Heavy Fighting in South Ossetia

[rvg]

Well, now we know for sure which country is the first one to be absorbed into Comrade Putin's new Soviet Union.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Areas around Georgia's capital seem to have been bombed by Russian forces. Georgia is removing its 2000 strong fighting force from Iraq.

This action seems to be in response to knowledge by Russia that Georgia will be part of NATO as of next year. If they had been part of NATO now this would have never happened, but if it had we would be at war with the Russian Federation.

I guess we know where Medvedev is coming from now, eh? I hope Putin is enjoying himself in Beijing.

Also there seems to be a trend in calling violent occupational forces "peace keepers". 10 Russian "peace keepers" seem to have been killed earlier this morning as other "peace keepers" bombed bases near Tbilisi...

Georgia put 2000 of its dudes on the line in Iraq and is being promised NATO membership discussion. To let them fry would be despicable.

[Geoffrey S]

Georgia put 2000 of its dudes on the line in Iraq and is being promised NATO membership discussion. To let them fry would be despicable.

It would be, wouldn't it?

[Husar]

Yes, the best thing to do is to start a huge war with Russia now, a nuclear war if possible, only because Georgia had to shell some 70,000 breakaway nutters in nooneknowswhere.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Yes, the best thing to do is to start a huge war with Russia now, a nuclear war if possible, only because Georgia had to shell some 70,000 breakaway nutters in nooneknowswhere.

Not a huge war. Just an idy-bity one.

We could send in NATO Peacekeepers like we did in Serbia before things got way too hot. That was a good move that worked out well. Russia wouldn't attack NATO right now. Unless they are insane - in which case a massive war is rather unavoidable anyway, eh?

I just don't understand why they are bombing around Tbilisi. Get a map and see how absurd that is.

[rvg]

Yes, the best thing to do is to start a huge war with Russia now, a nuclear war if possible, only because Georgia had to shell some 70,000 breakaway nutters in nooneknowswhere.

Not quite as radical, but it won't hurt to show some spine and at the very least issue a condemnation of Russian invasion, followed by some financial and logistical assistance to Georgia.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

I think Full Blown War will happen. Russia is just mad that they aren't as big as they were 40 years ago..

[Tribesman]

Oh well onto more interesting subjects .
Did anyone see the opening ceromony of the Olympics ?
I did , they put it on in the pub just after arrived after I had taken he kids for their morning dip in the Atlantic .
It was quite good , it certainly give the Macnas parade a run for its money , but then again I don't think the Macnas parade gets quite the level of money that the Olympics get and the performers don't end up in labour camps if they screw up .
But anyway after a while the racing started so the opening ceremony got switched off as I don't think there is a bookie that is taking bets on how many flags are waved or what sort of patterns the performers can make in the sand .

[ICantSpellDawg]

When China recieved the Olympics I thought it was a good idea because of the positive geopolitical effects. Those effects were not forthcoming, so I'm not going to watch a man dance around in his skivies on ice. Unless he is doing it in South Ossetia.

Olympics shmolympics. This is a Total-War forum, not a Total-Olympics forum.

Update - the dancing hot chinese girl band was good. Olympics are as boring as hell. I'd rather watch the World Cup.

[yesdachi]

NATO dragged their feet too long, let Russia have Georgia.

[Dâriûsh]

Georgia put 2000 of its dudes on the line in Iraq and is being promised NATO membership discussion. To let them fry would be despicable.

So, should the Georgian army be allowed to complete the ethnic cleansing of South Ossetia they began in 1991?

[Decker]

Wow!...This happened really fast. In my personal opinion(and I'm no expert in the Russian world of Politics), but I'd say let them go at it. If it means no war with Russia or a World War Three in general. Then good. There is no point in escalating into a conventional war with a nuclear power over a little meaningless province. Yes, it's horrible that civilians, soldiers are probably being killed as we speak, but if it mean thousands or millions more are spared from being drawn into this conflict then so be it. Lets hope that they keep it to South Ossetia and not spread the fighting to the rest of Georgia, though, if Georgia mobilizes and calls up more troops, then that might happen.

Russia "suppressed" Georgia fire in South Ossetia

MOSCOW (Reuters) - Russian soldiers now in the South Ossetian capital say their artillery has begun firing at Georgian forces - the first confirmed engagement between the two countries' troops, Russian agencies reported.

"Georgian troop positions firing on Tskhinvali and peacekeepers were suppressed by artillery fire and tank units of the 58th Army, which are outside the capital of South Ossetia," Russian army Colonel Igor Konashenkov, television channel Vesti-24 quoted him as saying.

Russians engaging Georgians

[Marshal Murat]

IrishArmenian, where are you when we need Caucasian politics explained???

EMFM: The opening picture is of T-80s with reactive armor, followed by a rolling clip of the self-propelled artillery and what look like BMDs (or a similar model).

Why? We have two breakaway countries. As it seems right now, Georgia has just attacked one of these countries, and the other country and Russia came to the aid of that country.

The two 'countries' mentioned, Abkanaz (or something similar) and Southern Ossetia are regions that are under Georgian control. One region, specifically Southern Ossetia, agreed to a ceasefire, but then attacked Georgian forces. Now Russian 'peacekeepers' are rolling in with the heavy stuff, protecting 'Russian' civilians, attacking Georgian troops, and supporting an insurrectionist movement. Abkanaz rebels have been moving in to assist, but to my knowledge, Georgia still remains in control.

As such, Georgia can either
1. Play dead and let Ossetia be overrun by Russian peacekeepers, who will probably stay for some time.
2. Fight back hard and fast, driving back Rebel and Russian forces, fighting them off until outside intervention.
3. Forget about the two provinces, and let bygones be bygones.

Georgia now is at a turning point. They can either continue the battles against Russia, or they can stop. It's going to be interesting to see if the Russians can get to Atlanta.

[Kralizec]

I'm pretty ignorant on the entire Caucasus, but I'd pick option #3 outlined in Marshall Murat's post. Clinging on to regions that don't want you is:
A) immoral
B) usually not worth it, anyway
Plus it seems rather far fetched to assume a country like Georgia could take and keep a region that wants to be part of Russia and wich Russia is willing to defend if necessary.

Does anyone know how the south Ossetians came to being Russian citizens?

[Conradus]

Does anyone know how the south Ossetians came to being Russian citizens?

As far as I know, Russia basically gave those Ossetians who wanted it a Russian pasport. Makes for an excellent casus belli now.

[Marshal Murat]

Like people in East Karelia were Russian Citizens in 1938 (roll eyes).

I think it's Russian citizens living in Georgia (KGB plants???) who work there, and some have been killed (perhaps justly, maybe injustly, who knows?). SO Russia has responded like the Americans did in Latin America, Brits in India and Africa.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Russian forces exchange heavy fire with Georgians.

EMFM: The opening picture is of T-80s with reactive armor, followed by a rolling clip of the self-propelled artillery and what look like BMDs (or a similar model).

Yes, I know, it's just a small gripe I have with the news service..."Video of Russian tanks rolling in to South Ossetia"...well, partially, but the video is mostly 2S3 Akatsiyas, BMDs, and BMPs. Anyways, moving on.

The two 'countries' mentioned, Abkanaz (or something similar) and Southern Ossetia are regions that are under Georgian control. One region, specifically Southern Ossetia, agreed to a ceasefire, but then attacked Georgian forces.

That's actually not true. Firstly, South Ossetia is partly under Georgian control. Secondly, Georgia did break the ceasefire, as outlined in the article. They admit having done so.

The head of Georgian peacekeepers in South Ossetia said the operation was intended to "restore constitutional order" to the region.

The Georgians launched an operation after a ceasefire had been agreed to.

2. Fight back hard and fast, driving back Rebel and Russian forces, fighting them off until outside intervention.

If anyone intervenes, they will be a fool to do so.

Does anyone know how the south Ossetians came to being Russian citizens?

Not sure, though I suspect the North Ossetians and the close relations the South Ossetians have to Russia must have something to do with it. Besides, it's handy to have a good passport that lets you travel if you're rebelling against the country that issues your other one...

[Praxil]

Also there seems to be a trend in calling violent occupational forces "peace keepers". 10 Russian "peace keepers" seem to have been killed earlier this morning as other "peace keepers" bombed bases near Tbilisi...

I just don't understand why they are bombing around Tbilisi. Get a map and see how absurd that is.

Eh? Are you aware of the fact that it's Georgia attacking in South Ossetia?

[Caius]

Well, now we know for sure which country is the first one to be absorbed into Comrade Putin's new Soviet Union.

I'm laughing at you right now Comrade. Come on, its absurd! I mean, you can't judge the book by the portade. Communism is something more than the party. You don't need just the party, but you also need a lot of conditions to make it work. Well, I think its my opinion.

[Crazed Rabbit]

I've got to agree with TuffStuff; I see this as Russian action to prevent Georgia from joining NATO. I don't think they give one care in the world for the Ossetians (sp?).

Georgia helped us in Iraq and were looking to join NATO. I think we need to support them morally and to show Russia it can't bully everyone around anymore.

CR

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

I've got to agree with TuffStuff; I see this as Russian action to prevent Georgia from joining NATO. I don't think they give one care in the world for the Ossetians (sp?).

I doubt the Russians care much for the Ossetians either. But the Ossetians within South Ossetia want the Russians, and the Ossetians within Russia want the Ossetians outside of Russia. Russia has good relations with Ossetia, and it is natural from them to aid Ossetia in its hour of need.

I think we need to support them morally and to show Russia it can't bully everyone around anymore.

I think that some people are missing the point. Georgia attacked South Ossetia and broke the peacekeeping deal they had with the Russians and the Ossetians. Russia did not cross the border until this was done.

[Marshal Murat]

EMFM, why do you hate freedom?

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

EMFM, why do you hate freedom?

I don't, I love it. Which is why I am supporting Abkhazia and South Ossetia, who want to be free of Georgia.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

It's a shame all three parties can't lose.

[Rhyfelwyr]

I don't, I love it. Which is why I am supporting Abkhazia and South Ossetia, who want to be free of Georgia.

It seems this isn't just a case of a poor little oppresed people seeking independance. The problem in South Ossetia is riddled with fighting between clans, with no real Russian or Georgian identities. Russia has taken advantage of this to gain influence in the region by buying the support of many Ossetian clans through supplying them with arms, thus fuelling the disorder within Georgian territory.

Having gained the loyalty of clan leaders, Russia then sends in 'peacekeeper' troops to the region, claiming to defend 'Russian' people. So when Georgia attempts to establish control over its own territory, crippled by disorder, Georgia appears as the aggressor, despite the fact that this land is officially recognised by Russia as Georgian territory.

And after the fighting begins it soon becomes clear that Russia is not on a peackeeping mission, as can be seen from the bombings by the Russia jets.

Since historical comparisons with Germany are fun, it sounds like a similar situation to Prussia and Austria over Schleswig and Hostein. Austria (Georgia) wanted to send troops to protect its northern territory, but had to cross Prussian (Russian) occupied lands to do this. This made Austria appear as the aggressor, giving Prussia the chance to mobilise its own troops in 'self defence'. And in the end, the big guy won (what's the modern equivalent of needle guns? - they always remind me of Needlers from Halo). Unless a bigger guy now comes to the rescue...

[Ice]

I'm laughing at you right now Comrade. Come on, its absurd! I mean, you can't judge the book by the portade. Communism is something more than the party. You don't need just the party, but you also need a lot of conditions to make it work. Well, I think its my opinion.

He isn't saying Russia is communist. "Putin's Soviet Union" wouldn't be communist.