.
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    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Catholic Case Against Obama

    Sometimes you have to drop ideology and work on a tangible solution. The war was lost before either of us was even born. So we can sit here on our moral high ground and demand the situation be rectified or realize that we really dont have any ground to stand on. Much like adultery I find abortion morally wrong but for all practical purposes it should be legal
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    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Catholic Case Against Obama

    File me under "I don't get it." The Republicans had control of the Executive, Legislative and Judiciary, all at the same time, for six years. What did they do about abortion? Anyone?

    And yet this thread is all about how we dare not vote for the dusky Moor because he wouldn't fight abortion. Does this make any kind of sense?

    Look, if you want to operate in the real world, and not in absolutist fantasyland, then you need to focus on reducing abortions, not outlawing the procedure. Please note that "abstinence only" education led to a rise in unwanted pregnancies. Let's try to be practical about this issue, shall we?

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    The Usual Member Ice's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Catholic Case Against Obama

    The cool liberal Harvard Law grad was not a good fit for the socially conservative ethnics of Altoona, Aliquippa and Johnstown
    Well, I got that far in the article.



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    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Catholic Case Against Obama

    Oh, and now there are McCain people saying he doesn't want to overturn Roe v. Wade. Who knew?

    Going back to 1999, John McCain did an interview with the San Francisco Chronicle saying that overturning Roe v. Wade would not make any sense, because then women would have to have illegal abortions.

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