terrorists beware

[KarlXII]

You know, with the time spent with this trial, the first for Gitmo, we could've spent it on someone who, you know, actually killed people.

[PanzerJaeger]

So, a guy who worked for enemy n° 1 of the US gets sentenced by a US court and they expect the international community to believe that this was a "fair trial"?

Is the White House trying to tell me that there isn't even the slightest air of this court being biased?

Did they ever hear about in propria causa nemo iudex (no person can judge a case in which he or she is a party)?

They could at least have had the decency to let him be judged by an international court, like the International Criminal Court (but therefore, the US should ratify its founding treaty...). Than I might have been willing to believe that the guy was been given a fair trial.

I sooo want to comment on that but I fear it would drag the thread towards the monestary.

[BigTex]

So a good portion of US administration should go to jail for giving weapons to Saddam? Guilty by association. If I've learned something from Tribesy here, that's when to say "bollox!"...

Comparing cold relations during proxy wars to a mad man's driver/bodyguard? Sorry, but that's a leap. You are completely disregarding prime motives during the cold war. The US administration was also removed by several levels of assiociation to what was going on compared to this man who was directly paid and worked directly for bin laden.

But don't let me interrupt here. Please let me hear how this man, a driver for a sociopathic terrorist, is compareable to US relations during the cold war.

Is life a fair sentence? Hell, he even said he was in it for the money.

So he was in it for the money? So that makes working for a terrorist organization ok? Blood money is a double edged sword, and this man just got stabbed by it. He has none of my sympathy, nor any of my concern. Sorry you gambled with your life and you got cuaght.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Lefties when a man's house is seized because he didn't have a license plate on his van in his driveway: It's the law and it's fair.

Lefties when bin Laden's Yemeni driver/bodyguard in Afghanistan (ie the crap about being a poor Afghan with a hungry family means nothing) is sentenced to jail: Oh noes! How unfair!



CR

[Husar]

Well, I think if he knew he was driving a wanted terrorist around then he had to see such a sentence coming if caught and has only himself to blame, if being the lookout for some rapist soldiers is wrong then being the driver of a wanted terrorist is just as wrong because it is supportive of the crimes commited by the "worse" ciminals.

[KarlXII]

I have a problem with the possible sentence he is facing, and that's life imprisonment. I also have a problem with the fact they did charge him (but did not convict him) with conspiracy in the 9/11 attacks. Material aid to terrorists is supplying money, RPG's, AK-47's, not driving Osama around. I believe he did it for the money.

[Tribesman]

The only problem I have with this is that its taken so long and all they have managed so far is to convict a nobody , though I have heard they may be close to convicting both his chef and manicurist but it appears his tailor may have cut a deal .
Oh and the other problem which is more to do with the whole "justice" of this "legal" framework , the statement that even if aquitted of all charges he could still have been held in prison indefinately.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Oh, I'll be obscure and throw in a quote from an Islamic Networking Site

Brother from Nigeria:

I am a 28 year old bother upon the qeedah of ahlul sunna wal jamaah.People describe me as easygoing,friendly and understanding.My intrests are Islam,reading,fiqh,Jihad and fighting i the cause of Allah, history, martialarts, mountains,computers,gadgets,internet,horse back riding,Driving fast bikes,current affairs, brainstorming, science,traveling,financial/investing,camping,walking,
jogging,and hiking and spending quality time with my mum ,my family and truest friends.

I will be living in early in 2007 to the arabian penuisala.I have alawys had a loveaffair with Horse

I am searching for a muslimah that has the right aqeedah,a good heart especially to her muslim brethren,good adab,easygoing,understanding,loves kids,compassionte,and a sweet romantic woman as well.
She should not be afraid of the blame of the blamers.Basically a devout muslimah.

Jazakumullahu khairun.

Why is it relevant? Because I think this is basically the kind of guy that was convincted in our trial. A Jihadist, sure. An adventurer. A small time Islamist with a 56k internet, a Koran, and a grudge.

But seven years, two wars, torture camps*, and trillions of dollars - and this is what the US administration has to show for it's effort? A second rate adventurer?



* Not prisons. Not detention camps. Torture camps.

The White House said the trial was fair and looked forward to more tribunals.

If I were the White House I'd close Gitmo if only to save me from further embarrasment like this.

[HoreTore]

He was not "legally bound" to drive a terrorist around, so your logical leap didn't quite make it.

This isn't really anything new. If you're employed by a criminal, you may be subject to litigation. There are lessons to be learned here somewhere....

Right. I assume the Enron executives had personal drivers too. It's your opinion that they should be sentenced too, right?

[PanzerJaeger]

I will be living in early in 2007 to the arabian penuisala.I have alawys had a loveaffair with Horse

You left out some bolding.

Seriously though, I agree with you*. This guy was a low level nobody. That doesn't mean that he doesn't deserve what he got.

*Except on the torture camps..

But seven years, two wars, torture camps*, and trillions of dollars - and this is what the US administration has to show for it's effort? A second rate adventurer?

To our credit, we have eliminated much of Al Q outright. They can't seem to keep a PR guy more than a few months..

Also, I believe this was essentially a trial run to set precedents and such. More cases will be forthcoming.

Right. I assume the Enron executives had personal drivers too. It's your opinion that they should be sentenced too, right?

You're comparing Enron executives to Osama bin Laden? Really?

In any event, if one of their drivers could be proven to have known that the execs were planning on cheating the shareholders and did nothing, he may be liable on some level.

[LittleGrizzly]

Fish & Griz -

A) I'm surprised that both of you would be so willing to work for a terrorist, financial difficulties or not. Apart from the leering eye of the ever watchful Predator Drone, one must make some very objectionable moral compromises to justify working for such a man. I'm not sure your assumptions about the man's financial status or motives are correct, either.

Im not sure of the state of the yemeni economy or its average citizens but seen as $99 a month is a damn good wage outside of any first world country i would assume it's still a hell of a lot of money, the moral objections are not really much more than working with any goverment that works with saddam type dictators at the moment, hell my goverment has plenty of friends in dark places who would happily kill far more than 3,000 of thier own people and plenty of drivers who take them around whilst making these decisions, i don't see american lives as any more important than other nationalitys lives and i don't see terrorism as any worse than a dictator using goverment power to kill his own. Sinn Fein has had driver(s) in the past, we don't seem to have gone after them..... If i was Irish and in need of a job and offered well above usual wages to be sinn fien's driver, i would do it, i imagine the situation would seem very similar to a middle easterner working for Osama pre 9/11

It may be morally questionable but so is a huge amount of things western goverments are involved in, but that is ok as were the good guys right ? and as we have declared them as the bad guys any punishments we hand down are just...


B) Moral equivalencies seldom make good arguments. Trying to compare working for the vast expanse that is the US Federal Government to personally driving around a man whose immediate goals, and the goals of his organization, consisted entirely of plotting and executing terrorist attacks against civilians just doesn't work.

I fail to see why the moral equivelance isn't valid here, the only difference i see is that AQ have been declared bad guys by america, the nasty people we still work with have yet to be declared bad guys, so this man has been charged because he works for someone america declared a bad guy, much worse people are allowed of scott free or worse have goods and money exchanged as they are not declared bad guys, but easily visible by everyone else as bad guys... besides there is the example of terrorist groups in Ireland, thier drivers haven't been handed down life sentences, or forced to suffer years of torture in some camp, the only difference i see is one involves irish citizens and uk goverment, other one involves middle eastern citizens and american goverment...

This man made several unfortunate choices that led him to be made into an example. They were his choices to make, though.

I think just being in Gauntanamo for a few years is more than enough torture for any crime he did commit

[ICantSpellDawg]

[B]
I think just being in Gauntanamo for a few years is more than enough torture for any crime he did commit

Torture? Any crime?

[LittleGrizzly]

Torture?

You know... waterboarding and the like.... or enhanced interigation as i believe your administration likes to call it... pretty words make it sound so much better....

Any crime?

You know... like driving....

maybe i should clarify the any crime one, i don't think anyone should be tortured, whether they deseve it or not is questionable but i think usually not....

Assuming he was directly involved in planning and actually helped (by more than driving) the attacks of 9/11 he would probably deserve his life sentence (depending on extent of involvment of course)

The way i see it the guy caught a lucky break and got a very well paid job but because it happened to be for the wrong bad guy he gets tortured for years and a life sentence at the end of the torture, i doubt he thought any more on it than Bush's driver wondering how many iraqis have died because of his war, i see both men as morally questionable Osama is obviously the worse guy but bush has caused far more deaths.... so why should osamas driver be any more accountable than bush's...

[ICantSpellDawg]

Torture?

You know... waterboarding and the like.... or enhanced interigation as i believe your administration likes to call it... pretty words make it sound so much better....

Any crime?

You know... like driving....

Did he claim to have been water boarded? I've read that he was "sexually humiliated" by females, but I can't find out what that actually means. Solitary confinement and sleep deprivation? Boo-Hoo. He knowingly aided a genocidal terrorist in exchange for money. Should he have expected free lollipops?

[LittleGrizzly]

Did he claim to have been water boarded?

I don't know, i would assume any methods available to enhance (such a pretty word) the interigation would be used, even if not waterboarding im fairly sure they would have used some of thier less savoury methods on him....

[ICantSpellDawg]

Did he claim to have been water boarded?

I don't know, i would assume any methods available to enhance (such a pretty word) the interigation would be used, even if not waterboarding im fairly sure they would have used some of thier less savoury methods on him....

So you are assuming; and in your assumptions you are maintaining that he has already received enough punishment. Cool.

I just wanted to make sure that I understood what you were doing.

[LittleGrizzly]

So you are assuming; and in your assumptions you are maintaining that he has already received enough punishment. Cool.

I just wanted to make sure that I understood what you were doing.

If saddam were to have someone locked in a prison which is infamous for him torturing people in how big a leap of logic would it be to assume that the prisnor is being tortured ?

Gauntanamo is infamous throughout the world and its torture methods well known and defended by the administration, and put in place to deal with terrorists, which is exactly what they think this guy is, i would also assume an egg dropped from any great hieght would break upon contact with the floor and im assuming the world won't end tommorow....

The assumption i think you could however question is the one of his limited involvment, with a lack of other evidence, available to us here at the .org, i have been unable to decide whether the american goverment has other evidence or whether this is done soley because he was Osama's driver, i have decided to approach the issue as if it was done soley because he drove for Osama this is the bigger assumption, but has been made based on a lack of evidence saying otherwise....

Out of interest i remember some american company sent over people to try and do a deal with the Taliban to build a pipeline through afghanastan, as it happens the deal didn't work outbut if it had would these guys be hauled into gauntanamo through the guilt by association train of thought ?

or as rich non-muslim americans would they be given the benefit of the doubt ?

[Craterus]

If it helps, I'd be any "sociopath's" driver if the price was right. And the right price is lower than you think.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

The whole "what would I do" question and debate is irrelevant. I would consider being a driver for someone who offered me a few million (I value my life more though), but that doesn't make it right.

[LittleGrizzly]

If it helps, I'd be any "sociopath's" driver if the price was right. And the right price is lower than you think.

Thats what i thought when panzer mention $1,000,000. the $99 a month sounded pretty sweet to me, us unemployed can't afford to be picky ya know...

Edit: I think the whole what would i do has some bearing on the subject, as he could be any guy who just happened to see a very well paid oppurtunity come up and ignored the fact it was for a less than wholesome character, it should at the very least be taken into account when sentencing, that the nicest guy in the world could have wandered into that job....

[Craterus]

What was the guy supposed to do? Quit the job? Drive him off a cliff? I think not turning up would probably have been a bad idea.

Personally, I think the US is punishing this guy for their lack of any real progress in finding Bin Laden so they've taken the next best thing and slapped it with a punitive and completely unjustified sentence to make it look like they're actually achieving something in their war on terror.

[Xiahou]

Wasn't this the guy that was transporting surface to air missiles in his car when he was caught at a checkpoint? Excuse me if I don't buy the "He was just an innocent victim" excuse.

Did he claim to have been water boarded? I've read that he was "sexually humiliated" by females, but I can't find out what that actually means. Solitary confinement and sleep deprivation? Boo-Hoo. He knowingly aided a genocidal terrorist in exchange for money. Should he have expected free lollipops?

Right, I've seen no evidence nor even the accusation that he was waterboarded or anything of the like. And, had he been, any confessions gained would've been inadmissible- the judge in the case threw out several statements made by Hamdan that he determined to be coerced.

I have a problem with the possible sentence he is facing, and that's life imprisonment. I also have a problem with the fact they did charge him (but did not convict him) with conspiracy in the 9/11 attacks. Material aid to terrorists is supplying money, RPG's, AK-47's, not driving Osama around. I believe he did it for the money.

To the first part, I don't believe he's likely to see a life sentence- I'd bet more like 20 years.... which I guess in some countries is considered a life sentence, but no by US standards. To the second part, he did provide material support and was convicted for it- see my opening statement.

[LittleGrizzly]

Wasn't this the guy that was transporting surface to air missiles in his car when he was caught at a checkpoint?

Right now this is something, transporting such missles for aq is clearly a crime that should be punished

Right, I've seen no evidence nor even the accusation that he was waterboarded or anything of the like.

When you take someone to a camp where the american goverment have pushed to be allowed enhanced interigation, what do you expect people to think, the american goverment made this mess for themselves by allowing such methods and calling them legal, i would assume anyone taking to one of saddam torture dungeons was tortured like any sensible person, i would also assume anyone taken to an american torture camp was tortured... like any sensible person...

the judge in the case threw out several statements made by Hamdan that he determined to be coerced.

So the judge also believes enhanced methods were used ? or were they coerced through legal means, people seem to be getting annoyed with all my assumptions so ill wait for an answer before i go off on a rant here...

To the first part, I don't believe he's likely to see a life sentence- I'd bet more like 20 years.... which I guess in some countries is considered a life sentence, but no by US standards.

It is hard to know what is meant by life sentence, for the rest of his life did seem too much (before the info about the missles which ill assume is correct....)

[PBI]

When you take someone to a camp where the american goverment have pushed to be allowed enhanced interigation, what do you expect people to think, the american goverment made this mess for themselves by allowing such methods and calling them legal, i would assume anyone taking to one of saddam torture dungeons was tortured like any sensible person, i would also assume anyone taken to an american torture camp was tortured... like any sensible person...

This is the problem really, with the US administration's relaxed attitude to torture it has forever destroyed the legitimacy of its war on terror. I can no more accept at face value the assurances that torture was not used than I can accept Mugabe's assurances that his elections are fair.

That said, it seems pretty clear the guy was a member of Al Qaeda. And let's be clear, if I was to agree to do work for a criminal organisation for no better reason than because it was well payed I should expect to go to prison if caught. The problem is simply that it's hard to see how the trial can be fair.

sleep deprivation? Boo-Hoo.

Let's be quite clear about this: Sleep deprivation is torture, and is defined as such under international law. If you do it long enough, it will cause psychological damage and eventually death.

[Andres]

Just a random thought:

Let's assume there's indisputable proof that the US committed war crimes in a recent past (for the sake of convenience: e.g. torture).

Will Mister Bush's driver also be sentenced to life time imprisonment?



But let's stick to the topic at hand and what's most relevant for the international community (the Org is in fact a mini-international community).

Lefties when a man's house is seized because he didn't have a license plate on his van in his driveway: It's the law and it's fair.

Lefties when bin Laden's Yemeni driver/bodyguard in Afghanistan (ie the crap about being a poor Afghan with a hungry family means nothing) is sentenced to jail: Oh noes! How unfair!

You're comparing apples with oranges...

In the first case the culprit was a US citizen living in the US and thus falling under US law.

In this case, we're talking about war crimes in an international conflict.

a) The court judging over this man should have been an international court (like the International Criminal Court, which founding treaty the US administration still hasn't ratified); b) the law applicable in this case should have been international law and international law only, not US law.

The US is involved as a party in this dispute and shouldn't be the judge in nor make the rules for this lawsuit (nemo iudex in propria causa, a long since established principle in law).

If an international court applying international legislation in this case would sentence the man to life time imprisonment, than, I, as an unbiased, non-US citizen and thus representative for the international community, would have far less difficulties to accept this judgement.

That's all

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Oh, and the whole Left/Right thingy found it's origins in 1791. I don't like being labelled, but if you insist on putting a (somewhat anachronistic) label on me, I'd prefer to be called caveman instead of "lefty"

[HoreTore]

You're comparing Enron executives to Osama bin Laden? Really?

In any event, if one of their drivers could be proven to have known that the execs were planning on cheating the shareholders and did nothing, he may be liable on some level.

They're both criminals aren't they?

But proven to know something? Was OBL's driver proven to know anything? You really think 9/11 was told to everyone who wanted to know about it? And anyway, what on earth could he have done if he found out something? That is, what could he have done without ending up with a bullet in the head within the hour...

[HoreTore]

Did he claim to have been water boarded? I've read that he was "sexually humiliated" by females, but I can't find out what that actually means. Solitary confinement and sleep deprivation? Boo-Hoo. He knowingly aided a genocidal terrorist in exchange for money. Should he have expected free lollipops?

Right. If this is the attitude of the conservatives in general, I fear for the world.

[Tribesman]

Also, I believe this was essentially a trial run to set precedents and such.

Yes and did you notice one precedent that was set ?
So what are they now going to do with that Canadin who they were charging with murder ?
The judge said killing an American soldier in Afghanistan is not murder so does that mean after all those years in detention the Canadian walks free ?
Oh silly me I forgot , not bringing charges or not securing a conviction on charges doesn't mean that people do not remain in custody indefinately .
Yay justice .

[Fragony]

This is wrong. A driver is just a driver no matter who he drives around.

[Husar]

Just a random thought:

Let's assume there's indisputable proof that the US committed war crimes in a recent past (for the sake of convenience: e.g. torture).

Will Mister Bush's driver also be sentenced to life time imprisonment?

If the driver knew that Bush was directly responsible for those war crimes and was in it for the money, yes, otherwise:

You're comparing apples with oranges...