Infantry

[Pinkkiller]

hmm so which faction has the best infantry? ...Romani?

[Socy]

I dont know for sure, but it depends alot on your playstyle, and how you use your infantry. Romani gets pretty awesome infantry in the late game (So I've heard, never tested them myself) but you're in for one long game if you want them.

Most factions can field good infantry, if you use them correctly. Exceptions might be the Nomadic factions, but their strong cavalry makes up for it.

I'd say the Diadochi-kingdoms have awesome infantry without having to wait for reforms. Most of the Diadochi-kingdoms have defensive infantry per excellence and heavily armoured and armed infantry for assaults, aswell as lighter troops for skirmishes etc. For example the Seleukids, Pezhetairoi for holding the line, Thureophoroi for all-purpose, Thorakitai for heavy spearmen, Peltastai Makedonike and Hypaspistai for serious kickass, Thorakitai Agematos Basilikou when you just want to feel godlike etc. Peltastai, I've found, are also awesome, I use them as flankers with great effects, javelin+charge+numbers=rout. And with all the available eastern local troops, there are countless of ways to combine your forces!

The same goes for other Diadochi-kingdoms. Makedonia = Phalangites+Thraikian troops (Serious kickass). Ptolemaioi = Phalangites+Galatians. Baktria and Epeiros, while not having any super-heavy assault infantry to back up their phalangites, have other strengths. Elephants and Hetairoi Kataphraktoi you know... Well, the Epirotes have Samnite infantry, should they wish to hold on to their holdings in Magna Graecia.

And then we have the celts, Aeudi and Arverni. They have many lightly armoured troops, but also many heavily armoured troops, wich are awesome and can, in my experience, stand toe to toe with roman troops (Perhaps not Augustan, but meh). Casse and Lusotanna have lighter troops, but used correctly will win the day in combination with other troops. Carthage have good heavy troops but have another advantage from my experience, they are extremely mobile and versatile on the battlefield, wich is awesome! Sweboz have some cool infantry aswell, though I haven't played them too much.

Eastern factions have infantry of poorer quality though, but then again, used correctly they are valuable. (= Do not attempt to form a frontline with Hyrkanian Hillmen against Seleucid Argyraspidai...)

[Tyrfingr]

Socy,

You forgot about the Getai, which has in my opinion THE best infantry in the whole game. In 1.0, when they still had phalanxes they had everything - armourpiercing infantry, heavy armoured infantry, excellent skirmishers, decent phalanxes. In 1.1 they are not "totally awesome", just awesome.

[Swordmaster]

Socy,

You forgot about the Getai, which has in my opinion THE best infantry in the whole game. In 1.0, when they still had phalanxes they had everything - armourpiercing infantry, heavy armoured infantry, excellent skirmishers, decent phalanxes. In 1.1 they are not "totally awesome", just awesome.

The Dacian phalanx is gone? Damn, I remember those guys from 0.81 IIRC. Was fun fighting them.

[QuintusSertorius]

You don't need to wait for late Roman troops, the Polybian ones are good enough. All have excellent morale, decent armour, high lethality swords, and precursor weapons. Plus you have the pedites extraordinarii, who are champions. Nice range of regional allied infantry to choose from to enliven your army, too.

[vdpk7]

as for custom battles, dacia for me.. those skirmishers are real killers..

next maybe are the romans.. having 10 units all with precursor weapons always make things easy..





..oh dont forget to have 20 units of those 2 hp, javelin throwing gaestae :P

[The Persian Cataphract]

Well, someone needs to take a stand for Eastern infantry...

Okay, they are not as strong as that of their Hellenic, Roman, or Celtic counter-parts. They don't need to be either. You can get all the toughness you need for your money with the Hyrcanians. You can still get the largely defensive quality from a hoplite from the Cardaces, Shipri Tukul or the Armenian infantry guards. Pahlava gets their own flavour of the Thureophoroi, which is sword and javelins, in the same vein as an imitation legion. Line infantry? The Pantodapoi Phalangitai fits the bill perfectly, all they have to do is to just stand and hold the line. However with only a few exceptions, the Eastern factions also get some of the best foot-archers in the game. All that shooting means that you no longer need battle-winning infantry, when you only need them to pin down the enemy until the cavalry (Or the Hyrcanians... They are just that good for those cases) can bring that decisive charge.

It's basically a natural way to balance out things. Look at the Celtic factions. Sure, awesome elite infantry. They give the Greeks and Romans a run for their money. But look at their cavalry. Look at their archers. The Romans are not too far away either. Only the Eastern Greeks, and by that, I make Ptolemaioi an exception, combines the strong infantry tradition of the Hellenes with the flexibility of Eastern warfare. Arche Seleukeia and Baktria are henceforth two of the absolute monsters in the game, but out of all the Eastern factions, Pahlava evens it out with an ample variety of light cavalry. We can't really compare infantry by the standard of comparing stats. It's all about how you use it to fit the philosophy of warfare.

[Swordmaster]

Well, much like what has been said above, most infantry in the game is good... if properly used. Some find their advantages in number, some in speed, others in armour, still others in strength and stamina. It's almost impossible to single out any one faction, let alone a unit, to answer your question. 75% if not more of all infantry units are top notch. Only a few have I found to be disappointing so far, but even those may be good in the hands of someone more capable.

[QuintusSertorius]

Well, much like what has been said above, most infantry in the game is good... if properly used. Some find their advantages in number, some in speed, others in armour, still others in strength and stamina. It's almost impossible to single out any one faction, let alone a unit, to answer your question. 75% if not more of all infantry units are top notch. Only a few have I found to be disappointing so far, but even those may be good in the hands of someone more capable.

I think your use of Hellenic Native Phalanxes in your Seleukid game aptly demostrates that. When the AI uses them, they're pitiful. When a player uses them with skill, they can beat even elites, provided their flanks are secure.

[Pinkkiller]

ok thx for all good answers and I guess there are many different answers to this question. and I just have to try wich I prefer myself XD right now..playing Getai wich indeed has good infantry...and cavalry thought haven't really tried that just beat Epeirote out of the game with them

[Socy]

Socy,

You forgot about the Getai, which has in my opinion THE best infantry in the whole game. In 1.0, when they still had phalanxes they had everything - armourpiercing infantry, heavy armoured infantry, excellent skirmishers, decent phalanxes. In 1.1 they are not "totally awesome", just awesome.

Aye, I forgot the Getai. I KNEW that it was some faction I forgot to mention, just not wich. And yes, the Getai have awesome infantry. They, like the Macedonians, can recruit Thracians!'

The Persian Cataphract; Yes, I agree with what you say and briefly (And perhaps not clearly) mention it in my post. Eastern factions have some good infantry units, and a lot of decent ones. But used correctly, ie. part of the force, not only the force, they are good. They are however, not comparable to more western infantry.

As others have said, and as I myself said in my post, almost all infantry is good if used correctly. It ultimately is a question about your own playstyle. Me? I hold the Hellenic factions and their way of war in high regard, with a stable center with phalangites, backed by heavy and light infantry for different purposes aswell as a strong (Admittely not cataphract/horse-archer - strong) cavalry. I'm sure you can tell from my post that I favour these factions .

[Atraphoenix]

"A lion that leads sheeps defeats A sheep that leads lions!"

A good general, a good combination of soldiers, good selection of battlefield can give you a chance to defeat any elite army.

An army that is only composed of infantry easily defeated by a cavalry dominated army.

An army that is just made up cavalry an easy prey in woods.

so it depends on you how to combine your tactics and how to shape battlefield and how to place your men.

yes naturally spearmen natural killers of cavalry as cavalry is nightmares for missile infantry.

but every type of soldier has advantages and disadvantages

a fully armoured infantry cannot chase light ones.

using cavalry for defence is beyond the creation of them.

same as to order a phalanx to chase archers is suicide.

but of course I know how stupid AI is it is very funny for me when AI sends his phalanx against my Horse archers or AI heroically charges my spearmen / phalanxes with cavalry. yes heroic but their ends; too

war is a simple thing that includes complex processes .

but if you classify the best for example for armour for stamina for discipline that makes sense

in that concept romans has best armoured infantry as parthi has best armoured cataphracts

for stamina most HA nigtmares of many infantries same as crazy getai shock infantries

for discipline elite troops any of them quite reasonable.

but do not forget that the war does not determine who is right only who is left..

"If you know yourself and your enemy you will be victorious in every battle, If you know yourself but not the enemy you will face one victory one defeat, if you do not yourself and even not the enemy defeat is inevitable" Sun Tzu

and your aim should not be to win sometimes an army can fight to dead to give maximum casulty to the enemy to make the enemy weaker so that the second army can wipe out the remaining enemy...

I think it exceeded the limits of the topic.

[Moros]

Lusotanann have great infantry. The only thing they lack are phalanxes. They got all the rest.

[strategos roma]

The diadochi have a good variety of swordsman and phalangites with some lighter troops, but the romans have plenty of good units later on. Carthage and the western factions also have some great troops.

[tls5669]

Dont laugh, but my late Kart army with sacred band inf, African pikemen, and SB calv as the main make up is unbeatable. Just dont forget to add some Spanish "fast moving" inf for the flanks.

IMO the Sacred Band Infantry is the best infantry unit in the game, followed real closely by the Germanic heavy infantry (forgot the name but they can get gold weapons)

[SwissBarbar]

Koinon Hellenon have a great infantery, i play the campaign. The have no easy starting position, because they have to defeat Macedonia and epeiros, but their infantery really rulez the battlefield.

At the beginning you don't have macedonian phalax units, but old fashioned strong hoplites. They are faster than mac. phalanx an can easily outflank and crush them. After defeating macedonia i had epeiros and the ptolemaioi as allies. I defeated seleukeia an forced them back to the east. I defeated pontos without a problem an conquerd the getai completely, whose great infantery just were no match for my Thorakitai hoplitai and Epilektoi Hoplitai.

When the terrytory of todays Turkey (exept the cities of the ptolemaioi) were mine, and also all of greece, crete an the northern former getai territory i conquerd syracus on sicily. There i met Carthago, and again also their infantery was absolutely no match for mine. Meanwhile i have conquerd half of their empire and now i finally can recruit Koinon Hellenon Phalangitai (Greek Pikemen).

Koinon Hellenon have not many good Cavallery-Units , not many good Archers (expept the skythian footarchers, when you control northern territorys), but with their heavy infantry I now, after a very difficult start, am in war at the same time with: carthago (western frontside), ptolemaioi (southern front.), seleukeia (eastern front.), rome (northwestern front.) and skythia (norhteasern front.) and can hold the line in the east and expand in italy and africa. I defeatet completely Pontos, Epeiros (who became a protectorate of Rome), Macedonia and the Getai.


Therefore i claim that Koinon Hellenon have the best infantery there is ;)

[Martelus Flavius]

Well I played extensively only two factions :

Romani and Hellenes (Let's say Hélène it is more motivating!!! ) And indeed the greek infantry is good! The only case being difficult is against horse archers... (In that case I think only the massive use of toxotai can change something.

But I have to say (and it is probably not all rational) that I prefer the versatile roman infantry, especially the fact that they are all equipped with ranged weapon, quite good armored (especially at the end) gives them a large use panel. Their high moral is also very useful and often gives you time to manouvre properly to flank or rear them!

Regards

Martel

[SwissBarbar]

yes, thats true. faster archer-units can wear out the slower hoplites. But you really have to show up with LOTS of Archers, because this good armored units can stand many arrows until they fall.

I myself am a great "fan" of roman history and their art of war, and i must honestly say, that in this game i only faced polybian armies, and not later roman units. I could imagine, that the latest roman units are even stronger than the elitehoplites of koinon hellenon, but its a long way to get them, and i will have defeated rome, befor they even get near the point where they could recruit stronger units than the polybian ones

[Aemilius Paulus]

I absolutely agree with Martelus Flavius. He could not have stated it better. My preference is Romani of course as I am a good honest Roman myself. However, I do have to admit that the KH infantry is hard to outdo. Their infantry units have pretty much the highest armor/weapon stats in the game and I am sure their morale is even better. In spite of this, the KH armies are not especially versatile. I am not so much talking about the cavalry. I don't have much use for them (charge in the rear and pursuing routers), although I have won numerous battles with absolutely nothing but cavalry on my side and absolutely nothing but Seleukid elite phalanxes on the enemies' side. I simply had a phalanx follow one unit of horsemen while another charged them in the back and pulled out after five seconds, repeating many time. However that is not my style. I could win any battle with just infantry (any single player battle that is) and by infantry I mean non-ranged infantry. Of course, chasing down the routers is next to impossible with anything two-legged, but I could still win the battle.

People say there are archers to counter such infantry-heavy strategy. FALSE. Any unit of Principes, Triarii, or non Militia/Thueroporoi hoplites can get pelted by a unit of archers 'till their ammo runs out and lose no more than 1-4 men as long as their facing the source of the rain of arrows. I have had to find that out much to my own disappointment. I was using 7 missile attack Cretan archers (normal Cretan archers have 6 base attack) against a KH unit of Thorkitai that was facing me. Result: 2 casualties and my archers out of ammo. That was just a test (thankfully!) and it showed me just how useful archers are (they're only good for fire arrows and for shooting in the back of weaker units). What one has to remember that the 6 missile attack is as good archers get without upgrades such as weapons/experience. Slingers are a completely different matter but fortunately the AI doesn't have much of that. In general, archers and slingers seem to do the worst against sarissa phalanxes; it is often impossible to get ANY causalities from the front. Cavalry is no threat to infantry either and to prevent flanking maneuvers you can make an infantry square.

The only way to defeat a well led infantry force is to use another infantry force. For this, Romani are the best. Their pilum are devastating, the Triarii (Camillian) are pretty cheap for an elite unit, the unit upkeeps are low, and Pedites Extraordinarii are probably the one of the very best among all infantry units, only comparable to Gaesatae, Cordinau Orca, and Thorakitai Agematos Basilikou. Pedites have 10 base AP sword attack! Just about the highest AP attack I have ever encountered. Only Thrakian and Getai units have higher AP but their armor doesn't even come close to the 28 Pedites have. As I have already said, Pedites Extraordinarii have a sword, which means that it does not get a -4 or something like that penalty against other sword units, such as a hoplite will get. Instead, 50% of the armor of the unit the Pedites are fighting against, will be bypassed thanks to the AP attribute. That really counts for something when you're facing armored tanks such as the previously mentioned Thorakitai Agematos Basilikou.

[SwissBarbar]

very good text, thats all true what you say, but one thing:

the romanii can throw their pila as much as they want versus my Greek phalanx, there will not be more than 4-5 casualties.

Roman infantry is very good, but they have a very short range with their swords. They do only penetrate a good phalanx-formation with great loss, especially if i stationate some hoplitai just among the phalangitai, so that the hoplitai are protectet by their spears but kill anyone who wants to penetrate the formation. Good protection at the flanks and you beat every roman army.

And with 78 of my Epilektoi Hoplitai i killed 120 Pedites Extraordinarii in my last battle in a 1on1 without help of other units on both sides. They are beatable

[Aemilius Paulus]

It is true that the pilum rarely kills more than 4 hoplites but then again, if you get lucky enough to throw it in the backs of a unit, then the casualties will be closer to 20. The Pedites never were unbeatable. They are great offensive infantry and few other units have as much attack as them but as for their defence they are just above average, that's all. Epilektoi Hoplitai have 17 attack and 29 defence. Pedites Extraordinarii have 10 attack 28 defence. Epilektoi Hoplitai receive a -4 penalty (that all spear units get when facing swordsmen) against Pedites lowering their attack to 13.

One of the main KH weaknesses is the lack of sword infantry in my opinion. A unit of Pedites has to always attack as their sword does not reach as far as a spear (but has higher attack). A good way to carry out this attack is to order the PE to run to a point right behind the EH, which will cause the PE to run through the EH and destroy their phalanx.

PE have 80 men and pilum whereas EH have 60 men but three more attack and one more defence. The pilum, while not so great against more upper-end troops, will slaughter the medium and lower end infantry. The PE are also about 1,000 mnai cheaper. That makes the two units about even. However, the AP attribute of PE should lower the HE armor to about 14.5. I need to have a test to see which unit wins the engagement.

[SwissBarbar]

yes, i know that trick with klicking behind the formation and then hey run trough ;) thats why i always stationate hoplitai among the phalangitai, though the AI never does that

we agree that both factions have very good units and can - played by a good player - become a very challenging enemy

[machinor]

Don't forget good old Carthage. They got it all: Liby-Phoenicians are basically Hoplites, Libyans are Thureophoroi and Elite Liby-Phoenician are your basic heavy elites. Plus you also get Classic Hoplites, Loricati Scutari (those guys alone are reason enough to conquer Spain), Samnitici and Gallic Infantry trough various regional MICs. And when you get your reforms you do not have to be afraid of even those Marian Mules.
Carthage is one of THE allround factions. The only think they lack are Horse Archers (but they get one of the finest light cavalry there is (Numidians!) which seems like a good bargain to me) and some decent heavy cavalry (I have almost no experience with those Spanish cataphracts). Apart from that, you are basically equipped for anything, although you have to get certain regions to really play out all your potential.

[Chirurgeon]

Don't forget good old Carthage. They got it all: Liby-Phoenicians are basically Hoplites, Libyans are Thureophoroi and Elite Liby-Phoenician are your basic heavy elites. Plus you also get Classic Hoplites, Loricati Scutari (those guys alone are reason enough to conquer Spain), Samnitici and Gallic Infantry trough various regional MICs. And when you get your reforms you do not have to be afraid of even those Marian Mules.
Carthage is one of THE allround factions. The only think they lack are Horse Archers (but they get one of the finest light cavalry there is (Numidians!) which seems like a good bargain to me) and some decent heavy cavalry (I have almost no experience with those Spanish cataphracts). Apart from that, you are basically equipped for anything, although you have to get certain regions to really play out all your potential.

The spanish cataphracts are in a word...devastating. Mainly because there is nothing in the West that can counter them. Used appropriately they will own all other cavarly in the Western Med. I also agree about Carthage. I have not played them since they got reforms but I am sure they are great.

[Hax]

not many good Archers

Of course not. They haven't got Scythian foot-archers, Bosphoran heavy archers, Kretan archers...those are some of the best units in the game.

[Fondor_Yards]

People say there are archers to counter such infantry-heavy strategy. FALSE. Any unit of Principes, Triarii, or non Militia/Thueroporoi hoplites can get pelted by a unit of archers 'till their ammo runs out and lose no more than 1-4 men as long as their facing the source of the rain of arrows. I have had to find that out much to my own disappointment. I was using 7 missile attack Cretan archers (normal Cretan archers have 6 base attack) against a KH unit of Thorkitai that was facing me. Result: 2 casualties and my archers out of ammo. That was just a test (thankfully!) and it showed me just how useful archers are (they're only good for fire arrows and for shooting in the back of weaker units). What one has to remember that the 6 missile attack is as good archers get without upgrades such as weapons/experience. Slingers are a completely different matter but fortunately the AI doesn't have much of that. In general, archers and slingers seem to do the worst against sarissa phalanxes; it is often impossible to get ANY causalities from the front. Cavalry is no threat to infantry either and to prevent flanking maneuvers you can make an infantry square.

The only way to defeat a well led infantry force is to use another infantry force. For this, Romani are the best. Their pilum are devastating, the Triarii (Camillian) are pretty cheap for an elite unit, the unit upkeeps are low, and Pedites Extraordinarii are probably the one of the very best among all infantry units, only comparable to Gaesatae, Cordinau Orca, and Thorakitai Agematos Basilikou. Pedites have 10 base AP sword attack! Just about the highest AP attack I have ever encountered. Only Thrakian and Getai units have higher AP but their armor doesn't even come close to the 28 Pedites have. As I have already said, Pedites Extraordinarii have a sword, which means that it does not get a -4 or something like that penalty against other sword units, such as a hoplite will get. Instead, 50% of the armor of the unit the Pedites are fighting against, will be bypassed thanks to the AP attribute. That really counts for something when you're facing armored tanks such as the previously mentioned Thorakitai Agematos Basilikou.

Your either using the wrong archers, using them wrong, or don't have enough archers units in your army if your only getting that few kills with them. I have no problem using Caucasian, Syrian, and Cretans to decimate Ptolemaic and Seleucid forces as Pontus. Either use massed fire or shoot at the right flank and rear. And of course your not going to kill pikemen from the front, for the same reason you don't kill hoplites. And how could you possible say that cavalry isn't a threat to infantry after playing Parthia?

Yes Pedites Extraordinarii are a very good unit, but there are others too. Dorkei Hatkafa Ibeerim have the same stats as Pedites Extraordinarii, with a better javelin attack, while Ambakaro have a higher ap attack. All iberians have the same attack of at least 10 in fact that use falcata except Caetrati, but they all use a better javelin that they can throw farther. The Elite Libyphoenicians have a higher ap attack with a higher lethality, with a higher defense stat. Plus a spear for fighting cavalry.

Drapanai and Thraikioi Rhomphaiaphoroi do have less armour, but their much higher lethality *0.26 compaired to .11* means they will rip them up nearly any unit that fights them. Don't forget about a unit's lethality, thats usually more important to if something is just AP.

[Aemilius Paulus]

I have my own ways of using archers. First of all, I never order them to attack a unit that is facing them. Unless I am using fire arrows to lower the enemy morale. I usually have only one or maximum two units of archers which I use mostly for the fire arrows. Normal arrows are sent only when the enemy exposes its soldier's backs. Slingers are so much better than archers, or at least their attack is. They are simply devastating. When the enemy has archers, I simply advance, not giving those pathetic flying toothpicks a second thought. However, if the enemy has slingers, I start biting my nails.

Archers have to fire in your back or right side to inflict any significant causalities, whereas even a single unit of slingers can ruin a battle for you (not lose, just maul couple of elite, hard-to-replace units). That is another reason why I keep Cretans. They can outrange any slinger unit and I use them to pick off those pesky devils. One of my favorite methods of assaulting a city is to storm the city with a full stack that's half-filled with slingers, usually Accensi but sometimes Iaosatae or even Balearic slingers and once the ammo of my missile units is exhausted, I withdraw them and another reinforcement half-stack comes, but this one is made up of melee units. By the time my slingers withdraw, the enemy losses are anywhere from 50 to as much as 100%.

Slingers are a lot deadlier (higher attack, not necessarily deadlier in a tactical sense, although I think they are) than the archers, just ask any experienced EB player. Only the mobility of a horse archer can make up for their much lower lethality. Regular archers are pretty much only useful for the fire arrows. In addition, slingers are much cheaper, in fact probably the cheapest units in the game.

P.S. What's all this talk about Romani having better late units? I was utterly disappointed by the fact that Roman units after each reform pretty much get weaker and less varied. That maybe historical, but I was nevertheless disheartened. By the Augustan reform you have very few infantry to choose from (no Triarii, Hastati, Principes, Samniti Milites, Pedites Extraordinarii, Hastati Samniti, ACCENSI!!!, Rorarii, Leves), just legionaries, vigiles, eastern archers, the supposedly elite praetorians and a crappy spear unit. The Camillian units seem to have the highest stats, or at least the highest attack/armor. Yes, it is true that later infantry is available in more provinces and is more numerous (more men per unit) but their stats are simply abysmal in comparison to Camillians! - at least that's what the EB Units list says. Please correct me if I am wrong. The EB Units List (from EB documentation) seems to have some mistakes (or isn't recently updated) - early Principes are stated to only have 19 defence, which is not true, I believe they have 22 or something else that's higher than 19. Caucasian archers are also listed as having 4 attack, which is also not true; they have 6.

[Fondor_Yards]

Yea the online Unit List/Compare is outta date. I agree slingers are better vs armoured units, and for the 'civilized factions', are the usually way to go. But in the eastern half, and as the Getai and Carthage*I'm pretty meh about the Balearics for some reason, I love then but I just prefer numidians* I use archers more. When fighting there, archers are more then enough to weaken enemy ranks.

If you want to see a total slaughter, try fighting a good varied celtic/iberian/germanic army with an army of Bosphoran Heavy Archers. Or worse, HA, it's a murder fest.

[tapanojum]

How great a unit roster is doesn't matter much. You will always have good enough infantry available. I am playing a migrated realm. Koinon Hellenon --->Massalia. My main front line consists of celto-hellenic spearmen. I have pretty much defeated the Iberians,Carthigians, and Roman elite armies with average troop composition. You are facing an AI not a real player, so even with lesser troops, you still have an advantage.