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Thread: The Uncaring Tyranny of Government

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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default The Uncaring Tyranny of Government

    A man in Wisconsin is going to have his house, which he owns with no money owed on a loan, foreclosed on by the city because he parked a van without license plates in his driveway:
    http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=779234
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Milwaukee man faces foreclosure because he didn’t pay parking fine
    The ticket went unpaid for four years, eventually amounting to $2,600 in fines
    By RAQUEL RUTLEDGE

    Peter Tubic ignored a $50 parking fine in 2004, and on Monday, it cost him his $245,000 house.

    Among other health issues he's dealing with, Peter Tubic has had headaches dealing with his van, which is parked in his driveway without a license plates. He faces foreclosure on his home and is in a dispute with the city over citations he received for the van's lack of plates.
    Nitty Gritty
    A Milwaukee man received a $50 fine for parking a van with no license plates in his driveway. He ignored the ticket for more than four years, and last week the city foreclosed on his house.

    In what city officials believe is the first case of its kind, the city foreclosed on Tubic's house on W. Verona Court after repeated attempts to collect the fine - which over the years had escalated to $2,600 - had failed.

    "Our goal isn't to acquire parcels," said Jim Klajbor, special deputy city treasurer. "Our goal is to just collect taxes. . . . It is only as a last resort that we would pursue . . . foreclosure."

    Milwaukee County Circuit Judge Richard Sankovitz technically stayed the judgment to give Tubic one last chance to explain why he hasn't paid or even responded, but Sankovitz ruled in favor of the city's foreclosure.

    "The city was entitled to a judgment," Sankovitz told Public Investigator on Thursday. "There hadn't been an answer to the complaint."

    Tubic takes the blame for disregarding the 15 or more notices he received seeking payment and warning of the pending foreclosure on the house, which was fully paid off, but says he had good reason.

    He was physically and psychologically unable to handle the situation, he says.

    According to the Social Security Administration, Tubic, 62, has been disabled since 2001. He has been diagnosed with psychological disorders that limit his "ability to understand, remember and carry out detailed instructions," according to documents from the administration.

    In addition he suffers from chronic pain caused by degenerative diseases of the knees and spine, as well as chronic respiratory disease, diabetes and obesity, among other ailments.

    In several lengthy conversations with the P.I. Team spanning two weeks, Tubic frequently grunted in pain and broke down in tears.

    "They're trying to take my house away for a parking violation," Tubic said. "I know it was my own fault for letting it drag on, I've been under mental duress. I haven't been able to handle this."

    Janine Geske, a former Wisconsin Supreme Court justice and law professor at Marquette University, called the case a human tragedy and an example of how people can fall through the cracks in the system.

    "It seems like a drastic remedy," Geske said of the city's foreclosure. "But on the other hand the city has to enforce its zoning laws. I don't fault the city for that.

    "It's a shame someone didn't intervene to help him. . . . It would be nice if someone who worked for government would take the time and say 'let's look at this and see if we're doing the right thing.' . . . It would be nice if they would remember the human factor here."

    Tubic first got the fine for parking his Ford E150 with no license plates in the driveway of the home, which belonged to his parents at the time . The radiator had broken and Tubic couldn't get his plates renewed unless the van passed an emissions test. He didn't have the money to make the repair and had more pressing worries, he said.

    His father was suffering from dementia. His mother was battling cancer, and he was their live-in caretaker. He needed to shop, cook, clean, maintain the house and tend to his parents' needs.

    The van repair could wait, he thought.

    Then a man from the city showed up and told him otherwise. It was February 2004. Tubic would have to move the van or get license plates for it within 30 days, per city zoning codes, the man said. Somebody had complained.

    Several days later Tubic's dad died. Tubic was overwhelmed, he said.

    "It was a combination of things financial and emotional, my caregiving role, all heaped themselves on me at the wrong time," he said. "I still don't function well."

    Month after month the city Department of Neighborhood Services sent an inspector to the house to see if the van had moved or had license plates. Each time a new fee was assessed. And a letter was sent to Tubic's home.

    At no time did Tubic call or write to object or explain his circumstances, city officials said. So the bureaucratic cog kept turning.

    Tubic's $50 fine escalated to $1,475, and after it was clear he wasn't going to respond, the city filed a tax lien. While Tubic paid the property taxes, he never paid the $1,475 for the zoning violation. With interest and penalties, he owed $2,645 before the city foreclosed on Monday.

    Ronald Roberts, a code enforcement manager with the Department of Neighborhood Services, said the zoning code that prohibits people from parking unlicensed vehicles in their driveways is aimed at keeping residential properties from looking like junkyards.

    The city issues about 1,500 fines for such "nuisance" violations - which also include illegally placed trash - every year. Many are for repeat inspections.

    "Put yourself in the position of the neighbors," Roberts said.

    Turns out in this case the neighbors weren't the ones to complain. Tubic had not been getting along with his brother, and his brother made the call. His brother, Jovon Tubic, said he called at the request of their mother, according to a letter from Jovon to Peter Tubic.

    "One day in a very bad mood, Mom told me to get rid of the cars in the driveway right away," he wrote.

    Peter Tubic, who ran unsuccessfully for the 97th District state assembly seat in 1996 and again in 1998, said he tried to explain to city inspectors that this was an internal family dispute but that inspectors "didn't want to hear it."

    "If a violation exists, a violation exists," Roberts said. "We're going to enforce a violation.

    "If someone says, 'I'm dealing with a death,' we're going to be reasonable and give them a 30-day extension," he said. "But $1,475, that's a lot of months mourning - not to be insensitive."

    Roberts noted that every notice sent to Tubic had clearly written instructions on how to contest the fines.

    Roberts said inspectors were not aware of Tubic's mental health issues. When contacted by the P.I. Team before the foreclosure, city officials appeared split over how to handle the case.

    "If you're telling me we had a mentally anguished individual and that inspectors made no attempts to get at that, that can be considered," Roberts told P.I. "There will have to be some serious evidence. But if we were . . . deaf to that point, I would be willing to reconsider some of those fees."
    Not much left to do

    Don Schaewe, supervisor of the city's nuisance section, said he recently spoke with Tubic and that Tubic "provided a whole lot of excuses as to why he didn't comply."

    "At this point," Schaewe said. "There's really not too much that would allow us to reverse those charges."

    A court hearing is scheduled for Sept. 11. If the city retains ownership of the house, Tubic can remain there as a renter until the house is sold, said Andrea Rowe Richards, spokeswoman for the Department of City Development. After that, the new homeowners can decide if they want to continue renting out the house.

    Tubic said he set aside $2,600 in an escrow account "to protect the estate in case I die" but didn't want to use it to pay for the parking violation.

    Judge Sankovitz called the case a shame and said it demonstrates the need for judges to have authority to appoint attorneys for people involved in civil litigation.

    "If you were a criminal, we'd take care of the whole problem for you, get you an attorney," he said. "But if you're involved in civil litigation - in jeopardy of losing your house or your family . . . what we do is make you go out and find your own attorney.

    "If we gave people the help they needed near the beginning of their problem, their problems wouldn't snowball the way they do."


    Because the city busy-bodies wouldn't let unlicensed vehicles be parked in driveways (and because they are obviously morons without empathy for the peasants), the man is going to lose his house.

    I cannot fathom how people view more government as the answer to solutions.

    CR
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    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Cool Re: The Uncaring Tyranny of Government

    If enough voters become aware, and government becomes aware that they are aware. Then the government of the day will put pressure on the civil service, they will make sure the pressure is seen and that their voting bloc stays.
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    Default Re: The Uncaring Tyranny of Government

    A man in Wisconsin is going to have his house, which he owns with no money owed on a loan, foreclosed on by the city because he parked a van without license plates in his driveway:
    No , the man was going to be punished for ignoring 4 years of requests for payment .
    Unless of course there is an intervention before the 11th of next month ...wow there is an intervention already that was quick , wasn't that nice of the judge to put in the delay on foreclosure due to special circumstances to allow for intervention .
    Why didn't you go for the other story Rabbit , the local authorities taking someones house away because their tennants are a pain and they havn't done anything to sort their nasty tennants out ?
    Its tyranny I tell ya tyranny , I am outraged .

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    Default Re: The Uncaring Tyranny of Government

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit View Post

    I cannot fathom how people view more government as the answer to solutions.

    CR


    Judge Sankovitz called the case a shame and said it demonstrates the need for judges to have authority to appoint attorneys for people involved in civil litigation.

    "If you were a criminal, we'd take care of the whole problem for you, get you an attorney," he said. "But if you're involved in civil litigation - in jeopardy of losing your house or your family . . . what we do is make you go out and find your own attorney.

    "If we gave people the help they needed near the beginning of their problem, their problems wouldn't snowball the way they do."

    Like this?

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    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Uncaring Tyranny of Government

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribesman View Post
    No , the man was going to be punished for ignoring 4 years of requests for payment .
    Unless of course there is an intervention before the 11th of next month ...wow there is an intervention already that was quick , wasn't that nice of the judge to put in the delay on foreclosure due to special circumstances to allow for intervention .
    Why didn't you go for the other story Rabbit , the local authorities taking someones house away because their tennants are a pain and they havn't done anything to sort their nasty tennants out ?
    Its tyranny I tell ya tyranny , I am outraged .
    Haha. Who would have thought that Tribesman would defend unreasonable villainy? The man didn't put a license plate on his van while it was in his mothers driveway. His brother thought the authorities could convince him to do it, so he alerted them.

    They initially gave him a small ticket that turned into a massive one and eventually converted itself into a lien on the house that his parents left him. He is suggesting that he has had mental and physical problems for a long time, but the State doesn't seem to care one iota.

    Long story short - the government is taking this man's house because he didn't have a license on his van sitting in his driveway. He wasn't driving the van and the neighbors never complained, but the government believes that it is equitable to take his house for the offense.

    Dress it up with red tape and legalities if you'd like, but the reality is that they have taken the home of a disabled man over a bs ticket.

    Just when I thought private industry was a crap heap I started dealing with government organizations. It is unbelievable how little gets done and how little the employees care about other people.
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    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Uncaring Tyranny of Government

    Quote Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff View Post
    Long story short - the government is taking this man's house because he didn't have a license on his van sitting in his driveway. He wasn't driving the van and the neighbors never complained, but the government believes that it is equitable to take his house for the offense.
    Yup, that's what it boils down to. Ridiculous.
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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Uncaring Tyranny of Government

    Kinda scary how a disgrunted civil worker can do that to you. There really isn't that much difference between normal organised crime and the governherd, you have the right to remain silent and pay protectionmoney.

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    Default Re: The Uncaring Tyranny of Government

    What a pile of crap , they are not taking his home for having a unlicenced van , thay are seeking redemption of a debt by sale of assets .
    Boo hoo look at what the evil government is doing ....bollox it is no different than if he hadn't paid his local or state taxes , its no different from it he hadn't paid his credit cards bills .
    The only difference in this case is that the judge had granted extra time for intervention due to the circumstances and the intervention has come very quickly from the local government .
    None of which even goes anywhere near the fact that he had the money anyway and could have chosen to pay at any time but didn't want to .
    Simple case , pay your debts or have that debt reclaimed by siezure and sale of your assets .
    Tyranny of government ....bollox .

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    Liar and Trickster Senior Member Andres's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Uncaring Tyranny of Government

    How sad this story may be, why didn't he just pay the 50 $ fine? If he's lying to the press about his "condition" to cover up his own stupidity then I have no sympathy.

    However, if the man is indeed disabled and not in a condition to manage his own finances, then why did nobody help him?

    And I'm not pointing fingers at the government. No, I blame the brother. Instead of acting childish by calling the police to get his brother fined, he should have helped him out while he was taking care of their parents.

    If the brother would have helped him out by taking care of the parents together with him, then he would have noticed the mental illness (or depression or temporary state of not being able to handle his own affairs, whatever it is/was he is/was suffering from) and, if he would have been a good brother, he would have made sure that his bills were getting paid in time or that a professional would have taken care of him.

    Tribesman is right, the government is doing what they are supposed to do: making sure that debts are payed.

    This story is not as simple as "evil government takes house from poor guy", it's more "man prefers to act as a instead of helping his parents and disabled brother".
    Last edited by Andres; 08-05-2008 at 12:48.
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    Default Re: The Uncaring Tyranny of Government

    And I'm not pointing fingers at the government. No, I blame the brother. Instead of acting childish by calling the police to get his brother fined, he should have helped him out while he was taking care of their parents.
    Perhaps he was annoyed that his brother was inheriting the property .

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    Liar and Trickster Senior Member Andres's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Uncaring Tyranny of Government

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribesman View Post
    Perhaps he was annoyed that his brother was inheriting the property .
    Maybe if he would have been there for his parents, like his brother, he would have gotten his share...
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    Dragonslayer Emeritus Senior Member Sigurd's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Uncaring Tyranny of Government

    They are going to sell his house worth $250K to pay for a $2,5K ticket?
    Will the man be given back the difference?



    Expensive ticket ... Why not just take the car?
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    Liar and Trickster Senior Member Andres's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Uncaring Tyranny of Government

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd Fafnesbane View Post
    They are going to sell his house worth $250K to pay for a $2,5K ticket?
    Will the man be given back the difference?



    Expensive ticket ... Why not just take the car?
    Why not just paying the fine?

    Or apply for a loan to pay the fine if he hasn't got the money right now, a loan which he surely will get, since he has a house without a mortgage on it...

    If he pays what he has to pay right now, nobody will sell his house.
    Last edited by Andres; 08-05-2008 at 13:12.
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    Dragonslayer Emeritus Senior Member Sigurd's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Uncaring Tyranny of Government

    Here is an idea... Why not use his $2600 savings to pay for the ticket. That way he need no loan, can keep the car and the house.

    The Van in question.
    I thought the Americans were all about "I can do whatever I want on my property" ??
    This would never happened here. Hmm ... the neighbour has a car with no licence plates. Maybe ...
    Last edited by Sigurd; 08-05-2008 at 13:37.
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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Uncaring Tyranny of Government

    Here's an idea, why not pay the 50$ ticket and park the car in a garage? Or pay the 2500$ ticket now and blow the car up in front of some government building? Just to show them that you are not going to drive aound with it of course.


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    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Uncaring Tyranny of Government

    Ever since the Kelo Decision, it's been clear to me that "property ownership" by individual citizens in the US is and has been a delusion under which we've labored, and that da gubmint can do any bloody thing it wants to do, whenever and wherever it wants to do it. "Land of the Free and Home of the Brave" is just a slogan; welcome to the Soviet Socialist Republic of North America.

    A $245,000 asset siezed to satisfy a $50 fine of dubious legality. Pah. What's that sound? Comrade Jefferson is spinning in his grave.
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    Liar and Trickster Senior Member Andres's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Uncaring Tyranny of Government

    Quote Originally Posted by KukriKhan View Post

    A $245,000 asset siezed to satisfy a $50 fine of dubious legality. Pah. What's that sound? Comrade Jefferson is spinning in his grave.
    So, the government should just gently ask to please pay your fines and in case you refuse, no biggy, nothing will come of it?

    When is the government allowed to actually collect a fine then? If the culprit owns something that is not worth more then let's say 150 % of the amount of the fine?

    Or would you prefer that the government would drop each and every fine that's not high enough in case the culprit doesn't pay?

    Or would you rather have 500.000 $ fines for minor infractions, so that seizing a house would be justified?

    The guy broke the law, didn't he? A law that has been voted in a democracy. As long as the law is valid, you have to obey it. If you don't like the law, vote for somebody who will change it or become a politican yourself.

    If everybody could happily break the law without consequences because actually punishing the offense would be "ridiculous" or "unreasonable", then you can say bye bye to your freedom (unless total anarchy sounds like utopia to you).
    Last edited by Andres; 08-05-2008 at 14:03.
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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Uncaring Tyranny of Government

    Well, debt collection is a pickle. On one hand, our financial system will collapse if everyone chose to pay whenever they felt like it, just ask any small business how important it is for them that people pay their bills on time.

    On the other hand, there is such a thing as proportion. The goal cannot be to make people pay through the nose, but to reach a reasonable deal that both parties can be happy with when bills aren't paid. In this case, it's clearly beyond that. You don't take someone's house because of a 50 dollar fine, that's just ridiculous.

    Especially when you factor in this guys life.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Liar and Trickster Senior Member Andres's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Uncaring Tyranny of Government

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post

    On the other hand, there is such a thing as proportion. The goal cannot be to make people pay through the nose, but to reach a reasonable deal that both parties can be happy with when bills aren't paid. In this case, it's clearly beyond that. You don't take someone's house because of a 50 dollar fine, that's just ridiculous.
    You guys are all acting like its' the government who is being unreasonable.

    Pay the 50 $ fine like you're supposed to do and obey the law.

    If the guy doesn't respond to a shipload of reminders, then he's the one being unreasonable.

    Not paying 50 $ to let it escalate into this, that's being unreasonable.

    That ánd his brother behaved like a jerk.
    Last edited by Andres; 08-05-2008 at 14:16.
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    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Uncaring Tyranny of Government

    Quote Originally Posted by Andres
    If everybody could happily break the law without consequences because actually punishing the offense would be "ridiculous" or "unreasonable", then you can say bye bye to your freedom
    "Freedom's just another word for: nuttin' left to lose...". Once he's been relieved of the burden of his home and vehicle, then he'll be free. He should thank his benificent overlords for helping him achieve economic Nirvana.

    Seriously tho': if this kind of thing keeps happening, authorities should remember that eventually the populace will have had enough of over-reaching government, stop obeying any laws, and start picking up pitchforks and torches.
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    Default Re: The Uncaring Tyranny of Government

    They are going to sell his house worth $250K to pay for a $2,5K ticket?
    Will the man be given back the difference?
    When assets are siezed to pay a debt in this manner he gets all the money that isn't used to pay the debt , unless he owes money elsewhere and those people put in a claim for money from the sale .
    A little lesson for stupid people isn't it , don't ignore legal letters sent to you and if you are in doubt then seek legal advice .
    And of course a little lesson for clever people , given the huge number of forclosures in Wisconsin the market is flooded with properties for auction , its probably time to buy .
    Though of course if you buy then take a lesson from the other foreclosure story that I mentioned , choose your tennants with care as you don't want the local government taking your property because you rented it to drug dealers and prostitutes and failed in your civic responsibility to keep the area nice and decent for good citizens who don't want their property devalued by your mess .

    Seriously tho': if this kind of thing keeps happening, authorities should remember that eventually the populace will have had enough of over-reaching government, stop obeying any laws, and start picking up pitchforks and torches.
    Pitchforks ???? I thought you had guns for that ...oh yeah I forgot , thats just a myth isn't it .
    Last edited by Tribesman; 08-05-2008 at 14:29.

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    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Uncaring Tyranny of Government

    If the guy had been clever, he'd have taken a can of spray-paint, marked up his van, and declared: "It's not an unregistered vehicle, it's a former pollution machine rescued from our clogged roads, now converted into an Ecological Work of Folk Art." . Charge a nickel to see it.

    Point taken, tho': many 'problems' just go away all by themselves. Government problems never do; they, like day-old fish, just get worse (and smellier) with time.
    Last edited by KukriKhan; 08-05-2008 at 14:44.
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    Liar and Trickster Senior Member Andres's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Uncaring Tyranny of Government

    If the guy would have been clever, he would have paid the 50 $ fine...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kukrikhan
    Seriously tho': if this kind of thing keeps happening, authorities should remember that eventually the populace will have had enough of over-reaching government, stop obeying any laws, and start picking up pitchforks and torches.
    Taking up pitchforks and torches because the government enforces the law?

    When I got a 50 € fine for driving 6 km/h too fast on an empty highway, I cursed, I complained about the stupidity and injustice of it all, oh the drama! and... I paid the fine and fanatically stick to the speed limits ever since.
    Last edited by Andres; 08-05-2008 at 14:52.
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    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Uncaring Tyranny of Government

    The end result of ridiculous laws and onerous penalties is: disrespect for all law, and the eventual encouragement of protest, then resistence, then revolution.

    And so, off to work. Play nicely fellas. :bow"
    Be well. Do good. Keep in touch.

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    Liar and Trickster Senior Member Andres's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Uncaring Tyranny of Government

    Quote Originally Posted by KukriKhan View Post
    The end result of ridiculous laws and onerous penalties is: disrespect for all law, and the eventual encouragement of protest, then resistence, then revolution.

    And so, off to work. Play nicely fellas. :bow"
    But is disobediance the right answer?

    You live in a democracy, so you can vote for the guy who will change the ridiculous laws or, if such a guy doesn't exist, start your own political career and change things yourself.

    As for the case at hand, is it the law that is ridiculous in this case? Cars need to have a license plate and there are several good reasons why a car should have a license plate.

    The fine for not having a license plate seems to be 50 $, not really an onerous penalty, is it?

    What is ridiculous is that it escalated to this.

    But the Government is not the one to blame for that
    Last edited by Andres; 08-05-2008 at 15:29.
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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Uncaring Tyranny of Government

    Disobedience is indeed the answer. But thinking you'll get away with it and whining about it when you don't is not, however...

    Civil disobedience FTW! I think we're all very happy Rosa Parks decided to break that ridiculous law back in the 60's....
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  27. #27
    Liar and Trickster Senior Member Andres's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Uncaring Tyranny of Government

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    Disobedience is indeed the answer. But thinking you'll get away with it and whining about it when you don't is not, however...

    Civil disobedience FTW! I think we're all very happy Rosa Parks decided to break that ridiculous law back in the 60's....
    It is disobedience that turned something as simple as a small fine for not having license plates into a social drama.
    Andres is our Lord and Master and could strike us down with thunderbolts or beer cans at any time. ~Askthepizzaguy

    Ja mata, TosaInu

  28. #28
    Sovereign Oppressor Member TIE Fighter Shooter Champion, Turkey Shoot Champion, Juggler Champion Kralizec's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Uncaring Tyranny of Government

    As far as govenment tyranny cases go, this is by far the least convincing case I've seen on this board. I agree with Andres.

  29. #29
    Silent Ruler Member Dîn-Heru's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Uncaring Tyranny of Government

    The man should have paid his fine from the start, no doubt about that.

    But it is still allowed to show some common sense from the side of the bureaucrats.. You do not forclose on a house worth 250 thousand to pay a debt of 2500.. You take the car, or freeze his bankaccounts, or make him work it of doing community service.. But to even threathen to take someone's house away over something that is basically a cosmetic issue about how the neighbourhood should appear is simply ridicullus..
    Patience is the companion of wisdom.
    --St. Augustine

  30. #30

    Default Re: The Uncaring Tyranny of Government

    But it is still allowed to show some common sense from the side of the bureaucrats..
    It is common sense , they could have hit him with a GF148 and throwed him in jail , putting people in jail costs money so this foreclosure is more fiscaly prudent . I would have thought someone like Rabbit would being favour of the govrernment saving tax payers money by siezing assets of lawbreakers instead of wasting money jailing them in Americas luxury prisons for a small mistake .

    Does anyone kinda get the impression that in the main this topic has not gone in the direction the OP wanted

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