Improved more realistic cities!!

[cmacq]

I noticed that as well, as an enemy coming from the mainland is forced into the narrow wrist of land on the western approach. I even omitted one of the three landward picket walls. Also remember this model is scaled down to fit EB. Although the fortifications at Late Ptolemaic Alexandria were not as complex as those at Late Punic Carthage, based on the model I made, the topography indicates it would be a nearly impossible nut to crack, if it was well defended. By land it can only be approached on a very narrow front. At a higher level, its placement in the western delta also suggests it was difficult to get to by land, when advancing from Asia.

This view is high and looking north.

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo...03965274sOFQWT

This is a view from the south wall and port looking low and northwest.

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo...03965274OBLFTw

The scale is about 1/10 the actual size, I believe.

CmacQ

[Ludens]

I dont understand why hard coding exists...all it seems to do is stop better games like this making it even better. Unless its a copyright issue...

Hardcode has become a bit of a swearword since modders started using it to explain why they couldn't add certain features. Some people then assumed it was put in the game-engine on purpose to block modding attempts. In fact, it simply means the game-engine itself. Hardcode are those part of the game or program not changeable by modding, because modding means altering the data files while programming is changing the engine itself.

What modders mean when they complain about hard-codes is that they want more aspects of the game to be put in the data files, instead of being hidden in the engine itself, like the max. number of factions is. They don't complain about there being hardcodes, because those are simply part of programming. In fact, hardcodes are the core of the program itself.

The obvious question then is why do game-designers feel the need to hide aspects of the game in the data-files? I can't really answer that because I am not much of a programmer, but I do suspect that processing speed is one reason. After all, if it's not in the engine itself the program has to look for it and then translate it into something the computer will understand. This wouldn't make much of a difference if just one factor was outside the program files, but if you want many things to be moddable it may seriously slow a program down. Also, it is not as if there is an instruction in the program that says "if faction number exceeds 31, then CTD". M2:TW has been made with 31 factions in mind, so you'd probably need to change many parts of the code to allow for more. This may also result in memory uptake for these faction, whether they are used or not.

[TheGlobalizer]

Yep, a big part is just to put a cap on the memory requirements of the software. Each time you add variability, you add both to the complexity of the program and the amount of data you need to load into and cycle through the memory.

There's a reason why sophisticated scientific modelling software only runs on supercomputers -- there are so many variables that must be accounted for that a personal computer simply cannot handle it.

That said, some "caps" (like culture) seem more related to how the game was composed originally -- I'm not sure why the caps couldn't be expanded a bit with minimal impact. But, that probably depends on how the variables are treated within the code.

[cmacq]

The following model is the Punic city of Lilybaeum. The fortifacation here were far less complex to those built at Carthage.

This view from the east looking west. Again the scale is about 1:10.

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo...03965274iRhxjb



CmacQ

[cmacq]

This model is a reconstruction of the wall plan of Late Ptolemaic Alexandria. The view is high and looking northwest. Again the scale of the plan is about 1:10 and is designed overall to fit a EB battlefield. The grey areas are lower class residential and commercial urban areas set within a grid pattern. These were largely outside the main fortification. One will note a canal that runs from the extreme east end of the model, immediately south of the city and then turns north to exit into the Mediterranean. I believe several bridges crossed this feature from the south and west. We also have the Pharos Island with a Greek fort, a a small town in grey, the Heptastadion causeway with bridges at either end, and a second Greek fort immediately to the west on the mainland. We also have the lighthouse at the east end of the Pharos Island.

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo...03965274jUFNZp

This view is low and from the Pharos Island looking east towards Alexandria.

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo...03965274FFIAnd

CmacQ

[/Bean\]

@Ludens and everyone else

So do you mean that, if you knew about programming, you could change/move data that was hard-coded into data files, thus making it moddible (sp)?

[Hax]

@Ludens and everyone else

So do you mean that, if you knew about programming, you could change/move data that was hard-coded into data files, thus making it moddible (sp)?

Well, technically it is possible, but you have to change the .exe file for that, which is forbidden.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Hardcode has become a bit of a swearword since modders started using it to explain why they couldn't add certain features. Some people then assumed it was put in the game-engine on purpose to block modding attempts. In fact, it simply means the game-engine itself. Hardcode are those part of the game or program not changeable by modding, because modding means altering the data files while programming is changing the engine itself.

What modders mean when they complain about hard-codes is that they want more aspects of the game to be put in the data files, instead of being hidden in the engine itself, like the max. number of factions is. They don't complain about there being hardcodes, because those are simply part of programming. In fact, hardcodes are the core of the program itself.

Yes, hardcode is, well just that: rock solid hard code you can't simply replace with your Notepad style text editor.

The obvious question then is why do game-designers feel the need to hide aspects of the game in the data-files? I can't really answer that because I am not much of a programmer, but I do suspect that processing speed is one reason. After all, if it's not in the engine itself the program has to look for it and then translate it into something the computer will understand. This wouldn't make much of a difference if just one factor was outside the program files, but if you want many things to be moddable it may seriously slow a program down. Also, it is not as if there is an instruction in the program that says "if faction number exceeds 31, then CTD". M2:TW has been made with 31 factions in mind, so you'd probably need to change many parts of the code to allow for more. This may also result in memory uptake for these faction, whether they are used or not.

Yes, it's the cost of reading, parsing etc. etc. which makes it beneficial to store as much as possible in a single file. It comes at the cost of greater flexibility; but this is not an issue if you 'pack' all these files into one. Also one big file allows for better/easier compression and (potentially) encryption. Keep in mind that the harddisk which is where most of the I/O operations go to, is easily 1000 times slower than your RAM is -- hence it becomes very interesting to see if you can speed up the I/O by constructions such as memory mapped files: which is also significantly easier with one big file. For an example: the swap or pagefile your OS uses, usually that is just one big memory mapped file (directory).

[/Bean\]

Ah so the programming/hard-coded bit is the copyrighted data? This makes sense now, thanks guys

[eddy_purpus]

Learn how and help us. Its pointless requesting something, its not like we don't think a lot about this game. Realistic cities is an obvious area where we could improve, we just don't have the manpower or skills to do this.

Foot

he is not requesting it , he is just asking if it is possible , and of course , who doesnt want to learn to do these mods , its very c0ol but some of us dont have the time to work in em

[Space_Ed]

Cmacq- Thos city plans are exactly the kind of thing I meant when I opened this thread. If you could do that type of thing for EB2 that would be far far better than what it is currently like in EB1. Even if the walls are 'bookmarked' and cant evolve I think that its worth sacrificing the development of the walls for these permanent and much more realistic structures.

[rorarii]

I dont know anyyythhiinnggg about how this might be done but I think it would be good if the cities and settlements could be given more character...

For example: Rome was founded on 7 hills and had rich areas and very poor areas.

I think it would be good if some cities had run down slums with graphitti on the walls etc, maybe messy streets and that type of thing.

I don't think you guys would be able to do this but to me it seems obvious that the appearence and realism of the cities would be improved if some had historically accurate rivers running through them and streams.

I think it would be possible to design slums as one 'building.' Slums should have unorganised messy streets and so the slums shouldnt be organised neatly into a grid like richer parts of some of the settlements.

Would it be possible to have a forum in Rome etc?

Space Ed, in my mod Rome will be represented by 7 settlements (hills) - The palatine will be for Aristocrats and will only train Eques (knights) and Triarii, The Aventine will be a kind of slum, for poorer class romans - and will only train Accensi and Rorarii (light troops). The Quirinal / Viminal and probably Esquiline .. Caere???? will be middle class areas for training Hastati and Princeps. (see latest update)

I'd appriciate any comments on the pro and cons of my approach from you guys, you seem to know what's going on in the TW world.

R

BTW, having the ACTUAL city of Carthage and be able to set seige to it, would be the ultimate in Ancient wargaming as far as i'm concerned .. to attack the 3 walls!

[Space_Ed]

I've been having a dabble of M2TW the last few days. I think there are definately some buildings that wont look out of place at all in EB. The really old skool european huts and the south american low dwellings could definately work in pre-Roman europe in EB2. I think the makers of M2TW have got it wrong in some parts though. Theres tudor style buildings in the 1100s. Eh? I'm not historian but I am English. That can't be right. But I do think that if those buildings were edited a little bit they could probably work in the EB time frame without too much effort. So I think you guys are ok for basic western european dwellings. I think theres some good ones in the Crusader campaign too that will work for the eastern provinces. So I don't think every building will have to be modded to fit but I think temples, palaces and possibly Greek homes will have to be designed from scratch. This is my opinion based on my short foray into M2TW (which btw is nowhere near as good as the current EB).

[Mithridates VI Eupator]

I agree!

Some M2TW buildings would actually work fine in EB, but some things, such as churches and tudor-houses, look a bit weird. The eastern settlements could work too. But it might bnot be necessary to redo all buildings. If the EB team feels that it is worth the effort, I won't complain, though...

[keravnos]

@ cmacq,

I cannot say "Thank you" enough times for your work. If there is any way we can use what you create, we will. Just keep on creating it.

Btw, I know there have been excavations going on in Taxila. Has a map of the ancient city (or environs) been developped?

[cmacq]

sorry,

been a bit consumed by work this week. I'll look into it. If I remember correctly, thats the upper Indus valley, right?

[keravnos]

sorry,

been a bit consumed by work this week. I'll look into it. If I remember correctly, thats the upper Indus valley, right?

Indeed.

Anyways, whichever city you can create (that exists in EB), please do so. We will deffinitely use them, IF available editors exist so that we can modify cities and still allow EB 2 to run.

[Majd il-Romani]

This model is a reconstruction of the wall plan of Late Ptolemaic Alexandria. The view is high and looking northwest. Again the scale of the plan is about 1:10 and is designed overall to fit a EB battlefield. The grey areas are lower class residential and commercial urban areas set within a grid pattern. These were largely outside the main fortification. One will note a canal that runs from the extreme east end of the model, immediately south of the city and then turns north to exit into the Mediterranean. I believe several bridges crossed this feature from the south and west. We also have the Pharos Island with a Greek fort, a a small town in grey, the Heptastadion causeway with bridges at either end, and a second Greek fort immediately to the west on the mainland. We also have the lighthouse at the east end of the Pharos Island.

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo...03965274jUFNZp

This view is low and from the Pharos Island looking east towards Alexandria.

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo...03965274FFIAnd

CmacQ

When I saw that picture, I realized that in M2 castles, the walls are almost exactly the same as those pictures!

https://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a...enTd/eng21.jpg

http://blog.core10.co.uk/img/medieva...ige_attack.jpg

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/...%3Bmore&page=6 (should be the top right one, sorry)

if you look at these, you see that the castle walls form a perimeter around the city, and then there is a smaller one protecting the core of the town. This could be used to accuratey represent cities like Carthage & Alexandria. Just turn them into castles.

[Ghaseken]

I dont know anyyythhiinnggg about how this might be done but I think it would be good if the cities and settlements could be given more character...

For example: Rome was founded on 7 hills and had rich areas and very poor areas.

I think it would be good if some cities had run down slums with graphitti on the walls etc, maybe messy streets and that type of thing.

I don't think you guys would be able to do this but to me it seems obvious that the appearence and realism of the cities would be improved if some had historically accurate rivers running through them and streams.

I think it would be possible to design slums as one 'building.' Slums should have unorganised messy streets and so the slums shouldnt be organised neatly into a grid like richer parts of some of the settlements.

Would it be possible to have a forum in Rome etc?

Thats a pretty good idea. but i dont think it will work

[cmacq]

When I saw that picture, I realized that in M2 castles, the walls are almost exactly the same as those pictures!

https://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a...enTd/eng21.jpg

http://blog.core10.co.uk/img/medieva...ige_attack.jpg

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/...%3Bmore&page=6 (should be the top right one, sorry)

if you look at these, you see that the castle walls form a perimeter around the city, and then there is a smaller one protecting the core of the town. This could be used to accuratey represent cities like Carthage & Alexandria. Just turn them into castles.

Majd il-Romani,

I say, you may be on to something there. That seems very workable. Indeed, the basic design of the last one does look very much like Alexandria, but can the land forms be changed at all?



CmacQ

[a completely inoffensive name]

I love the idea, I love the work cmacq has put into it, I love this whole thread actually. Very nice pictures, I really hope to see them implemented.

[Majd il-Romani]

Majd il-Romani,

I say, you may be on to something there. That seems very workable. Indeed, the basic design of the last one does look very much like Alexandria, but can the land forms be changed at all?



CmacQ

whaddya mean by land forms?

[hoom]

Nice work CmacQ, I love these sorts of reconstructions

I'm curious about where that Carthage layout comes from?
I've seen that layout in a couple of places but haven't been able to find where its from.
Lancel's Carthage: A History shows a very much different layout & he seems to be pretty sure there is little actual evidence of the real layout.
Has there been more evidence found recently which backs up that Carthage layout?

[Space_Ed]

Nice work CmacQ, I love these sorts of reconstructions

I'm curious about where that Carthage layout comes from?
I've seen that layout in a couple of places but haven't been able to find where its from.
Lancel's Carthage: A History shows a very much different layout & he seems to be pretty sure there is little actual evidence of the real layout.
Has there been more evidence found recently which backs up that Carthage layout?

I found out about the wall layout from Wikipedia. Doesn't make it true mind, but it means it passed the monitors. I didn't check any of the sources.



EDIT: "Jeeez how would you attack that place!?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carthage

[cmacq]

I used a number of sources for the walls, plus a satellite photo as a base map. I matched up evidence of wall fragments on the photo based on the locations proposed in the sources (these often based on gates). Of the Punic city, the location and extent of the harbor area is very solid, the location and extent of the interior acropolis is good, the location and extent of the southern portion of the city is fair, the location and extent of the necropolis is solid, and the location and extent of the northern partition of the city is so-so. I'll get back to you later, work awaits.




CmacQ

[Boyar Son]

Well MTW2 has some ruins from the Roman Empire showing up in battles for scenery! use that lol.

[a completely inoffensive name]

What has been the progress on this so far?

[Megas Methuselah]

Oh, this is so kool. I'd love to see this implemented in EB2.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Probably won't be until later versions though, just by looking at the amount of work it will need to be implemented.

[Megas Methuselah]

Probably won't be until later versions though, just by looking at the amount of work it will need to be implemented.

I assume you mean that they'll be excluded from beta's. I'm ok with that. I just hope they are implemented, eventually.