Are Polybian Units better than Marian? Discussion about Stats

[QuintusSertorius]

Um, I've got 1.1 and the cost for cohors reformata is 1790 not 2700. Adding in the cost of 40 new men plus 1 point to morale it isn't far off. Also, I think there is a little debate as to what time the reformed cohorts should be considered professional. I believe the team went with post-augustan, with the marian mules being simply a larger part of the population being equipped by the state for war (as they couldn't be expected to do it for themselves anymore).

I'm no expert though.

Foot

Well, the very first "Mules" (the drafts of reinforcements for the Numidian War) were trained by Publius Rutilius Rufus, who even wrote a manual on the training of troops (which unfortunately hasn't survived).

[Foot]

Okay, we have a misunderstanding of the term. All militias were trained. Training does not equal professional. Professional is where there is no other occupation that hinders their service, as I am aware I believe that members of the roman team have stated that before the Augustan reforms the legions were largely (not entirely) disbanded after a campaign. Over time this would have course led to the same people being called up who would become better and better but we have the Evocata for that. I'm sure a roman team member would be able to answer better, however.

Foot

[QuintusSertorius]

Okay, we have a misunderstanding of the term. All militias were trained. Training does not equal professional. Professional is where there is no other occupation that hinders their service, as I am aware I believe that members of the roman team have stated that before the Augustan reforms the legions were largely (not entirely) disbanded after a campaign. Over time this would have course led to the same people being called up who would become better and better but we have the Evocata for that. I'm sure a roman team member would be able to answer better, however.

Foot

Training was different, though. Polybian soldiers were trained to maneuver at the manipular and legion level, not how to handle a sword and shield. It was assumed fathers, brothers, uncles and so on would be doing that away from campaign. Many men would already have experience of campaigning previously, because they were called up repeatedly.

Post-Marian troops were trained in everything they did, because it was no longer assumed that there would be male relatives to do the training. The point of the Evocata is that they're men who had signed on for the full term, and returned. Most men who were disbanded would actually be demobilised to farming colonies, not re-recruited.

However, many post-Marian units weren't disbanded for a long time, campaigns could last decades, and some units were never brought home. No they weren't fully professional, but they were no longer citizen levies like Polybian men were.

[Gaivs]

Well, the very first "Mules" (the drafts of reinforcements for the Numidian War) were trained by Publius Rutilius Rufus, who even wrote a manual on the training of troops (which unfortunately hasn't survived).

Well actually after Marius gained his first consulship he had to levy fresh troops. The Senate hoped he would lose his popular support after the resentment of levy, but anyway.. Marius levied enough troops to bring the current legions in Africa up to strength. After the African campaign, Marius disbanded his army and took over the troops from Rutilius Rufus that he had been training. Point is, the first mules were Marius' men he levied for the African campaign, as its common knowledge among Marius adaptations were his banning baggage train and pack mules. After all, they are called Marius' mules and not Rufus' mules for a reason.

[mcantu]

what is the break-down of the 22 defense the Cohors Reformata has? (armor, defense skill, shield...)

[konny]

Must be the missing greave.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The evidence suggests that a Marian unit could be levied, equipped and then shipped out in a matter of weeks. The Centurians were responsible for training and there was no formal manual, much like the American Army until the 1970's. It was generally reconned that it took 4 months to train a legionary so a fair bit of the more advanced stuff was done on campaign. The Evocata represent re-enlisted men, be it 5 or 20 years service. The long-standing units would be represented by Cohors Reformata with chevrons.

[Gaivs]

Cohors Reformata are lethal when you get a few chevrons, so just wait until they have fought a few battles and it will get easier and easier.

[mcantu]

the only possible issue i see is that the cohors reformata might be missing 1 point of armor based on the skin...