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Thread: Heavy Fighting in South Ossetia

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    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re : Heavy Fighting in South Ossetia

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    NOW will you people at last agree with me that fierce pan-Europeanism coupled with fierce Transatlanticism is the right course?
    Still no, sorry. NATO and free trade is all we need. We are more than capable of taking on Russia - even Germany and France can take Russia's increasingly out of date military. The nuclear question is Russia's only real military trump card.

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    lurker Member JR-'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Re : Heavy Fighting in South Ossetia

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars View Post
    NATO and free trade is all we need.
    agreed.

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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Heavy Fighting in South Ossetia

    MAD is Russia's only trump, and I don't imagine they'd use it any more than we would.

    The Russians need to be corralled in Georgia, with the pipeline protected, and even more importantly Ukraine helped in getting the Russians out in 2017. Russia might want the sphere of influence - but if Britain suddenly wanted to own India again, does this somehow make it OK?

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Heavy Fighting in South Ossetia

    So, it is OK for NATO to expend, but the Russians can’t.
    Russia does use in Georgia what NATO did in Kosovo.
    I am not in favour of Russia as such. As I said I was trained to fight the Red Army.

    However, the general hysteria because, due to the fact that the “democratically” elected President wanted to genocide a little bit and Russia jumped on the opportunity, is little bit too much.

    I don’t know if Russian Army is modern or not but with Russian material, the Serbian shot down few planes, one being the “invisible” bomber. And allegedly damaged another one…
    And a T82 can do enough damage. A simple RPG can do enough damage…
    So how many people do you want to put to occupy Russia: Because if you start a war, you have to finish it and it easier to start than to finish a war…
    I can imagine the partisan in the vast forests, ambushing NATO line of communication, and the rasputitsa, putting all our beautiful tanks and material on hold… And if you pretend that a tank can’t be immobilise by mud it is because you never went in an armoured unit…

    About air superiority, during 2 months of intensive campaign, NATO succeeded to destroy 5 Serbian tanks…
    I saw the result of exercise and it not what the manufacturers pretend…

    NATO and free trade is all we need” Free trade is why NATO is not useful. We need the petrol, so we can’t use NATO.
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

    "I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
    "You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
    "Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
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    Vindicative son of a gun Member Jolt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Heavy Fighting in South Ossetia

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    So, it is OK for NATO to expend, but the Russians can’t.
    Russia does use in Georgia what NATO did in Kosovo.
    I am not in favour of Russia as such. As I said I was trained to fight the Red Army.

    However, the general hysteria because, due to the fact that the “democratically” elected President wanted to genocide a little bit and Russia jumped on the opportunity, is little bit too much.

    I don’t know if Russian Army is modern or not but with Russian material, the Serbian shot down few planes, one being the “invisible” bomber. And allegedly damaged another one…
    And a T82 can do enough damage. A simple RPG can do enough damage…
    So how many people do you want to put to occupy Russia: Because if you start a war, you have to finish it and it easier to start than to finish a war…
    I can imagine the partisan in the vast forests, ambushing NATO line of communication, and the rasputitsa, putting all our beautiful tanks and material on hold… And if you pretend that a tank can’t be immobilise by mud it is because you never went in an armoured unit…

    About air superiority, during 2 months of intensive campaign, NATO succeeded to destroy 5 Serbian tanks…
    I saw the result of exercise and it not what the manufacturers pretend…

    NATO and free trade is all we need” Free trade is why NATO is not useful. We need the petrol, so we can’t use NATO.
    I honestly don't believe that a country the size of Russia could be kept united in case it suffered defeats in West and East fronts. Most probably what would happen, would be a coup suceeded by a Civil War and several small nationalistic rebellions, with NATO picking sides and ending the war swiftly.
    BLARGH!

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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Heavy Fighting in South Ossetia

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    So, it is OK for NATO to expand, but the Russians can’t.
    That's right. Nato is a treaty organisation, whereas Russia is a country. Spot the essential difference, my friend. Russia has expanded quite a lot in her recent history, and none of it was pretty. Now all those little chickies have come home to roost. And they all want to join Nato.
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    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Heavy Fighting in South Ossetia

    De juro you're right. However, when you mass troops and materail near a paranoid neighbour, you shouldn't be surprise of a reaction, especially after a coup de Jarnac for Kosovo.
    You tell your paranoid neighbour you don't want to harm him but he can see a loaded weapon just behind your fence, you have to be really diplomatic.
    You don't give pretext to slap your kids, so you tell your kids NOT to pick up apples in his garden.
    And you keep a safe area and don't agressively gesticulate at his door...

    De juro, you can do all that, but a good doctor will tell you it not a think to do...
    Last edited by Brenus; 08-18-2008 at 13:23.
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

    "I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
    "You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
    "Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
    Sergeant Major Jackrum 10th Light Foot Infantery Regiment "Inns-and-Out"

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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Heavy Fighting in South Ossetia

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    And you keep a safe area and don't agressively gesticulate at his door...
    Sovereign countries can and should not be reduced to 'safe areas' for bullying neighbours. Russia has been used to such policies for far too long, which is why nearly all of its neighbours want to be safe from Russia.
    De juro, you can do all that, but a good doctor will tell you it not a think to do...
    A good doctor will treat causes, not alleviate symptoms.
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    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Heavy Fighting in South Ossetia

    In this case the neighbours wanted to expel violently without any regard to law and justice co-locataires relative to the neighbour.
    And as said in law and showed by NATO few years ago, possession is half of right.
    Then you decided if and what you want to give back and what price...

    You can treat in knowing treatment will be long.
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

    "I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
    "You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
    "Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
    Sergeant Major Jackrum 10th Light Foot Infantery Regiment "Inns-and-Out"

  10. #550
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Heavy Fighting in South Ossetia

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    In this case the neighbours wanted to expel violently without any regard to law and justice co-locataires relative to the neighbour.
    Both sides went too far at various points in the recent history of Georgia. Tbilisi wasn't exactly the only one to blame. The way the Russians have aided and abetted Ossetia's separatism through the years, i.a. by bombing Georgian territory, supporting Ossetian sniping and incursions into Georgia proper &cetera, is well documented by the OSCE, journalists and other observers. S. thought he could do a 'Krajina', his plans and most of his country have been ruined, and if they were really interested in a solution the Russians would now be satisfied and start serious negotiations.

    But they don't want to punish just Saakashvili or Georgia. They want to punish George Bush, Nato and the EU.

    EDIT
    I fear that we may have an even more serious problem on our hands that we thought. The Russian Prime Minister has promised that the withdrawal of Russian troops to pre-war positions would start today. It appears that they are, on the contrary, digging in at positions well inside Georgian territory. If this is what I fear it is, then we have either a duplicitous Prime Minister or, which is even worse, a Russian military that is no longer under civilian control.
    Last edited by Adrian II; 08-18-2008 at 19:49.
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    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Heavy Fighting in South Ossetia

    This is pretty much my narrative on global affairs.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    History's Back
    Ambitious autocracies, hesitant democracies.
    by Robert Kagan Link
    08/25/2008, Volume 013, Issue 46


    One wonders whether Russia's invasion of Georgia will finally end the dreamy complacency that took hold of the world's democracies after the close of the Cold War. The collapse of the Soviet Union offered for many the tantalizing prospect of a new kind of international order. The fall of the Communist empire and the apparent embrace of democracy by Russia seemed to augur a new era of global convergence. Great power conflict and competition were a thing of the past. Geo-economics had replaced geopolitics. Nations that traded with one another would be bound together by their interdependence and less likely to fight one another. Increasingly commercial societies would be more liberal both at home and abroad. Their citizens would seek prosperity and comfort and abandon the atavistic passions, the struggles for honor and glory, and the tribal hatreds that had produced conflict throughout history. Ideological conflict was also a thing of the past. As Francis Fukuyama famously put it, "At the end of history, there are no serious ideological competitors left to liberal democracy." And if there were an autocracy or two lingering around at the end of history, this was no cause for concern. They, too, would eventually be transformed as their economies modernized.

    Unfortunately, the core assumptions of the post-Cold War years have proved mistaken. The absence of great power competition, it turns out, was a brief aberration. Over the course of the 1990s, that competition reemerged as rising powers entered or reentered the field. First China, then India, set off on unprecedented bursts of economic growth, accompanied by incremental but substantial increases in military capacity, both conventional and nuclear. By the beginning of the 21st century, Japan had begun a slow economic recovery and was moving toward a more active international role both diplomatically and militarily. Then came Russia, rebounding from economic calamity to steady growth built on the export of its huge reserves of oil and natural gas.

    Nor has the growth of the Chinese and Russian economies produced the political liberalization that was once thought inevitable. Growing national wealth and autocracy have proven compatible, after all. Autocrats learn and adjust. The autocracies of Russia and China have figured out how to permit open economic activity while suppressing political activity. They have seen that people making money will keep their noses out of politics, especially if they know their noses will be cut off. New wealth gives autocracies a greater ability to control information--to monopolize television stations and to keep a grip on Internet traffic, for instance--often with the assistance of foreign corporations eager to do business with them.

    In the long run, rising prosperity may well produce political liberalism, but how long is the long run? It may be too long to have any strategic or geopolitical relevance. In the meantime, the new economic power of the autocracies has translated into real, usable geopolitical power on the world stage. In the 1990s the liberal democracies expected that a wealthier Russia would be a more liberal Russia, at home and abroad. But historically the spread of commerce and the acquisition of wealth by nations has not necessarily produced greater global harmony. Often it has only spurred greater global competition. The hope at the end of the Cold War was that nations would pursue economic integration as an alternative to geopolitical competition, that they would seek the "soft" power of commercial engagement and economic growth as an alternative to the "hard" power of military strength or geopolitical confrontation. But nations do not need to choose. There is another paradigm--call it "rich nation, strong army," the slogan of rising Meiji Japan at the end of the 19th century--in which nations seek economic integration and adaptation of Western institutions not in order to give up the geopolitical struggle but to wage it more successfully. The Chinese have their own phrase for this: "a prosperous country and a strong army."

    The rise of these two great power autocracies is reshaping the international scene. Nationalism, and the nation itself, far from being weakened by globalization, has returned with a vengeance. There are the ethnic nationalisms that continue to bubble up in the Balkans and in the former republics of the Soviet Union. But more significant is the return of great power nationalism. Instead of an imagined new world order, there are new geopolitical fault lines where the ambitions of great powers overlap and conflict and where the seismic events of the future are most likely to erupt.

    One of these fault lines runs along the western and southwestern frontiers of Russia. In Georgia, Ukraine, and Moldova, in the Baltic states of Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania, in Poland, Hungary, and the Czech Republic, in the Caucasus and Central Asia, and even in the Balkans, a contest for influence is under way between a resurgent Russia, on one side, and the European Union and the United States on the other. Instead of an anticipated zone of peace, western Eurasia has once again become a zone of competition, in which military power--pooh-poohed by postmodern Europeans--once again plays a role.

    Unfortunately, Europe is ill-equipped to respond to a problem that it never anticipated having to face. The European Union is deeply divided about Russia, with the nations on the frontline fearful and seeking reassurance, while others like France and Germany seek accommodation with Moscow. The fact is, Europe never expected to face this kind of challenge at the end of history. This great 21st-century entity, the EU, now confronts 19th-century power, and Europe's postmodern tools of foreign policy were not designed to address more traditional geopolitical challenges. There is a real question as to whether Europe is institutionally or temperamentally able to play the kind of geopolitical games in Russia's near-abroad that Russia is willing to play.

    There is some question about the United States, as well. At least some portion of American elite opinion has shifted from post-Cold War complacency, from the conviction that the world was naturally moving toward greater harmony, to despair and resignation and the belief that the United States and the world's democracies are powerless to meet the challenge of the rising great powers. Fukuyama and others counsel accommodation to Russian ambitions, on the grounds that there is now no choice. It is the post-American world. Having failed to imagine that the return of great power autocracies was possible, they now argue there is nothing to be done and the wise policy is to accommodate to this new global reality. Yet again, however, their imagination fails them. They do not see what accommodation of the great power autocracies may look like. Georgia provides a glimpse of that future.

    The world may not be about to embark on a new ideological struggle of the kind that dominated the Cold War. But the new era, rather than being a time of "universal values," will be one of growing tensions and sometimes confrontation between the forces of liberal democracy and the forces of autocracy.

    In fact, a global competition is under way. According to Russia's foreign minister, "For the first time in many years, a real competitive environment has emerged on the market of ideas" between different "value systems and development models." And the good news, from the Russian point of view, is that "the West is losing its monopoly on the globalization process." Today when Russians speak of a multipolar world, they are not only talking about the redistribution of power. It is also the competition of value systems and ideas that will provide "the foundation for a multipolar world order."

    International order does not rest on ideas and institutions alone. It is shaped by configurations of power. The spread of democracy in the last two decades of the 20th century was not merely the unfolding of certain ineluctable processes of economic and political development. The global shift toward liberal democracy coincided with the historical shift in the balance of power toward those nations and peoples who favored the liberal democratic idea, a shift that began with the triumph of the democratic powers over fascism in World War II and that was followed by a second triumph of the democracies over communism in the Cold War. The liberal international order that emerged after these two victories reflected the new overwhelming global balance in favor of liberal forces. But those victories were not inevitable, and they need not be lasting. Today, the reemergence of the great autocratic powers, along with the reactionary forces of Islamic radicalism, has weakened that order and threatens to weaken it further in the years and decades to come.

    Does the United States have the strength and ability to lead the democracies again in strengthening and advancing a liberal democratic international order? Despite all the recent noise about America's relative decline, the answer is most assuredly yes. If it is true, as some claim, that the United States over the past decade suffered from excessive confidence in its power to shape the world, the pendulum has now swung too far in the opposite direction.

    The apparent failure in Iraq convinced many people that the United States was weak, hated, and in a state of decline. Nor has anyone bothered to adjust that judgment now that the United States appears to be winning in Iraq. Yet by any of the usual measures of power, the United States is as strong today, even in relative terms, as it was in 2000. It remains the sole superpower, even as the other great powers get back on their feet. The military power of China and Russia has increased over the past decade, but American military power has increased more. America's share of the global economy has remained steady, 27 percent of global GDP in 2000 and 26 percent today. So where is the relative decline? So long as the United States remains at the center of the international economy, the predominant military power, and the leading apostle of the world's most popular political philosophy; so long as the American public continues to support American predominance, as it has consistently for six decades; and so long as potential challengers inspire more fear than sympathy among their neighbors, the structure of the international system should remain as the Chinese describe it: "one superpower and many great powers."

    If American predominance is unlikely to fade any time soon, moreover, it is partly because much of the world does not really want it to. Despite the opinion polls, America's relations with both old and new allies have actually strengthened in recent years. Despite predictions that other powers would begin to join together in an effort to balance against the rogue superpower, especially after the Iraq war, the trend has gone in the opposite direction. The rise of the great power autocracies has been gradually pushing the great power democracies back in the direction of the United States. Russia's invasion of Georgia will accelerate this trend, but it was already underway, even if masked by the international uproar over the Iraq war.

    On balance, traditional allies of the United States in East Asia and in Europe, while their publics may be more anti-American than in the past, are nevertheless pursuing policies that reflect more concern about the powerful, autocratic states in their midst than about the United States. The most remarkable change has occurred in India, a former ally of Moscow which today sees good relations with the United States as essential to achieving its broader strategic and economic goals, among them balancing China's rising power. Japanese leaders came to a similar conclusion a decade ago. In Europe there is also an unmistakable trend toward closer strategic relations with the United States, a trend that will be accelerated by Russian actions. A few years ago, Gerhard Schröder and Jacques Chirac flirted with drawing closer to Russia as a way of counterbalancing American power. But lately France, Germany, and the rest of Europe have been moving in the other direction. This is not out of renewed affection for the United States. It is a response to changing international circumstances and to lessons learned from the past. The Chirac-Schröder attempt to make Europe a counterweight to American power failed in part because the European Union's newest members from Central and Eastern Europe fear a resurgent Russia and insist on close strategic ties with Washington. That was true even before Russia invaded Georgia. Now their feeling of dependence on the United States will grow dramatically.

    What remains is for the United States to translate this growing concern into concerted action by the world's democracies. This won't be easy, given the strong tendencies, especially in Europe, to seek accommodation with autocratic Russia. But this is nothing new--even during the Cold War, France and Germany sometimes sought to stand somewhere between the United States and the Soviet Union. Over time, France and Germany will have no choice but to join the majority of EU members who once again worry about Moscow's intentions.

    So what to do? Instead of figuring out how to accommodate the powerful new autocracies, the United States and the world's other democracies need to begin thinking about how they can protect their interests and advance their principles in a world in which these are once again powerfully challenged. The world's democracies need to show solidarity with one another, and they need to support those trying to pry open a democratic space where it has been closing.

    That includes in the great power autocracies themselves. It is easy to look at China and Russia today and believe they are impervious to outside influence. But one should not overlook their fragility and vulnerability. These autocratic regimes may be stronger than they were in the past in terms of wealth and global influence, but they still live in a predominantly liberal era. That means they face an unavoidable problem of legitimacy. Chinese leaders race forward with their economy in fear that any slowing will be their undoing. They fitfully stamp out even the tiniest hints of political opposition because they live in fear of repeating the Soviet collapse and their own near-death experience in 1989. They fear foreign support for any internal political opposition more than they fear foreign invasion. In Russia, Putin strains to obliterate his opponents, even though they appear weak, because he fears that any sign of life in the opposition could bring his regime down.

    The world's democracies have an interest in keeping the hopes for democracy alive in Russia and China. The optimists in the early post-Cold War years were not wrong to believe that a liberalizing Russia and China would be better international partners. They were just wrong to believe that this evolution was inevitable. Today, excessive optimism has been replaced by excessive pessimism. Many Europeans insist that outside influences will have no effect on Russia. Yet, looking back on the Cold War, many of these same Europeans believe that the Helsinki Accords of the 1970s had a subtle but eventually profound impact on the evolution of the Soviet Union and the eastern bloc. Is Putin's Russia more impervious to such methods than Brezhnev's Soviet Union? Putin himself does not think so, or he wouldn't be so nervous about the democratic states on his borders. Nor do China's rulers, or they wouldn't spend billions policing Internet chat rooms and waging a campaign of repression against the Falun Gong.

    Whether or not China and Russia are susceptible to outside influence over time, for the moment their growing power and, in the case of Russia, the willingness to use it, pose a serious challenge that needs to be met with the same level-headed determination as previous such challenges. If Moscow is now bent on restoring its hegemony over its near neighbors, the United States and its European allies must provide those neighbors with support and protection. If China continues to expand its military capabilities, the United States must reassure China's neighbors of its own commitment to Asian security.

    The future is not determined. It is up for grabs. The international order in the coming decades will be shaped by those who have the power and the collective will to shape it. The great fallacy of our era has been the belief that a liberal and democratic international order would come about by the triumph of ideas alone or by the natural unfolding of human progress. Many believe the Cold War ended the way it did simply because the better worldview triumphed, as it had to, and that the international order that exists today is but the next stage in humanity's forward march from strife and aggression toward a peaceful and prosperous coexistence. They forget the many battles fought, both strategic and ideological, that produced that remarkable triumph.

    The illusion is just true enough to be dangerous. Of course there is strength in the liberal democratic idea and in the free market. But progress toward these ideals has never been inevitable. It is contingent on events and the actions of nations and peoples--battles won or lost, social movements successful or crushed, economic practices implemented or discarded.

    After the Second World War, another moment in history when hopes for a new kind of international order were rampant, Hans Morgenthau warned idealists against imagining that at some point "the final curtain would fall and the game of power politics would no longer be played." The struggle continued then, and it continues today. Six decades ago American leaders believed the United States had the ability and responsibility to use its power to prevent a slide back to the circumstances that had produced two world wars and innumerable national calamities. Reinhold Niebuhr, who always warned against Americans' ambitions and excessive faith in their own power, also believed, with a faith and ambition of his own, that "the world problem cannot be solved if America does not accept its full share of responsibility in solving it." Today the United States shares that responsibility with the rest of the democratic world, which is infinitely stronger than it was when World War II ended. The only question is whether the democratic world will once again rise to the challenge.

    Robert Kagan, a contributing editor to THE WEEKLY STANDARD, is the author most recently of The Return of History and the End of Dreams.
    "That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
    -Eric "George Orwell" Blair

    "If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
    (Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
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    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Heavy Fighting in South Ossetia

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II View Post
    EDIT
    I fear that we may have an even more serious problem on our hands that we thought. The Russian Prime Minister has promised that the withdrawal of Russian troops to pre-war positions would start today. It appears that they are, on the contrary, digging in at positions well inside Georgian territory. If this is what I fear it is, then we have either a duplicitous Prime Minister or, which is even worse, a Russian military that is no longer under civilian control.
    I wonder if Putin is trying out a "What are you going to do about it?" approach. He might be banking on us not doing anything besides making strongly worded statements. Maybe he's right.
    Last edited by Xiahou; 08-18-2008 at 19:59.
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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Heavy Fighting in South Ossetia

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou View Post
    I wonder if Putin is trying out a "What are you going to do about it?" approach. He might be banking on us not doing anything besides making strongly worded statements. Maybe he's right.
    Or maybe he is waiting for Ukraine to come apart at the seams as well.

    Man, I wish August would pass quickly..
    Last edited by Adrian II; 08-18-2008 at 20:04.
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    Default Re : Re: Heavy Fighting in South Ossetia

    Quote Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff View Post
    This is pretty much my narrative on global affairs.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    History's Back
    Ambitious autocracies, hesitant democracies.
    by Robert Kagan Link
    08/25/2008, Volume 013, Issue 46


    One wonders whether Russia's invasion of Georgia will finally end the dreamy complacency that took hold of the world's democracies after the close of the Cold War. The collapse of the Soviet Union offered for many the tantalizing prospect of a new kind of international order. The fall of the Communist empire and the apparent embrace of democracy by Russia seemed to augur a new era of global convergence. Great power conflict and competition were a thing of the past. Geo-economics had replaced geopolitics. Nations that traded with one another would be bound together by their interdependence and less likely to fight one another. Increasingly commercial societies would be more liberal both at home and abroad. Their citizens would seek prosperity and comfort and abandon the atavistic passions, the struggles for honor and glory, and the tribal hatreds that had produced conflict throughout history. Ideological conflict was also a thing of the past. As Francis Fukuyama famously put it, "At the end of history, there are no serious ideological competitors left to liberal democracy." And if there were an autocracy or two lingering around at the end of history, this was no cause for concern. They, too, would eventually be transformed as their economies modernized.

    Unfortunately, the core assumptions of the post-Cold War years have proved mistaken. The absence of great power competition, it turns out, was a brief aberration. Over the course of the 1990s, that competition reemerged as rising powers entered or reentered the field. First China, then India, set off on unprecedented bursts of economic growth, accompanied by incremental but substantial increases in military capacity, both conventional and nuclear. By the beginning of the 21st century, Japan had begun a slow economic recovery and was moving toward a more active international role both diplomatically and militarily. Then came Russia, rebounding from economic calamity to steady growth built on the export of its huge reserves of oil and natural gas.

    Nor has the growth of the Chinese and Russian economies produced the political liberalization that was once thought inevitable. Growing national wealth and autocracy have proven compatible, after all. Autocrats learn and adjust. The autocracies of Russia and China have figured out how to permit open economic activity while suppressing political activity. They have seen that people making money will keep their noses out of politics, especially if they know their noses will be cut off. New wealth gives autocracies a greater ability to control information--to monopolize television stations and to keep a grip on Internet traffic, for instance--often with the assistance of foreign corporations eager to do business with them.

    In the long run, rising prosperity may well produce political liberalism, but how long is the long run? It may be too long to have any strategic or geopolitical relevance. In the meantime, the new economic power of the autocracies has translated into real, usable geopolitical power on the world stage. In the 1990s the liberal democracies expected that a wealthier Russia would be a more liberal Russia, at home and abroad. But historically the spread of commerce and the acquisition of wealth by nations has not necessarily produced greater global harmony. Often it has only spurred greater global competition. The hope at the end of the Cold War was that nations would pursue economic integration as an alternative to geopolitical competition, that they would seek the "soft" power of commercial engagement and economic growth as an alternative to the "hard" power of military strength or geopolitical confrontation. But nations do not need to choose. There is another paradigm--call it "rich nation, strong army," the slogan of rising Meiji Japan at the end of the 19th century--in which nations seek economic integration and adaptation of Western institutions not in order to give up the geopolitical struggle but to wage it more successfully. The Chinese have their own phrase for this: "a prosperous country and a strong army."

    The rise of these two great power autocracies is reshaping the international scene. Nationalism, and the nation itself, far from being weakened by globalization, has returned with a vengeance. There are the ethnic nationalisms that continue to bubble up in the Balkans and in the former republics of the Soviet Union. But more significant is the return of great power nationalism. Instead of an imagined new world order, there are new geopolitical fault lines where the ambitions of great powers overlap and conflict and where the seismic events of the future are most likely to erupt.

    One of these fault lines runs along the western and southwestern frontiers of Russia. In Georgia, Ukraine, and Moldova, in the Baltic states of Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania, in Poland, Hungary, and the Czech Republic, in the Caucasus and Central Asia, and even in the Balkans, a contest for influence is under way between a resurgent Russia, on one side, and the European Union and the United States on the other. Instead of an anticipated zone of peace, western Eurasia has once again become a zone of competition, in which military power--pooh-poohed by postmodern Europeans--once again plays a role.

    Unfortunately, Europe is ill-equipped to respond to a problem that it never anticipated having to face. The European Union is deeply divided about Russia, with the nations on the frontline fearful and seeking reassurance, while others like France and Germany seek accommodation with Moscow. The fact is, Europe never expected to face this kind of challenge at the end of history. This great 21st-century entity, the EU, now confronts 19th-century power, and Europe's postmodern tools of foreign policy were not designed to address more traditional geopolitical challenges. There is a real question as to whether Europe is institutionally or temperamentally able to play the kind of geopolitical games in Russia's near-abroad that Russia is willing to play.

    There is some question about the United States, as well. At least some portion of American elite opinion has shifted from post-Cold War complacency, from the conviction that the world was naturally moving toward greater harmony, to despair and resignation and the belief that the United States and the world's democracies are powerless to meet the challenge of the rising great powers. Fukuyama and others counsel accommodation to Russian ambitions, on the grounds that there is now no choice. It is the post-American world. Having failed to imagine that the return of great power autocracies was possible, they now argue there is nothing to be done and the wise policy is to accommodate to this new global reality. Yet again, however, their imagination fails them. They do not see what accommodation of the great power autocracies may look like. Georgia provides a glimpse of that future.

    The world may not be about to embark on a new ideological struggle of the kind that dominated the Cold War. But the new era, rather than being a time of "universal values," will be one of growing tensions and sometimes confrontation between the forces of liberal democracy and the forces of autocracy.

    In fact, a global competition is under way. According to Russia's foreign minister, "For the first time in many years, a real competitive environment has emerged on the market of ideas" between different "value systems and development models." And the good news, from the Russian point of view, is that "the West is losing its monopoly on the globalization process." Today when Russians speak of a multipolar world, they are not only talking about the redistribution of power. It is also the competition of value systems and ideas that will provide "the foundation for a multipolar world order."

    International order does not rest on ideas and institutions alone. It is shaped by configurations of power. The spread of democracy in the last two decades of the 20th century was not merely the unfolding of certain ineluctable processes of economic and political development. The global shift toward liberal democracy coincided with the historical shift in the balance of power toward those nations and peoples who favored the liberal democratic idea, a shift that began with the triumph of the democratic powers over fascism in World War II and that was followed by a second triumph of the democracies over communism in the Cold War. The liberal international order that emerged after these two victories reflected the new overwhelming global balance in favor of liberal forces. But those victories were not inevitable, and they need not be lasting. Today, the reemergence of the great autocratic powers, along with the reactionary forces of Islamic radicalism, has weakened that order and threatens to weaken it further in the years and decades to come.

    Does the United States have the strength and ability to lead the democracies again in strengthening and advancing a liberal democratic international order? Despite all the recent noise about America's relative decline, the answer is most assuredly yes. If it is true, as some claim, that the United States over the past decade suffered from excessive confidence in its power to shape the world, the pendulum has now swung too far in the opposite direction.

    The apparent failure in Iraq convinced many people that the United States was weak, hated, and in a state of decline. Nor has anyone bothered to adjust that judgment now that the United States appears to be winning in Iraq. Yet by any of the usual measures of power, the United States is as strong today, even in relative terms, as it was in 2000. It remains the sole superpower, even as the other great powers get back on their feet. The military power of China and Russia has increased over the past decade, but American military power has increased more. America's share of the global economy has remained steady, 27 percent of global GDP in 2000 and 26 percent today. So where is the relative decline? So long as the United States remains at the center of the international economy, the predominant military power, and the leading apostle of the world's most popular political philosophy; so long as the American public continues to support American predominance, as it has consistently for six decades; and so long as potential challengers inspire more fear than sympathy among their neighbors, the structure of the international system should remain as the Chinese describe it: "one superpower and many great powers."

    If American predominance is unlikely to fade any time soon, moreover, it is partly because much of the world does not really want it to. Despite the opinion polls, America's relations with both old and new allies have actually strengthened in recent years. Despite predictions that other powers would begin to join together in an effort to balance against the rogue superpower, especially after the Iraq war, the trend has gone in the opposite direction. The rise of the great power autocracies has been gradually pushing the great power democracies back in the direction of the United States. Russia's invasion of Georgia will accelerate this trend, but it was already underway, even if masked by the international uproar over the Iraq war.

    On balance, traditional allies of the United States in East Asia and in Europe, while their publics may be more anti-American than in the past, are nevertheless pursuing policies that reflect more concern about the powerful, autocratic states in their midst than about the United States. The most remarkable change has occurred in India, a former ally of Moscow which today sees good relations with the United States as essential to achieving its broader strategic and economic goals, among them balancing China's rising power. Japanese leaders came to a similar conclusion a decade ago. In Europe there is also an unmistakable trend toward closer strategic relations with the United States, a trend that will be accelerated by Russian actions. A few years ago, Gerhard Schröder and Jacques Chirac flirted with drawing closer to Russia as a way of counterbalancing American power. But lately France, Germany, and the rest of Europe have been moving in the other direction. This is not out of renewed affection for the United States. It is a response to changing international circumstances and to lessons learned from the past. The Chirac-Schröder attempt to make Europe a counterweight to American power failed in part because the European Union's newest members from Central and Eastern Europe fear a resurgent Russia and insist on close strategic ties with Washington. That was true even before Russia invaded Georgia. Now their feeling of dependence on the United States will grow dramatically.

    What remains is for the United States to translate this growing concern into concerted action by the world's democracies. This won't be easy, given the strong tendencies, especially in Europe, to seek accommodation with autocratic Russia. But this is nothing new--even during the Cold War, France and Germany sometimes sought to stand somewhere between the United States and the Soviet Union. Over time, France and Germany will have no choice but to join the majority of EU members who once again worry about Moscow's intentions.

    So what to do? Instead of figuring out how to accommodate the powerful new autocracies, the United States and the world's other democracies need to begin thinking about how they can protect their interests and advance their principles in a world in which these are once again powerfully challenged. The world's democracies need to show solidarity with one another, and they need to support those trying to pry open a democratic space where it has been closing.

    That includes in the great power autocracies themselves. It is easy to look at China and Russia today and believe they are impervious to outside influence. But one should not overlook their fragility and vulnerability. These autocratic regimes may be stronger than they were in the past in terms of wealth and global influence, but they still live in a predominantly liberal era. That means they face an unavoidable problem of legitimacy. Chinese leaders race forward with their economy in fear that any slowing will be their undoing. They fitfully stamp out even the tiniest hints of political opposition because they live in fear of repeating the Soviet collapse and their own near-death experience in 1989. They fear foreign support for any internal political opposition more than they fear foreign invasion. In Russia, Putin strains to obliterate his opponents, even though they appear weak, because he fears that any sign of life in the opposition could bring his regime down.

    The world's democracies have an interest in keeping the hopes for democracy alive in Russia and China. The optimists in the early post-Cold War years were not wrong to believe that a liberalizing Russia and China would be better international partners. They were just wrong to believe that this evolution was inevitable. Today, excessive optimism has been replaced by excessive pessimism. Many Europeans insist that outside influences will have no effect on Russia. Yet, looking back on the Cold War, many of these same Europeans believe that the Helsinki Accords of the 1970s had a subtle but eventually profound impact on the evolution of the Soviet Union and the eastern bloc. Is Putin's Russia more impervious to such methods than Brezhnev's Soviet Union? Putin himself does not think so, or he wouldn't be so nervous about the democratic states on his borders. Nor do China's rulers, or they wouldn't spend billions policing Internet chat rooms and waging a campaign of repression against the Falun Gong.

    Whether or not China and Russia are susceptible to outside influence over time, for the moment their growing power and, in the case of Russia, the willingness to use it, pose a serious challenge that needs to be met with the same level-headed determination as previous such challenges. If Moscow is now bent on restoring its hegemony over its near neighbors, the United States and its European allies must provide those neighbors with support and protection. If China continues to expand its military capabilities, the United States must reassure China's neighbors of its own commitment to Asian security.

    The future is not determined. It is up for grabs. The international order in the coming decades will be shaped by those who have the power and the collective will to shape it. The great fallacy of our era has been the belief that a liberal and democratic international order would come about by the triumph of ideas alone or by the natural unfolding of human progress. Many believe the Cold War ended the way it did simply because the better worldview triumphed, as it had to, and that the international order that exists today is but the next stage in humanity's forward march from strife and aggression toward a peaceful and prosperous coexistence. They forget the many battles fought, both strategic and ideological, that produced that remarkable triumph.

    The illusion is just true enough to be dangerous. Of course there is strength in the liberal democratic idea and in the free market. But progress toward these ideals has never been inevitable. It is contingent on events and the actions of nations and peoples--battles won or lost, social movements successful or crushed, economic practices implemented or discarded.

    After the Second World War, another moment in history when hopes for a new kind of international order were rampant, Hans Morgenthau warned idealists against imagining that at some point "the final curtain would fall and the game of power politics would no longer be played." The struggle continued then, and it continues today. Six decades ago American leaders believed the United States had the ability and responsibility to use its power to prevent a slide back to the circumstances that had produced two world wars and innumerable national calamities. Reinhold Niebuhr, who always warned against Americans' ambitions and excessive faith in their own power, also believed, with a faith and ambition of his own, that "the world problem cannot be solved if America does not accept its full share of responsibility in solving it." Today the United States shares that responsibility with the rest of the democratic world, which is infinitely stronger than it was when World War II ended. The only question is whether the democratic world will once again rise to the challenge.

    Robert Kagan, a contributing editor to THE WEEKLY STANDARD, is the author most recently of The Return of History and the End of Dreams.
    Thanks for posting that, Tuff. To quote a Texas proverb that I recently learned: God kills a kitten every time I agree with an American neo-conservative. (I mean Kagan)
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  15. #555
    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re : Re: Heavy Fighting in South Ossetia

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    Thanks for posting that, Tuff. To quote a Texas proverb that I recently learned: God kills a kitten every time I agree with an American neo-conservative. (I mean Kagan)
    Hehe. I try to distance myself from neo-cons whenever they show signs of an expendable view of human life, but I agree with this narrative too much to disagree with them out of hand.
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    lurker Member JR-'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Heavy Fighting in South Ossetia

    a kitten just died, that is an excellent article.

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    Formerly: SwedishFish Member KarlXII's Avatar
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    Default Re: Heavy Fighting in South Ossetia

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080818/...georgia_russia

    Article for what Adrian already mentioned.

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    Formerly: SwedishFish Member KarlXII's Avatar
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    Default Re: Heavy Fighting in South Ossetia

    According to my article, Russian forces are smashing barricades and frolicking near the capital, and the Georgians have done nothing, actually following the cease-fire. Funny.
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    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: Heavy Fighting in South Ossetia

    Quote Originally Posted by SwedishFish View Post
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080818/...georgia_russia

    Article for what Adrian already mentioned.

    God, I love Russians.
    BBC seems to disagree, at least a little.

    The BBC observed five Russian armoured personnel carriers, each with around a dozen men, heading in the direction of the capital.

    However, there was no suggestion that they ventured any further than the village of Igoeti, where the furthest Russian checkpoint is located.

  20. #560
    Formerly: SwedishFish Member KarlXII's Avatar
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    Default Re: Heavy Fighting in South Ossetia

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars View Post
    Oh come on. Weren't the Russians supposed to pull out by now? They said Monday, it's Monday in America, it's Tuesday in Moscow. They have not left, nor made any attempt. Though they may not want to take that town, they are still roaming around, destroying barricades, just moving with free will while Georgians watch. How can you still defend them?
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  21. #561
    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: Heavy Fighting in South Ossetia

    Quote Originally Posted by SwedishFish View Post
    Oh come on. Weren't the Russians supposed to pull out by now? They said Monday, it's Monday in America, it's Tuesday in Moscow. They have not left, nor made any attempt. Though they may not want to take that town, they are still roaming around, destroying barricades, just moving with free will while Georgians watch. How can you still defend them?
    According to Russia troops were supposed to begin to move out, and moving out like that does take a few days. Troops have begun to move from Georgia proper back into South Ossetia.

  22. #562
    Formerly: SwedishFish Member KarlXII's Avatar
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    Default Re: Heavy Fighting in South Ossetia

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars View Post
    According to Russia troops were supposed to begin to move out, and moving out like that does take a few days. Troops have begun to move from Georgia proper back into South Ossetia.
    Your article, my article, and most every article out there say otherwise.
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  23. #563
    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: Heavy Fighting in South Ossetia

    Quote Originally Posted by SwedishFish View Post
    Your article, my article, and most every article out there say otherwise.
    Quote Originally Posted by BBC
    A spokesman for the Russian defence ministry, Lt-Gen Nikolai Uvarov, told BBC News that troops were being withdrawn from Georgia and the process would take "days not weeks".
    Basically, Russia says it is withdrawing troops to South Ossetia and Russia, and Georgia disagrees. So we can't be sure yet until we have independant reports that state, for sure, that Russia is not withdrawing.
    Last edited by Evil_Maniac From Mars; 08-19-2008 at 02:55.

  24. #564
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Heavy Fighting in South Ossetia

    Putin should tell me in german, he speaks our wonderful language, I'd believe his every word.


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  25. #565
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Heavy Fighting in South Ossetia

    Isn't it wonderful? Condi has reached 'peace for our time' with Prime Minister Medvedev. He signed a piece of paper and the UN Security Council is going to vote on it. I'm all excited!

    Not.

    On the ground Russian troops have advanced to within 25 miles of Tbilisi, they are blowing up bridges, docks and offices, starting fires and destroying other human and physical infrastructure all over the country.

    Dead Georgian soldiers are left to rot in the sun, captive Georgian soldiers are paraded through the streets, forced to work for the Ossetian irregulars and publicly abused. All this comes from western journalists and other outside observers, not from Georgian authorities, and they have the pictures to show for.

    Moscow has also announced that Georgians will not be allowed to return to their homes in Ossetian territory. That's ethnic cleansing in the full legal sense, and we have it black on white from the highest Russian authorities. They are also giving free reign to the irregular scum from Ossetia, Chechnya &cetera that follows in the wake of their troops.

    'Peacekeepers' my foot.

    We could have had troops on the ground by now to teach them to behave, politely show them the way back to Moscow, chase away the irregulars, and assure stability to the country with an eye to (re)opening pipelines that are essential to our future.
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  26. #566
    Formerly: SwedishFish Member KarlXII's Avatar
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    Default Re: Heavy Fighting in South Ossetia

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II View Post
    Isn't it wonderful? Condi has reached 'peace for our time' with Prime Minister Medvedev. He signed a piece of paper and the UN Security Council is going to vote on it. I'm all excited!

    Not.

    On the ground Russian troops have advanced to within 25 miles of Tbilisi, they are blowing up bridges, docks and offices, starting fires and destroying other human and physical infrastructure all over the country.

    Dead Georgian soldiers are left to rot in the sun, captive Georgian soldiers are paraded through the streets, forced to work for the Ossetian irregulars and publicly abused. All this comes from western journalists and other outside observers, not from Georgian authorities, and they have the pictures to show for.

    Moscow has also announced that Georgians will not be allowed to return to their homes in Ossetian territory. That's ethnic cleansing in the full legal sense, and we have it black on white from the highest Russian authorities. They are also giving free reign to the irregular scum from Ossetia, Chechnya &cetera that follows in the wake of their troops.

    'Peacekeepers' my foot.

    We could have had troops on the ground by now to teach them to behave, politely show them the way back to Moscow, chase away the irregulars, and assure stability to the country with an eye to (re)opening pipelines that are essential to our future.
    Guess who's going to be using there veto power?

    Anyway, once Russia goes for, say, the Ukraine, then the higher ups may actually care. Maybe .
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  27. #567

    Default Re: Heavy Fighting in South Ossetia

    Maybe when the Russians take London NATO will act.

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  28. #568
    Formerly: SwedishFish Member KarlXII's Avatar
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    Default Re: Heavy Fighting in South Ossetia

    Quote Originally Posted by Ignoramus View Post
    Maybe when the Russians take London NATO will act.
    They'd be freeing the English from the English in that case
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  29. #569

    Default Re: Heavy Fighting in South Ossetia

    Maybe when the Russians take London NATO will act.
    Good point . Is that because London is in Britain and Britain is part NATO .
    I heard a rumour that ANZUS is going to act when Putin threatens Nieu

  30. #570
    lurker Member JR-'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Heavy Fighting in South Ossetia


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