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  1. #1
    EBII Mod Leader Member Foot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Carthaginians speaks Hebrew?

    I'm not citing anyone, this isn't an argument. I'm posting a comment from correspondence between one of our team members (Shigawire) who works explicitly with voicemods for EB and one Dr Charles Krahmalkov. Shigawire made the decision for the team, I was relaying that information on, which we took as a basis for our position. So don't put shame on me, and don't jump to conclusions about who I am or what I do. If you disagree with our position, fair enough, put forward your 10 sources. Until then, shame on you for jumping on the bandwagon in such a disgraceful manner.

    As for Charles Krahmalkov, if you had read the link I gave you, you would know his academic history and that he is a current professor in this area (having written a number of books on the punic language). Now, I'm not defending him in the slightest, I no jackshit about this area, and I've never claimed otherwise. But even a quick Google search would have answered your question about whether he was writing in the 1800s or not.

    So, perhaps a better way to christen yourself on these forums isn't to attack an EB team member on false charges with half your post, particularly as the charges are without basis. You are more than welcome to disagree with our position, but do so with a little more finesse and with a little less haste then your previous post, if you would.

    I was just trying to be helpful for christ's sake. Next time I'll let someone else take the heat.

    Foot
    Last edited by Foot; 08-11-2008 at 00:17.
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    Stranger in a strange land Moderator Hooahguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Carthaginians speaks Hebrew?

    Quote Originally Posted by Foot View Post
    I'm not citing anyone, this isn't an argument. I'm posting a comment from correspondence between one of our team members (Shigawire) who works explicitly with voicemods for EB and one Dr Charles Krahmalkov. Shigawire made the decision for the team, I was relaying that information on, which we took as a basis for our position. So don't put shame on me, and don't jump to conclusions about who I am or what I do. If you disagree with our position, fair enough, put forward your 10 sources. Until then, shame on you for jumping on the bandwagon in such a disgraceful manner.

    As for Charles Krahmalkov, if you had read the link I gave you, you would know his academic history and that he is a current professor in this area (having written a number of books on the punic language). Now, I'm not defending him in the slightest, I no jackshit about this area, and I've never claimed otherwise. But even a quick Google search would have answered your question about whether he was writing in the 1800s or not.

    So, perhaps a better way to christen yourself on these forums isn't to attack an EB team member on false charges with half your post, particularly as the charges are without basis. You are more than welcome to disagree with our position, but do so with a little more finesse and with a little less haste then your previous post, if you would.

    I was just trying to be helpful for christ's sake. Next time I'll let someone else take the heat.

    Foot
    wre you talking to me or Bar_kochba?
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  3. #3
    EBII Mod Leader Member Foot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Carthaginians speaks Hebrew?

    Mostly Kochbar, but you also. Both of you assumed the worst of me, when I was simply supplying information. If you don't agree with what we've done we can talk about it, but insulting me without reason is not going to help either of you. However, its very difficult to get academicians to work with such a project as EB, so we are helpful for any correspondence we get. We cannot be experts or employ experts in every field, so if a Dr of an area we are interested in responds to a query we cannot then go and check the latest debate raging in that field.

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    Stranger in a strange land Moderator Hooahguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Carthaginians speaks Hebrew?

    ehm, i dont think the worst of you? what made you think that? it makes me sad to hear that you think that i do....
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  5. #5
    EBII Mod Leader Member Foot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Carthaginians speaks Hebrew?

    You agreed with Kochvar that I cited only one source in an argument, a shameful act, when a far more reasonable conclusion would be that I was actually passing on information that I had got elsewhere. I was hardly given the benefit of the doubt. However, your agreement was more of a off-hand comment so I don't really hold anything against you, but half of Kochvar's post was on me and my shameful behaviour, which I thought was a bit much.

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    Stranger in a strange land Moderator Hooahguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Carthaginians speaks Hebrew?

    no, you misunderstood- i agreed with him on the statement that citing only one source isnt much. never agreed with his entire argument....
    On the Path to the Streets of Gold: a Suebi AAR
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  7. #7
    VOXIFEX MAXIMVS Member Shigawire's Avatar
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    Default Re: Carthaginians speaks Hebrew?

    First of all, as Foot said, we accept all the help we can get! And Krahmalkov is THE expert in this field.
    He's the guy who excavated the ruins in Tripolitania giving us the Punic name for that province: "Syrthim." Instead of assuming he's some outdated 1800s scholar, just have a look on google, as already mentioned. Have a little look at his repertoire.

    What we did in EB's voicemod was to use Modern Hebrew as a base to build on, then we "Punified" the vocabulary by skimming through our dictionary, replacing words where applicable. And also accomodating whatever grammar rules we found differed in Punic to Modern Hebrew. As Kikosemmek ran through the words in the Phoenician-Punic dictionary, he noticed that the words were uncannily similar to Modern Hebrew, but in some instances they differed a great deal as well. I suppose the greatest difference is pronunciation - for which there are actually a number of historical clues.

    I have asked in total 3 experts though. One of them has, like Krahmalkov, also written a grammar book and dictionary on Phoenician:
    Mark A. McMenamin - his grammar book is 24 pages, dictionary is 37 pages.
    Krahmalkov - his grammar book is 300 pages, dictionary is 500 pages - with painfully detailed footnotes.
    Dr. William Fulco (no grammars or dictionaries)

    I have emailed with McMenamin, I asked him why his dictionaries were not as voluminous as Krahmalkov's dictionary and grammar. McMenamin replied that he had great respect for Krahmalkov, but that he did not have as much selfconfidence to do what Krahmalkov had done. Krahmalkov had reconstructed quite a bit of Punic by studying fragments of Neo-Punic poetry found on pottery. McMenamin stated that this was way over his head, and preferred to reduce the sheer volume of his work. Also, a sidenote, I had the nagging sensation that McMenamin was keen on making sales of his short books, rather than discuss.

    Another expert I emailed with was Dr. William Fulco, who helped Mel Gibson with the ancient languages in "The Passion of Christ." When Vin Diesel decided to work on an epic about Hannibal Barca, he asked Mel Gibson for professional directing advice. From Mel, Vin got into contact with Fulco. Fulco is now going to head the translation work on the Hannibal movie. Ancient Greek, Punic, Latin etc.. I mentioned Krahmalkov to Fulco, and Fulco stated exhuberantly that Krahmalkov was in his opinion clearly the best scholar in the field.

    Ok, so I'm "ashamed" I've only asked the opinions of 3 experts on Phoenician-Punic. Not exactly a whopping 10. But is this a dissertational thesis that we're writing here? In every single instance of implementing a culture's history and language into EB, we see some or other national grievance or controversy (contrived or not). In each case it's very difficult for us to take into account ALL the possible controversies between scholarly consensus and the respective culture's self-image. For example, we've had bouts with certain Greek jingoists because their national and cultural self-image was on a direct collision course with what the scholarly consensus was, and what the evidence suggested. No doubt this self-image was a product of indoctrination from an institutionalized educational system (lower/middle education). They were certainly confident in their point of view, yet they've been proven wrong time and again. I hope for your sake this criticism of your's is something more substantive than information taught in an institutionalized Israeli educational system (I take it that you're from there). However, the personalization of the grievance you exhibit, by claiming "shame" unto us, suggest that the grievance is wholly emotionally motivated. As you're reading this, you're probably sizzling inside, as you're contemplating how you're going to pound on me for daring to psychoanalyze you.

    Not only is your prostration of our "shame" indicative of your motivations, but it is also employed in your manner as a fruitless and demagogic trick; namely the appeal to emotional guilt. A logical fallacy. One of those logical fallacies that are disallowed in rational discourse. With this in mind, how can you expect anyone to take this particular sort of criticism seriously?
    I'm fairly confident Krahmalkov will be able to read between the lines of your demagoguery as he's reading a direct quote of your grievances in my correspondence. But there are indeed some objective arguments in what you say, and that's why I simply could not dismiss it out of hand. That is why I took the time to write to the professor. We will now be awaiting a response from him.

    I am prepared for Krahmalkov being proven wrong. But are you equally open-minded? If you are scientifically-minded individuals, you have to also be at least prepared for the eventuality that you could be proven wrong. What you may eventually need to do, is to find a scholar whose point of view does not correspond with Krahmalkov on this issue. Then you have the seeds for an objective and factual debate.
    Last edited by Shigawire; 08-12-2008 at 15:33.


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