MTW-Redux Beta Released!

**Joh** · 10-06-2008, 09:14

Originally Posted by Axalon

Joh: quite an entrance! Hehe! Holding the fort the very first thing you did here! My thanks and welcome to you, Joh!

Well, you know, sometimes you just have to give something back

.

Anyhow, just for your info, I spent a fortune in dark chocolate (not flowers) and was then allowed by headquarters to use my good old computer (related to http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...96#post3715296). Of course, I could not wait until the release of VI upgrade, so I have comments on both the pre and post "patch" releases. And yes, as you could have guessed, I am using the VI2.01 version.

First of all, installation worked flawlessly, so no complains there. Stability is just a charm, no problem whatsoever. I read somewhere about the "clone" bug, but I do not think I have suffered from it (anyway since I do not really know what that is this is just a guess).

Pre VI-Upgrade campaign
Playing with Italy on hard (I know I am a sissy, but I had not played MTW for more than 4-5 years). I found it rather easy, as money rolls in through Venice (4.5k a turn now). I must have played something like 50 turns/years (??? sorry but I do not even know whether that is the same). Managed to take all the Italian peninsula and Sicily, nowadays Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina, South France, Crete, Rhodes and Malta islands (Cyprus was captured by the Saracens) and Milan. Campaign bullets, aka my thoughts (most likely some are hardcoded issues):

Italy gets too much money (don't know after VI upgrade)
AI cannot handle see trade, my ships are the only ones there (after getting rid of some nasty pirates) creating a trade network covering most of the map. Maybe sea trade needs to be reworked or tunned down for the player?
Italy is the richest, strongest and most developed country in the game.
Islands did not have any garrison (just disembark and the province is yours)
High-tech Italian units are inexpensive and easy to get (maybe related to first point?)
No wars apart from my own have broken out, but there are some MAJOR standing armies out there
What's up with all those alliances between everybody?
Abbey picture which has been mentioned and fixed

Post VI-upgrade campaign
Playing with the Russians on hard (yeah, read above comment). So far, played ~75 turns/years. Ok, I did NOT find this one easy. Money is very difficult to come by, cheap troops are not that good and there are some "scripted events" that did not make it easy at all. The initial development is not that good and it is difficult to find funds to improve your provinces, which means you will see the "not enough funds" quite often.
Regarding stage, I own the north-east part of the map, from Lithuania and Kiev to Khazar (Lithuania was thereby eliminated by Russian might). Only recently I managed to start some sea-trade network that is giving me some money. Novgorod is my best province now (2k per turn), followed by Livonia (spelling???) and Finland (which is a crappy province, so you can imagine the rest of the empire). My thoughts:

Civil Wars. Don't think they were there in vanilla MTW/VI. They are THE BEST feature I have found in Redux so far, mostly for the role playing kind of players. They can be devastating for your empire though. After two plots against my King/Prince, I just found out I have to kill any low-loyalty heir in my kingdom. Since then, I have been doing a lot of suicide missions .
Again, AI cannot handle see trade, my ships are the only ones there (this time, I was not even bothered by pirates, just a single ship) creating a trade network covering most of the map. Maybe sea trade needs to be reworked or tunned down for the player?
High-tech Russian units. They might be good, but they are so damned expensive (purchase and upkeep) I cannot even think about buying them. Maybe tune down a bit? I do not know what is going to happen when I have to fight some large Catholic power, whose units are supposed to be better.
Again, too many alliances between nations. Everybody is allied to everybody (ok, almost since I lost some allies when I attacked Lithuania)
Now, here is a good surprise. AI HAS BEEN QUITE ACTIVE. Portugal was destroyed by the Moors, Hungary by Poland (???), Poland was displaced from the Baltic by the Norse/Danes, England has finally conquered the whole island, and the Byzantines look really threatening on my southern borders.
The Moors are the richest, the French the strongest and the HRE is the most advanced.
I keep on discovering assassins from the Moors, sometimes several a turn.
All-and-all, a very interesting campaign.

Well, definitely no game breaking bugs, or even annoying bugs, just minor misspells here and there (specifically verbal tenses but that was to be expected from a Scandinavian

. Sorry had to mention it, living in DK and sharing office with a Norwegian, so they laugh about my English pronunciation and I do it about their English grammar).

Ok, that was all for now. Sorry for the long post and personal comments, but since this seems to be a very specific thread I would not imagine anybody getting too upset about that

.

Cheers everybody,

Joh

**Axalon** · 10-06-2008, 21:51

Hi there Joh,

I don’t care about posts being big, just as long as they are interesting, which I think your post is. I can only whish that we got more of these here at the redux corner (and I do appreciate that you bothered to write and post in your remarks and thoughts. I want more of that around here. And especially at the TWC thread, oh boy could it use some of that!). Not only is it more fun and interesting for me to read, but far more importantly it provides valuable perspectives to all redux players! “Are the Italians to easy”? “Is the HRE is impossible to play?”, “how do I survive with Spain?”, “French cavalry rocks!”, that sort of thing. I would actually like to have a more debate-ish climate here at the redux area, because I am not that enthusiastic on the prospect that almost everything is dependant on me to make things happen and going around here. As in we limit ourselves to various problems with the game-program itself and install issues and all that stuff (which of course should be sorted out!). And, as much as I like to help out and answer various in-game questions of different kinds, I feel that it is also too dependant on me, and I don’t want that. I want a vivid thread with several debates going regarding reduxed who knows what, without me taking part in it all, if you understand what I mean.

Now some general comments on your post then; as you already said many things here are hardcoded issues, trade being one of the most obvious. In the VI-version of redux trade is roughly cut about 50% to at least contain that problem somewhat. I actually don’t dare to cut it anymore, at least not for now. The firm alliance politics all over Europe are also one these things that I cant do much about. It’s just like the original; everybody wants to be allies with everybody, regardless of religion and such stuff. Oh, I call it turns as well… The only years I have ever played was in Shogun-TW.

I also got some more "detailed remarks" for you hidden in the spoiler below, because it's all "so secret" you know.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

Ok, that a wrap for this time Joh! Again, thanks for sharing and posting in your remarks and experiences with redux with the rest of us!

Cheers!
-------
Martok, I would love to help you out if you are still having problems but, I must have some more and additional Intel to be able to do that. If things have worked out for you, splendid, but please post in that fact so I can consider the matter solved and closed (to me it is the only acceptable option).

**Martok** · 10-07-2008, 05:17

Originally Posted by Axalon

THE FOOLS INSTALL GUIDE!
----------------------------
From one thing to another, this is for all you guys who have (or will have) trouble installing redux I have done a little something to seriously combat those issues from now on, and hopefully this will be the end of it. I guess that only time will tell if that’s true, but that is what I am hoping for here. Now, here is my penance for not being clear enough regarding these things (hopefully I am now), so without further a due and fresh out from the redux lab, here is “the fools install guide”. Enjoy!

Is this clear enough for everyone?!?

- Cheers
-----------
BTW, the redux “Superfix V.1.1” will be released within 24hrs.

Okay. Obviously, I'm still doing something incorrectly here.

I tried installation method #1 (the red version), but then the game simply refused to start. And yes, I did make sure that both files were the same name (I named them both Redux -- Total War).

After reinstalling the game from scratch again, I then tried installation method #2 (the blue version). The game starts up just fine....but it's just the regular Viking Invasion (2.01 version). There's no indication of any kind that the Redux Mod has been installed.

**Joh** · 10-07-2008, 16:02

@Martok

I will just focus on the red model (the one I used). I am talking by heart, but I think I will get it right. On a side note, adding unmatched memory to your existing RAM can make unrar process unstable/unreliable. So, if you have recently partially upgraded your RAM, go back to your original configuration.

Anyway, here is the list.

Install MTW
Patch to 1.1 I believe
Instal VI (optional, but you will get improved stability)
Patch to 2.01 (of course, only if VI has been installed)
Select your Medieval - Total War folder, copy and paste it without leaving directory/folder. There should appear a "Copy of Medieval - Total War" now. This way, you have a fresh copy and do not need to reinstall everytime you mess up. Additionally, you can have multiple mods (Remember to copy your copy before modifying it though).
Now, rename your original Medieval - Total War, to Redux - Total War. So now you can see a Redux - Total War and a Copy of Medieval - Total War.
Unpack Redux where ever you want. You will get a Redux - Total War folder.
Select the unpacked Redux - Total War folder and copy it. Two options: Ctrl+C, or mouse right click and Copy.
Go to your folder where you can see both Redux - Total War and Copy of Medieval - Total War. Paste the folder you copied in the previous step (unpacked Redux - Total War). Again, two options: Ctrl+V or mouse right click and then paste. It should tell you that there is already a folder called Redux - Total War and that pasting could damage it. Say yes, or overwrite or what ever the message is. If it does not tell you anything, you are doing something wrong.
***EDIT*** Do the above for both Redux 1.0 and Redux VI upgrade (OK, my memory failed me. What's up?, I am just an old man)
You are done. Now let's start the game. Go to your Redux - Total War folder and double click on the .exe file you have there. Do NOT tell me you do not have an .exe file, it is there.
Does Redux start fine? Yes: HURRA!!!!; No: you are SCREWED.
Now, I am assuming it did start but you do not want to have to look for the .exe file all the time. Well, go to your desktop, mouse right click, select new and then shortcut. Browse until you get to the .exe file in your Redux - Total War folder. Name it Redux, or whatever you want. Now you can start the Redux from the desktop, or you should be able to.
Last step for real pickies (aka nerds like myself). I do not like having the same launch icon for normal/vanilla Medieval - Total War and Redux - Total War. No problem. Download this EXCELLENT and FREE image managing program (Irfanview, from http://www.irfanview.com/), install it, and start it. Now go to the first post of the thread, right click of the first image and select copy. Go to Irfanview, Edit and then paste. The picture should be on the canvas now. Left click and hold making a box around the beautiful Medieval - Total War - Redux letters there. Select Edit and then Crop selection. Almost there. Select File - Save as. Now, as "Save in" you browse to reach your Redux - Total War folder (make sure Redux - Total War is part of the path in the "Save in" line, that is, you are saving this image inside the folder). For the "File name" field, I do not care, but something like ReduxIcon. IMPORTANT now, for "Save as type" select ICO - Windows Icon. Make sure this new file is inside Redux - Total War folder.
Finally, go to your desktop and mouse right click on your Redux shortcut, Properties, Change Icon..., Browse... until you find your new ReduxIcon. DONE, now you have a beautiful icon for your nicely working Redux - Total War.

Well, if this does not work for you, I am willing to send you a CD with my installation so you can copy it directly.

Good luck,

Joh

**Axalon** · 10-07-2008, 19:50

Hello guys,

Joh! …Again! Thanks man… I was unaware of your post when I wrote my reply for Martok here, so maybe we will overlap each other a bit, but frankly don’t care about that, because to me it is far more important to just help him out. I’m almost certain that you feel the same way. So, I will post my reply as it was and let’s hope that our combined effort will create some synergy on this one.

Martok: …Hang in there…. We will solve this, rest assured. It is probably just a matter of time now. Here are my pointers and stuff for you:

Originally Posted by Martok

Okay. Obviously, I'm still doing something incorrectly here.

I tried installation method #1 (the red version), but then the game simply refused to start. And yes, I did make sure that both files were the same name (I named them both Redux -- Total War).

After reinstalling the game from scratch again, I then tried installation method #2 (the blue version). The game starts up just fine....but it's just the regular Viking Invasion (2.01 version). There's no indication of any kind that the Redux Mod has been installed.

Based on the limited info you have provided me with I can only draw the following conclusions:

Red-model only possible error-scenario:
------------------------------------------------------
You have not reduxed your game enough. As in you have only installed the files from MTW-Redux 1.0b and NOT the VI-upgrade 1.0 afterwards. This is a must in order for the game files to work properly. Remember, v.2.01 and v.1.1 are structurally very different and thus will not work with each other. Hence the game will not start, because if you put the folder in a wrong place you would have got a start up with plain VI.

You should have gotten this error message then:
------------------------------------------------------
“COLUMN_building_faction_association

Unknown faction specified: column 20, row 8

NOVGOROD”

------------------------------------------------------
If you had one of these you are doing things right, but you just are not doing it enough. So what you need to do here from that point on is to also install the VI-upgrade in very same manner as well… After you installed the files from MTW-redux 1.0b (because the VI-upgrade files must overwrite all the v.1.1 files from MTW-redux 1.0b). Then it will work.

Blue-model only possible error-scenario:
------------------------------------------------------
You have not pasted the redux files in the right place and thus they have not been allowed to overwrite and replace existing original VI-files. They must be allowed to do so in order to function at all. If you paste the files in a wrong place you can only get plain VI. Hence you have pasted it somewhere else (and, if you pasted correctly but only pasted files from ”MTW-Redux 1.0b” you should have gotten the very same error message mentioned above. Once you get that message you are on the right track! Believe it or not! Once you have that message then also paste in the files from the VI-upgrade in the exactly same manner and then it will work.

If black disaster strikes:

------------------------------------------------------

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

As a general rule; if you do an install (red/blue) and you don’t get any varning-message that you are about replace and overwrite any existing files – you are putting the files in the wrong place for sure. Also, as long as you put the redux files in the wrong place there is no functional need to reinstall VI again (you could perhaps clean things up (removing misplaced folders and files) after the install is successful; this is of course is all up to you).

Regardless, post in the good news or the info I simply must have to do anything from this point on. Good luck!

- Cheers

**bozewolf** · 10-08-2008, 00:20

As a long time player looking for something fresh I thought your mod was definitely interesting. It looks like it changes the game a bit more instead of just making it bigger.

I have MW:VI 2.0 so here's what I did.

Installed VI 2.01 patch

Installed Redux 1.0

Installed Redux VI upgrade.

Now I'm going to see if it works.

**bozewolf** · 10-08-2008, 00:49

Installed like a charm. :) Had a quick look at the custom battle screen and very impressed with the fun looking unit rosters. WIll be checking this game out in depth over the few days. Even the Viking campaigns can still be played normally. :)

Great work!

**Axalon** · 10-08-2008, 13:56

Hi there Bozewolf,

A special double welcome to you, both to the Org and the redux corner of MTW! You can hang up your sword and shield over there, and we got plenty of princesses here that serve us mead, meat and wine… Oh and don’t mind the knight who are talking to the horses in the stables, it’s just sir Will the not so silent. A brave and friendly chap, but he isn’t that silent. Oh he just got his virtue upgraded to “Eloquent” so that’s why I guess (sorry Will for being stupid at you! But I just had to get it in there!

By the way, have not seen you here for a while). Most of the knights however are out with their armies conquering Europe and doing some healthy pillaging as well. Anyways, I bid you welcome to castle Redux (did you know that this castle was designed by the very same man that did castle Anthrax, yes it’s true!)…

Now, I won’t do the same mistakes as many others seem to do, assuming “you” to be “mr Greenhorn” just because you went “active” now. The Org is really a great and friendly place, but I sometimes get the feeling that too many people here, too often presume that you know nothing or little about “total war-games” just because you gone “active” now (of course there are cases when this is true as well. However, if “you” do know nothing, just say so, and we’ll treat you accordingly, that’s the way I like it here). I won’t have any such prejudice and nonsense in this place, because I know the feeling and I was in your very boots about two months ago. So I’ll at least try to avoid all that, if possible.

“It looks like it changes the game a bit more instead of just making it bigger.”

Amen to that. Quantity might be a quality but it does not mean I have to prefer or like it, now does it?!? I do hope that we see and read a lot more of you here at “castle Redux” and feel free to post in any questions or other stuff if you can’t find the answers and such in the already existing posts in this thread. Finally, I hope that you have lots of fun with redux, I know I have.

- Cheers
-----------
Joh, that icon-tip you posted in earlier. Really interesting stuff man! Maybe I’ll do some of that later./cheers

**bozewolf** · 10-08-2008, 20:06

Started a campaign with the English yesterday.

Things I like so far (that aren't obvious, since everyone likes new units and buildings Im not gonna get into that):

The economic revisal. I know some of us will miss the ridiculous revenue previous trade could generate, but this is more stable and a tad more realistic.

The unit cost/upkeep principle. Very well concieved, I must say. Apart from some inbalances with certain types (which I'm sure exist), this idea works much better when comparing light troops with professional troops and elite troops. The overall costs represent a good picture of the financial work needed to achieve military might. Although I get the feeling the overall upkeep could've been a wee bit higher (nitty-picking here).

Ships: Faster to build and from trade ship onwards the vessels can travel ground so much more quickly than in the original game, where it would take you a highly unlikely 16 or so years to sail from England to Egypt. This also enables you to set up proper trading routes much more quickly, somewhat off-setting the trade reduction.

The map:
It's like looking at my atlas. Kewl.

The effort taken to give the rebels in each rebel starting province names that correspond with their location. A very nice touch that really adds to the atmosphere of the game.

The increased range missile units have (and seemingly slightly increased hitting power?). Suddenly they're actually dangerous and can "keel you" instead of merely forcing the AI to close contact. Building a missile heavy army now seems like a viable option to me (I never built high-on-missile armies in the original game, apart from when facing the Horde, who are dirt-easy to beat with a good combo). Especially longbowmen have insane range now. Maybe you actually went a bit overboard on the range

(by a little), not sure.

The high-on-rebel starting positions. Makes the game a bit more slower to start. IMO a good development.

The upgrade buildings for subterfuge agents. God, that saves a lot of time.

The differences in building costs and duration. They make the game a bit more difficult but finally make a lof ot sense! It is ludicrous that it used to take people 4 years to build a whorehouse. Now it seems a lot more logical. Big buildings take more time, posh buildings dig into your coffers.

AI finally seems to build troops capable of actually breaking a few skulls up close. I'm actually kinda worried about the huge, well-trained French force lurking south of my borders.

AI also seems to be more willing to engage in diplomacy and interfaction marriages. Don't know how their attitudes will change once your empire gets really big (as they did in the OG game), but for now I like.

Things I'm not too sure about:

The extremes in unit size. I've obviously just started the game so I don't know how the ultimate overall balance is, but I've seen some factions being able to train huge blocks of troops (pure quantity in one unit). Although these units are very expensive indeed, the prospect of having to face blocks of 100-a piece well trained Muslim cavalry isn't a pleasant one. Catholic nations' Royal Knight bodyguards only come in packages of 10? They have a tendency to expire rapidly with those small numbers.

The chronological incorrectness: Ah well, just don't read the year too literally :). It's more like an unfixed period somewhere in the Middle-Ages. I do like historical correctness and I like the principle of the OG game where some units weren't available up to a certain date or technological innovation, but the mod offers enough on other areas that I'm not that bothered by it.

AI factions slightly hesitant to go to war with each other? I've only played 30 odd or so years so far, but I haven't seen a "conflict of opinion" yet. Not that I mind a less agressive AI, though, on the contrary, I hated medieval's original semi-suicidal strategy AI.

Things I don't like:

The helmeted knight portrait that seems to be ubiquitous. The princesses are finally hot (w00t) but all look alike as well. This is a minor detail of course and I'm sure can be changed easily if I really wanted to.

Some poor English in some of the unit descriptions, from simply typo's to crooked English. This doesn't affect the game obviously, and typo's are inescapeable, but still it looks terrible (keep in mind I'm a genuine spelling Nazi

).
Also, some units (Kerns, Gallowglasses for example) have a "thing" that causes the unit name to appear weirdly on the description sheet, in brackets with a lot of question marks and something about not being to find the plural or whatever. The actual descriptive text isn't there. LoL. Purely cosmetic, though and only happens with a few troop types.

Bugs:

None so far! *knock on wood*

All in all, I'm thoroughly enjoying it. Will hook-up my buddy so we can play a succession game with it. Anything good, bad, out of order or disastrous with the mod, I will post it up here in the future! If there's anything you want us/me to check, let us know!

**Axalon** · 10-09-2008, 18:08

Hi again Bozewolf,

It is in many ways an interesting post you have sent in here. There is some praise and some critique I guess along with some other things. At any rate, thanks for bothering to write it down and sending it in to this thread.

First of all, you seem to have overlooked the redux readme-file, in that you would have gotten answers for several of things you are having thoughts on in your post. Also it probably would be advantageous for you to know is that redux was not initially intended to be released to the public at all, it is a thing that has happened after it was essentially done. Hence redux (by default) is above all the game I want (as far as the hardcoded parameters allowed me to) and I have thus not been at all interested in doing a game that appeal to all others when I did the design for it.

If there are some people that like it and play redux, fantastic! But it has never been my intention to do something that appeals to all, because it would only end up as a crappy game. Hopefully people like it, if not, well that’s a shame I guess. The best game-designer for you is; “you”... He he! This is my firm belief. Now when I actually did release redux to the public, my intentions was to have it function as a platform for “you” to create your own personal game upon (it’s probably unique in that regard as far as MTW goes). And you can read all about it in the reduxes “ReadMe”-file (I do recommend you to read it).

Redux is very, very different from the original, because I have designed it out of my own set of ideas, not the paradigm or template set by CA (another thing that is, if not unique, at least very rare in MTW). I am not that interested in making another take on MTW, it has been done and for me personally it simply does not generate any interest. To me, the original is too limited in too many ways and to put it frankly; I did redux because I was not content with the original and some of the features it had. What I loved was the battlefield simulation and the strategical overview and advancing to or defending territories, and ultra above all:

You are responsible for what resources you have, where you position these resources
and what you put on the field, not some half-witted and crappy game designer!

Oh boy have I played many of those games. What I have done in redux is to give you more options and more diverse and unpredictable problems to deal with. And that in a manner that is different from the template created by CA. The redux “projectile-system” alone is proof of that, so is the abolishment of the era-progression among other things. And redux campaigns have a trait and tendency to be ever changing, one campaign is not like the next (even if it is the same faction, it changes). It is unpredictable and I like it that. It is the reduxed way.

I also have some further detailed comments for you in the spoiler. I start from the top of your post and work my way down....

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

”All in all, I'm thoroughly enjoying it. Will hook-up my buddy so we can play a succession game with it. Anything good, bad, out of order or disastrous with the mod, I will post it up here in the future! If there's anything you want us/me to check, let us know!”

This is great news and I am glad that you are having much fun with redux!

Ok, that’s all I got for you this time. There certainly are some questions I would like to have some clarity on myself (the kern/gallowglasses for instance), so it would be great if you could provide me with some answers and Intel here.

- Cheers

**Axalon** · 10-09-2008, 18:12

Hello again,

Let’s try something different shall we? Believe it or not, I got a question of my own for all you guys that runs an updated versions of redux (VI-upgraders/superfixers/redux 1.0b’s) regarding sound. As in “frontend” and in “battle mode”. Which sound-set do you guys prefer?

Original or redux?

In “Front end”? Why? What makes you like the one above the other? Please specify and explain if possible the reasons for your choice…

In “Battle mode”? Why? What makes you like the one from the other? Please specify and explain if possible the reasons for your choice…

I’m curious here (and I do realize that most of you guys probably not are any full-fledged sound experts, its ok. None the less, your opinions are interesting here). It’s no big deal if you might prefer the original before reduxes, I won’t have any problems with that. But what is interesting to me is why. It is this that I am essentially interested in …

So far I have not received a single comment regarding sound in redux, so I am really interested and I would appreciate if you guys could post in some of your opinions are regarding that. Feel free to have additional comments beyond the stipulated areas of “Frontend” and “Battle mode”. If you also want to comment on the campaign SFX, by all means do so….

- Cheers

**bozewolf** · 10-09-2008, 23:11

Hey Ax!

Keep in mind that 80% of my post was under the header "Things I like" :)

Also, I've only been playing one campaign game for slightly over 40 years yet. I think I mentioned that (let me check, yes I did

) as well. So I have no clue on the overall game balance. Those were merely first impressions.

Indeed I did not read the readme. Consider it a character flaw ("Pigheaded: Does not care for manuals or instructions. -2 Acumen). I will. The comment on princesses and others is maybe easier discussed directly (f'in drunk right now, eh), check yer PM's.

**Baron von Manteuffel** · 10-10-2008, 04:11

Hey Axalon, Muslim factions can't get a princess? Is that by design?

**Martok** · 10-10-2008, 08:17

Originally Posted by Baron von Manteuffel

Hey Axalon, Muslim factions can't get a princess? Is that by design?

I believe that's hard-coded. My memory could be in error, but I do seem to recall other modders having made comments to that effect.

**Axalon** · 10-10-2008, 08:45

FOR THE OPEN RECORD:
-----------------------------------
There are no description-display-errors among reduxes units at all. Just thought I’ll clear that up for everybody. It was a mistake made, and it did not concern redux whatsoever. This concludes that issue and that’s the end of it.
-----------------------------------

Hi guys,

Martok: Thanks for stepping in… I appreciate it. And yes, it is hardcoded, as for the effects… (See below).

Baron: Good to see you here again! Now let’s see, this connected to hardcoded errors/limitations of plain MTW V.1.1, (don’t know about VI, but my guess is that there are the same circumstances ruling there as well). Muslim factions can’t generate princesses the way Christians can and do. Because of all that, I have left that possibility out for the muslims, the only way they are ever gone get some delicious maidens is to do it the old-school traditional way; buy them…. There are four slots available for strat-agents as you probably well know. You’ll have to edit them in there since they will have to cost you some (and that don’t go to well with the other girls). There are also some name-related problems to consider if you care what these little dark beauties are called (especially in V.1.1 that is basically hopless). Moorish princess “Cecilia” don’t strike me as quite right, so you’ll have to create an appropriate name-pool as well, just so you are aware of that. Are you sure you want to do all that? At any rate, creating that name-pool will be at the expense of another existing one in VI, just so you know. Along with the standard stuff of assigning buildings, description, rev- and infopics and all that (not forgetting the buf/bifs-files for the strat map).

So, the short answer for you is, yes it is by (forced by hardcode) design….

Bozwolf: Our fluff is sorted, and I’ll expect you to be all sobered up when you march your army out of here to do an honest commanders days work and have some proper pillaging and fighting done. Otherwise I will slam an “often drunk” vice at you so fast that you won’t have the time to say: “earl gray?”. Also, if you don’t have at least has advanced to the “merciless”-vice when you return here I will be very, very disappointed… Soup and bread for a week at least!

- Cheers

**bozewolf** · 10-10-2008, 16:17

Well, I'm afraid it'll be water and bread for me since I'm a wreck today after a night's hard binging, teehee.

I've checked the readme file now. Good to see the portraits (the helmeted general for example) can be easily customized/swapped with others (that's what I meant when I referred to this in my original post).

As far as the historical accuracy thing goes, I fully agree with you! Personally I do like historical accuracy but with the way Redux works there are so many more advantages to the system that I'm not al all bothered by the date in the lower right corner. So yeah, good job on that.

Overall what I enjoy most is the way Redux tends to make the actual game a bit more realistic. Ships moving at a faster rate, better economic balance, realistic costs for running professional armies, more logical buildtime/buildcost ratio for structures, missile troops being far more dangerous at range. Etc. Basically your mod changed and tweaked a lot of game mechanics (instead of just making the game "more of the same") that I always thought needed tweaking in the original.

It's more challenging, too. You really have to work quite hard to protect your kingdom. I like smaller kingdoms much better these days. Large empires tend to get a bit boring and annoying.

**noone23** · 10-10-2008, 19:44

Hi, Axalon. I wanted to let you know that I downloaded your mod and after a few tries finally figured out the installation with help from instructions I saw in this thread. This is by my count my 9th working mod for MTWVI 2.01 so I have been through this before. I told myself I wasn't going to play the campaign yet because I still have - months after starting them - savegames for the Early Period scenario for MTWVI and for Hellenic Total War(Persian Wars scenario) - that I want to get back to but never do, as well as a couple of other MTWVI mod campaigns that are on my ever-lengthening games to play list.

Nevertheless, after editing the money values in the startpos file and using Gnome Editor as I like to do with anything involving MTWVI on the relevant unit_prod and build_prod files. I started play as my medieval favorites the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation. I spent the first 25 years just agreeing to a whole bunch of alliances proposed by others(I figured doing so would help buy me the time I needed to get my war machine cranked up and ready to go)and building up my infrastructure to give me the super units I created in Gnome(my favorite of all medieval units is the Teutonic Knights). I also built up my army to prepare for the expansion I knew had to come.

At about the time that 25 game years had passed I decided I was ready to take the fight beyond my own borders and I started going after all the rebel areas that I could reach. Once I accomplished what I could with that I started warfare in earnest by attacking Hungary which didn't last long in the face of assaults by my superior units. With Hungary out of the picture I turned my attention westward since France was one of the very few other nations that didn't bother to offer me an alliance. I widened my offensive in that case to include Burgundy since that faction had territory that I wanted(it had taken over rebel Switzerland). I had to slow the pace of my attacks due to MTW's painfully slow pace of production at one unit and one building maximum per turn. For Rome Total War ands its mods I can produce units in bunches and have a complete army built in 2 or 3 turns(and that is 20 units as opposed to the more limiting 16 units found in MTW and its mods). Anyway, at this point in the game I have gotten up to the Advance Turn phase in the year 750. Burgundy is out and France is reduced to only the rebel province of Toulouse. I still have to siege assault the castles in Brittany and Aquitaine to complete my takeovers of those areas. It seems a bit ridiculous to me to see how easy it is for my troops to smash open the castle gates and take out the garrison. The AI does a bad job of protecting its castles IMO. Well, while war in the west was going on I didn't like the apparent threat posed by Poland so I launched a preemptive offensive there and took Poland(province)and Volhynia on the first go-around. Shortly after that I completed the elimination of Poland as a viable power and turned north to invade Denmark. My first attack ended in the only battlefield defeat I have suffered so far after(and before)so many smashing victories. That army suffered the loss of its commander and things went south, so to speak, not long after that. It turned out that the surviving remnants really weren't worth saving. That will teach me to rely on an army that has so many mercenary units in it. Not too much later I raised another army with mostly Teutonic Knights in the ranks and attacked again against the Danish army that didn't win a cheap victory the first time around; that triumph cost the Danes more than 400 men. This time I had my revenge as the Knights smashed their way to another lopsided win; shortly afterward I successfully attacked Roskilde Castle and so sent the remnants of the Danish Viking kingdom reeling back into Sweden which I plan to attack soon. At present I am currently at war with Italy(I assume this means Venice)and have taken Austria and Tyrolia both of which I consider to be provinces belonging to the empire(as they indeed now do). The Pope has broken off his alliance with me in support of his neighbor but that has only earned him my ill will and likely revenge in the future. This is even more the case as he has been implicated in at least one successful assassination plot of several that have claimed the lives of 4 of my generals. It doesn't matter, though, as I learned from playing Shogun Total War that if your troops are good enough it really doesn't matter who leads them. I am very confident going into battle whenever I have a good proportion of Teutonic Knight or other similar heavy cavalry under my command. These units have beaten odds as much as 6 to 1 against me and won gloriously to the point where I expect it no matter what the opposition. They also have been the leaders in a couple of river crossing battles where they smashed their way across the bridge enabling the other units in my army to follow across unhindered.

This is pretty much where things stand at the moment. The Moors and Saracens have also been implicated in several assassination plots against my generals so I have scores to settle with them as well even though they are for the moment too far away to think about too seriously. The day of reckoning will come for both of them, I believe. I still have an alliance with the Saracens but I don't care. They must pay for their crimes and so they shall as long as I have something to say about it. Also, I don't like the English possession of Normandy and I see war coming out of that situation. It's just a matter of when I get around to it. The AI doesn't seem too bright(granted, I am playing on the Easy setting)when it comes to recognizing a mutual threat to many nations such as the one I pose and forming a grand coalition to deal with it. Whenever I embark on another war I get reassurances of friendship, etc., from virtually all of my numerous allies unless someone among them(such as the Pope with my Italian war)decides my activities are coming a little too close to home and wants me to cease and desist and tells me so in whatever words they choose to use. I plan on ignoring the Pope just as I would any other power that I deem worthy of being invaded, overrun and conquered. I can hardly wait to capture Rome and unleash my troops to wreak havoc upon the city before I decide that I've had enough and start to rebuild the place to suit my own purposes. You wanted more feedback, Axalon, and you sure got it here. I hope you(and others)enjoy this longwinded post. I know from reading this thread that you for one don't mind a little excess length and so I gave you more grist for your Redux mill. Thanks for doing this mod. You modders, as I keep saying, are in a league well above mine.

One other thing that I previously forgot - I saw your advice about saving the game so I save the game every 5 years. It's not that much bother, especially once you get into the habit of doing it on a regular basis.

**Axalon** · 10-11-2008, 04:30

Hi Noon23,

First of all, thanks for your post. It’s a big one, but that’s ok. Just try to avoid any compact formatting because that will make it harder to read, and we don’t want any of that. Right? Also I hope that you are having lots of fun with redux in your on special-edition way (have altered stuff and all that).

Now, we have slight problem with your post and because of that I’ll stay away from commenting on the contents and claims within it. Instead I will concentrate on the issues and problems as such that are creating these problems that we are having with this particular post.

Ok, you have decided to alter redux and that is fine and ok. Now, in order for the rest of us to be able to understand the resulting circumstances of all these changes we must have these very changes properly presented to us. Cause without any such account we simply have no honest chance to fully understand or validate the things stated and claimed in your post. We simply can not get any perspective on it. Now, my guess is that this is not what you intended, but that’s the way things are. Until all that changes the rest of us can at best only speculate about the contents and statements in your post, because we don’t have the information we need to fully understand its content and statements. You have, but we don’t. In order to fully understand what you are trying to say, we must have access to that information and as things are for now we don’t. As sad and simple as that.

Now, I am sorry for not being able to give you more positive response than this but that is solely dependent on the current design of your post. I’ll guess that this was bound to happen sooner or later. Although I did not expect it. And this time, it just happened to be you, so this is not in any way connected to you personally what so ever.

You obviously did not realize all this and I certainly did not make these things clear to everybody until now (because I did not see it coming, I was too busy answering posts! Hehe!). Now, there is no reason for why we can’t remedy this little problem. What needs to be done here is you giving the rest of us a solid presentation on what changes you exactly made and then we are up to speed and can for the first time read your text the way you intended it to be read.

The idea of posting in a campaign-story is great and personally I hope that we’ll have more of these since they serve as excellent providers of perspectives and information for all other players to consider and think upon. But in order to have that effect the circumstances for that campaign must be either presented properly (which remains to be done in your post) or have already established and familiar circumstances (default redux). Besides campaign-stories also can serve as foundations for further and interesting debates on various aspects regarding them. Now there is a prospect I can live with!

So, lets fix things up and then we have another go at it.

(Here are some pointers on what I mean:

Exactly what changes are made? How does they work as a solo entity, and with all the other content in the game? To what end are they made? How did you reason when did these changes? How did you monitor the resulting effects of these changes? Are you pleased with your changes? Etc. Etc.

As for battles: How many men do you got? How many does the foe have? And what kind of troops are we talking about? At what troop-size-setting are running your campaign? Is it default or anything else? Losses? What were they? Both sides mind you, for the sake of clarity. Otherwise all battle accounts will just become an unknown blur.)

- Cheers

**Axalon** · 10-12-2008, 03:59

Here are some replies to Bozwolfs post:166,

I've checked the readme file now. Good to see the portraits (the helmeted general for example) can be easily customized/swapped with others (that's what I meant when I referred to this in my original post).

Now you can get DC/Marvel-styled heroes where you want them! Or anything else you deem suitable. That was part of the design all the way. Personally I never really liked the portraits of CA, too much…. Well, I just don’t like ‘em, perhaps its best to leave it at that. I wanted DC/Marvel inspired style instead! Storm as princess, oh there is sweet a thought….

As far as the historical accuracy thing goes, I fully agree with you! Personally I do like historical accuracy but with the way Redux works there are so many more advantages to the system that I'm not al all bothered by the date in the lower right corner. So yeah, good job on that.

Well that is a happy surprise, great great! This calls for a bow!

I only wish there where more people that came to that conclusion. History stuff and games don’t work that well together. Never did. As a setting and inspiration, ok, fine and excellent but beyond that, naah!

Overall what I enjoy most is the way Redux tends to make the actual game a bit more realistic. Ships moving at a faster rate, better economic balance, realistic costs for running professional armies, more logical buildtime/buildcost ratio for structures, missile troops being far more dangerous at range. Etc. Basically your mod changed and tweaked a lot of game mechanics (instead of just making the game "more of the same") that I always thought needed tweaking in the original.

Seriously, this is news with a babefactor… Thanks man!

It's more challenging, too. You really have to work quite hard to protect your kingdom. I like smaller kingdoms much better these days. Large empires tend to get a bit boring and annoying.

Yeah, I’m all for that myself. Besides, if you got a big empire there are fewer enemies to fight and kill which is not as much fun. And on a more serious note, the bigger empire you got the more vices “your people” (generals) get. Don’t know the exact numbers for it thou but as long as you stay under 10 provinces you are safe from that penalty. Because of all that I usually prefer 7-9-ish highly developed provinces myself but I’ll intervene and police things all over my trade routes. If the Pope has been acting stupidly I’ll go over there with a decent commander and few formations of Heavy Infantry (one of my personal favourites) and sort things out with his holiness, making him retire to think things over for a while so to speak!

But usually I tend to safeguard Spain for Christianity and have an ever standing training school at Sahara to spice things up. Playing as England that dubious honour usually falls upon Scottland. At any rate I do prefer the smaller kingdom-modell myself and the “worldpolicing” it’s just a hobby of mine. It’s a dirty job but someone got to do it. Essentially I am an equalizer most of the time, slowly building up my valour:5 veteran-formations. Yes that’s right valour 5, the only way to go. They won’t break and they don’t care whatever opposition or odds they are facing. They just fight on and doing it with style. That means that I can focus on tactics. Hehe!

- Cheers
---------
What is it with all you people? Is there no one who likes sound here?!?

**noone23** · 10-12-2008, 04:24

"Exactly what changes are made? How does they work as a solo entity, and with all the other content in the game? To what end are they made? How did you reason when did these changes? How did you monitor the resulting effects of these changes? Are you pleased with your changes?

As for battles: How many men do you got? How many does the foe have? And what kind of troops are we talking about? At what troop-size-setting are running your campaign? Is it default or anything else? Losses? What were they? Both sides mind you, for the sake of clarity."

Axelon, I 'm sorry that you didn't get a lot of my last post. Now I will try to answer some of your questions.

My first change was in the startpos file where I gave the HRE as much money as MTW would allow and left every other faction with ZERO to start(nasty, I know). From there I went into Gnome Editor and opened up the unit_build file. Once inside I sought out and found 7 units unique to my medieval favorites the HRE(thank you Axelon - I couldn't find any such units to edit in the MTWVI Early campaign scenario making that scen a tougher proposition - ). I boosted as many of the properties of those units as far as I felt safe in doing(wanting to make changes without wrecking the game). I would have liked to have done more but it just seemed too risky, but if there is more I can safely do along these lines I would like to know about it even though it is too late for my current game. Well, I made these 7 units faster, gave them better morale, gave them a slight shield bonus increase, gave them better armor protection, made them disciplined and formed, removed any fear they had against any possible enemy units, gave them attack and defense bonuses against cavalry, eliminated unit costs for both creation and maintenance, etc., etc., etc. Really, I don't recall everything I did.

At any rate, once I finished with the units file I switched to the buildings file and cut the waiting time to the minimum of 1 turn for any building that looked like it might have some military connection no matter how slight(for those structures that had more than a one turn construction period).

The changes took effect in the game with no problem. The only thing was that I had to wait until I had the right buildings constructed to enable me to start building my special elite units. As it is now after 50 years I still only have three areas - Franconia, Bohemia and Brandenburg - where I can build Teutonic Knights cavalry. I hope that will start to change soon. That is the unit that I plan to have leading the charge for the HRE to run the map to total victory. That is the whole point - I want my personal favorite from the Middle Ages the HRE to conquer everything before it and I don't care if I have to provide a good measure of "divine intervention".

To move on, I am fairly pleased with the changes I made but I would have liked to have done more. If it would be possible I would like to make unkillable units(immortals in the literal sense)but maybe that is too much to hope for.

As for battles, I tend not to have armies that are too big because their unit slots are largely filled by the smaller but very lethal heavy cavalry units. Some of the enemy armies have been bigger than expected(a couple thousand or more)but that has as much to do with little or no scouting as anything else. At this point I think the quality of armies on all sides is a mixed bag. Upgrading to my designated killer units has been a painfully slow process while I wait for the right buildings to become available in captured areas like Saxony, Pomerania and Prussia, among others, but I have been seeing that pattern changing in recent turns so maybe it won't be much longer before those areas will start producing the desired units.

My troop size setting has been Default. I have been tempted to increase it but I wonder if I should take the risk and if so the next question becomes how much larger can I make that setting before the game rebels and I have problems just starting Redux(which, BTW, reminds me of reflux, but never mind)?

Battle losses have for the most part been running heavily in my favor even when I face enemy forces that have substantial numerical advantages. Many enemy losses have come when units tried to run away but were caught and cut down. Many more enemy losses have come when my elite killers started the battle by plowing headlong into the enemy masses seeking the opposing commander and often killing him early thus sending the other army on its downward spiral leading to defeat and disaster. My losses by comparison have been more affordable with a couple battles against smaller enemy forces resulting in no losses at all for my troops. In short, things are looking good but they could always be better. Whenever I resume play I'm going to work on that situation.

I'll give this a rest for now. You'll probably take me to task again but I'll survive. And so it goes...

**bozewolf** · 10-12-2008, 04:37

Hey Ax,

so far I've found that the unit cost/upkeep changes make making a really big army takes more time and also makes you more careful with them. And, i dont know if you intended this, so far the AI seems to be more careful as well, no longer go on suicide wars.

little campaign update, thought you may like that: I've unified the British isles now. Letting Scotland rebel to use as a training school (Scotland makes a whopping 90 florins. I'm quite sure I can afford to lose that, hah). With my ships' connections Ive managed to seize Crete. Very pleased with that since it seems to be quite wealthy and a very very strong base for eventual crusades or expeditions against Eastern factions. Now in my 40th year. My royal line seems to be quite weak so Im going to "level" the crown prince in Scotland now with a decent force.

**bozewolf** · 10-12-2008, 06:19

And just to clarify: I think it taking more time to build seriously big armies is a good thing! It also makes you more careful since you can't replenish a force that big so easily unless you have serious coffers to dig in to.

I've seized Malta as well, since it was unprotected. Not very rich but quite eager to rebel. A good second training ground maybe, heh. I've also managed to occupy Sardinia, which should guarantee quite a lot more income.

I'm excited about these new acquisitions as they may allow me to establish a Mediterranean beginning.

**Axalon** · 10-14-2008, 17:41

Hello again guys, Bozewolf this is essentially for you…

First of all, yes I am well aware of the effects reduxed unit-costs and it’s just the way I like it (you seem to do so as well, great!). It is one of the many big design-decisions I made for redux beyond the template established and created by CA. This is one of the many ways redux stands apart from other versions. Moving on, the fact that reduxed AI seems to prefer more solid preparations for war is nothing that I have any objections to at all. It makes the game better and more durable. I can’t remember what I did to create that type of AI-behaviour – been working on redux too long (it might even be a pleasant side-effect to some other aspect that I tinkered with in redux).

Now, I think it is really great that you keep the rest of us posted on your campaign, at the very least it shows possible and potential paths and strategies with the reduxed English faction. Allowing Scotland to “rebel out” is the way I do things, maybe you like it that way as well, we’ll see I guess. At any rate, it usually is a good thing too keep troops training and warmed up during peacetime that way, or at least I think so. If nothing else it will get you some battles even if you have and organized and fully functional kingdom that no current wars to fight. And when war comes you’ll have battle-experienced formations that will with out doubt be better than most of the foe’s formations since the AI don’t do that type of training. Thus the AI is more likely to have inexperienced greenhorn troops. That way you can battle enemy formations that on paper are better and superior to yours still can loose against your veteran troops. Don’t forget that moral is a key factor and 1 valour point means +2 in moral. Thus valour: 4 will in effect mean +8 to moral and that factor will have a very distinguishable effect in battle, regardless the commander. Also don’t be afraid of ticking of the “tidy up units”-option and do some restructuring manually on your troops. You’ll probably end up with better troops in the end by doing that. A tad much on the detailed side of unit-management here so lets move on.

It seems that you are quite an island-jumper. Well there are of course advantages and some disadvantages as well with that. As for the advantages, you’ll not need to worry much in regards to troublesome borders and neighbours as long as you keep you coasts clean from all enemy naval activity in the area. That’s the good part apart from any obvious “geo-political” rewards you might get by controlling that area of course. As for the disadvantages with islands, the cost involved with securing islands and the maintenance of that is usually far more costly than any regular land area. You also a fully dependant on functional and undisrupted sea lanes, that requires fleets, fleets cost florins and above all maintenance of fleets are expensive (or at least I think so). In a strict economical sense it is not always winning prospect to take and hold an island considering the actual cost in doing so (MALTA or RHODES for instance). Also, if the garrison becomes cut of they can’t be expecting any reinforcements thus every deployment on such potentially isolated areas will become more important than elsewhere. As in you will be extra responsible for what you put there once all hell breaks loose in that area, either by rebellion or invasion. That’s the bad side of things with islands (the exception to some of these circumstances being SARDINIA and CORSICA).

As for the Easter factions, expect different styles of troops and tactics. They tend be very different from Catholic tactical profiles, heavy dependency on archers is common for the Byzantines along with their different and unique style of troops. With the Saracens you should expect cavalry and probably some camel formations along with various types of Islamic infantry as well. The battles will most likely be a bit different to those you are used to in Western Europe.

In regards to royal heirs, I always give them a hard drilling in harsher sides of life just to ensure that they always have some decent dread and command-values. As for acumen, well that is really important, so if need be I’ll send an assassin to get the trait of “very nervous” and thus a +1 acumen on the poor sob. He he! Be careful with that thou! At any rate, combat experience pays off; heirs are no exception to that rule in any way.

Well that’s all I got for you this time and perhaps you already know some of the tips and pointers I presented for you, but it is hard for me to know where exactly to set the bar here. At any rate, do keep the rest of us posted on your progress with the English (just keep track of the turns. BTW, what difficulty level was it again? Just so we have the full overview here)!

Redux player X (yes you!):

Is there anybody else of you guys that have remarks, suggestions, views and/or opinions on Bozewolf’s campaign and its progress or his choices made so far??? Any of you regular redux posters perhaps? Any of you guys interested in posting in a few lines in that regard? Feel free to post it in so we can get a more debate-ish thing going in this thread, I for one would welcome it. And we all would probably get some further and deeper insight in the world of redux that way (including yours truly). Remember, this thread does not in any way have to include me in every aspect of it to get things going…

- Cheers
-----------
Noone23 I’ll get back to you shortly in a separate post with comments and pointers for you…

**William the Silent** · 10-14-2008, 23:03

Well, at the moment I'm not so happy the way things are going.
I'm playing the english at hard.

I established myself first by building a good economy (for troop build-up and all other progress) and and securing Normandy against any invasion.
Put a spy in every province for stability. Build up superior see-power around the Isles. Then take ALL of the Isles. If I would leave Scotland independent, it could be taken by some overwhelming force from somewhere. And I would be faced with some big problem in my backyard Bozewolf .
Scotland can be stabalised with 240 troops, a church and a spy and taking a peek at their stability every turn on "High Tax", with the sea secured.

I make alliances with everybody. Look for wives for my sons.

Now about my struggles:
I was in peace with everybody. I believe the World was in total peace with everybody at that time. Only rebels had to fear war. The perfect world.
So I took Flanders/Friesland (my place of birth) and I didn't offend anybody.

But all of a sudden France invades my terratory. I kick them out and show them who is the boss.
But what happens: the whole world condems me for being the agressor and I loose all my friends except the Lombards.
That's all fine with me, because noone can challenge me at that point, in battle, because I have nuclear weapons.

But what I come to find out is that no one, I mean no one, wants to marry my sons, not even the Lombards. So after my king dies I'm left with a sonless new king. I survive that, but not the second time. Not even a moslim wants to give their daughters to my sons.
So in the year 828 my king dies with a son of 10 years old at an age of 53. I try to revive him by reloading my saves and give him some more years, but no, the judgement of Redux is final. 53 Years. And for the first time in my life I see the looser screen

.

128 Turns of dedication, glory, noble deeds, patience, love, sweat and tears for nothing. Shall I start all over? I'm broken

.
Give me a reason to start over Axalon?

**Baron von Manteuffel** · 10-15-2008, 04:12

@William the Silent - A reason to start over? For King & Country!

No seriously, I've had that happen too, and I hate it. It sucks, but you know you're going to start again. If you can only get your King to survive 6 more years, I think it's 16 years old for the heir to mature.

About heirs, I've got a question. Hypothetically, your King has 2 sons and he suddenly dies. The eldest becomes the new King and his brother is still a Prince. Now the New King has a son, and he turns 16 and now he's an heir. If the New King dies, the 16 year old son is crowned King?

Is it always the son of the King that becomes the new King? What about the 30 or 40 something year old brother, he is just a general now and no longer a Prince? Was it always that way historically?

The Royal bloodline is confusing and there must have been a lot of power struggles. The War of the Roses comes to mind but I'm not sure. I need to read more

.

The point of all this babble is I've had Kings die and when the new King is crowned, all the other Princes become generals. I've never fully understood that, but I believe it's someting along these lines.

**Axalon** · 10-15-2008, 08:44

Hi guys,

Will: welcome back! How I missed your whining!

Its feels good to have you back here from your latest adventures beyond the safe borders of MTW-land. You Know, you are this threads own workhorse doing the dirty job of reliving my workload and keeping the thread going and for that I do thank you! I wish only more people followed your example.

About your troubles, no worries man we’ll get it sorted. Now the way I see it you got three possible options:

Option 1. You go back to your current saves and try to make your king live long enough to allow his son to mature (age 16). Do a token battle, move him around and stuff like that. That usually makes them live a little bit longer. It should work for you.

Option 2. You set up your redux to go to “debug mode” using the “-ian” command line in the shortcut to redux. Its more thoroughly described in the frogladys guide and its available here at the Org. It’s an excellent guide, but it wont do much good for redux I’m afraid (all the stuff is for standard MTW).

Anyway, once you got your “debug mode” set up, load up a game some 20 years prior to AD 828 (it was that turn was it not?). So here we are back in AD 808, now the first thing you should do is an “.unfreeze.”-cheat (that get you a new royal-male-heir next turn) type it in like that, don’t forget the dots. After that you should whenever you need to marry your princes select an ally that you want close relations to, lets say France for instance. Once they get princess you simply switch over to france by pressing/typing “7” that should switch over the controle for you to france. Now as france, send her over to England marry your English prince, give her that mission. Once that is done, switch back to England and continue playing.

Since AI is incapable of sending the girls to marry already established allies you wont get any such suggestions at all once you allied with a faction. Because of that I would advice you to be more selective to whom you sign alliance treaties with. Don’t have too many allies, that will only **** things for you so don’t bother with that. And the Pope? Well, you do what you want, but personally I don’t care much about him… Just try to avoid to be excommunicated, you will eventually be that of course and when it happens, either kill him or kill your king it’s the easiest way to deal with it. Alternatively, you could always destroy the papists if you like that instead.

Now back to the weddings, it is an annoying thing that is hardcoded and such I cant do anything about it. Because of that I usually play at “debug-mode” myself and send the princesses to me from 1-2 trusted allies. It saves me a lot of time and work, and I can concentrate on far more interesting things instead. I am well aware that this is not by the rule-book but it makes the game a lot smoother. Besides, why the hell should I bother with a game-feature that has not been properly worked thru in the first place? No, I don’t bother with that personally, but that’s just me.

Option 3. You start all over again… You will of course do that eventually (in that regard the good baron is quite right), but this time? Well that’s just plain unnecessary. So don’t bother with that for now. Wait with that for a new campaign instead….

Now I got some questions of my own for you:

“...because I have nuclear weapons.”

What?!? Care to elaborate?

“Not even a moslim wants to give their daughters to my sons.”

Have you tinkered with the game? Islamic factions don’t have daughters/princesses by default. Care to elaborate?

-------------
von Manteuffel: You are also a dependable soul here at the redux corner. Let’s see if I can’t get you some answers for you here…

“About heirs, I've got a question. Hypothetically, your King has 2 sons and he suddenly dies. The eldest becomes the new King and his brother is still a Prince. Now the New King has a son, and he turns 16 and now he's an heir. If the New King dies, the 16 year old son is crowned King?”

Yes

”Is it always the son of the King that becomes the new King? What about the 30 or 40 something year old brother, he is just a general now and no longer a Prince? Was it always that way historically?”

Historically, no… As for the games, in plain MTW v.1.1 he becomes a general of royal blood (one who technically can instigate a civil war and that way become king, he will then have his age reset to 20-30 something). In standard VI he becomes just a plain general (I never liked that in the VI-version). All is hardcoded… (Expect the history part of course).

“The Royal bloodline is confusing and there must have been a lot of power struggles. The War of the Roses comes to mind but I'm not sure. I need to read more”

Why not?

“The point of all this babble is I've had Kings die and when the new King is crowned, all the other Princes become generals. I've never fully understood that, but I believe it's someting along these lines.”

Well my dear baron, there is a lot of things I don’t understand about the designs of MTW… Again, it might just be me.

- Cheers

**Axalon** · 10-15-2008, 08:49

Hello again, this is in regards to post: 167, 168 and 170. Basically, this is for you Noone23…

Now, Iv’e got about 5 tons of criticisms that I could poor all over your two posts, but I won’t do that. You have obviously and freely made your mind up in regards to what you like and what you essentially want and that’s your privilege. I simply have or at least should have no right to question that. And what you do and play at home is one thing. Discussing a public game based upon circumstances that is not essentially valid for that game that’s quite another.

Because I and everybody else do have the right to measure the substance and validity of your publicly stated claims now that we finally got some chances of understanding the circumstances in which these claims are founded upon. Furthermore, I certainly have a right to defend my own work in the public debate. This is also true when claims are presented in a way that it could be perceived to “be associated to” or “be representative” of my work, redux. Even if it just “appears” that way, I still have the full rights to defend my work and question all those claims and statements if I want to. After all, they are addressed to the public redux, my version, not your version, and thus I have every right to defend the “image” or “appearance” of my work in the public eye, even if the presented claims are not founded upon it.

Now, your initial post made some pretty bold statements considering the actual circumstances that these statements were founded upon. It is of course you privilege to continue to do so but my friendly advice to you is to keep a tight titanium lid on all that from now on, because you will end up a much happier man that way. If you want to discuss redux and the various aspects there of, be my guest, by all means you are welcome to do so. BUT you must base your assumptions and opinions upon known and established circumstances, not the ones you tinkered your way to at home. Otherwise there is a mammoth-sized risk that your statements will be subject for merciless scrutiny, and frankly, the initial claims in your first post will not survive that, that’s a promise from me to you. I alone can probably kill most of them 10 times over, imagine what others would and could do. My guess is that this is not a prospect you want, so it’s better to avoid all that by simply stay “redux default”. That way most of the heat will be directed to me and you can probably live with that.

Anyway, I think you are right, it is best to give this whole holy roman super-superior Reich thingie a rest (at least here). Your version has too much discrepancy and is too different with default redux, and as such it is little meaning in discuss that here on a thread that is earmarked for the public version of redux. I see no point in it actually. So, from now on we stay strictly redux default, that way all of us can immediately recognise the circumstances ruling in of the game, and above all we all can talk about the same game.

Ill leave you some pointers to accelerate your debatable win with the HRE thou:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

That should speed things up for you. Matter closed. Next time… Redux default ok?

- Cheers

**bozewolf** · 10-16-2008, 08:11

Well Ive been playing a bit more and longbowmen are so immensely powerful, lol. Load up on these bad boys and you can literally mow down entire armies from an incredible range. Normal archers seem paltry in comparison. For now I don't mind having these ballistic missiles around while I'm still exploring the mod, but lol, maybe I should learn how to change some values later on.

I'm in turn 57 now (playing it slow) and finally the Italians got into a good scrap with the Pope and the Lombards. The Saracens and their Moorish brethren also seem to have a slight difference of opinion.

I'm consolidating my kingdom now, using Scotland mercilessly as killing grounds for new recruits. Raw 4-valour longbowmen are not to be sniffed at, not even by the frighteningly large French presence in, well, France. Though the French never tried to ally themselves with me and turned down the few attempts that I made as well. Somehow I feel secured to know at least I will avoid "teh backstab". Forces are building up and the situation feels rather tense. Although there are no provocations from any side yet.
Malta is pretty worthless economy-wise so I'm (ab)using that as a second rebel-party to get some experienced troops and a general out of it.

My coffers aren't deep but I'm making a steady income surplus of about 2500 florins, so I'm spending most of my cash once I get my hands on it, investing readily in fresh upgrades and better troops.

The royal line isn't the strongest as of now. I hope that will change since the following King will likely be quite young and that gives me plenty of time to invest in him.

Overall having lots of fun :) And enjoying the new units and buildings.

Regarding difficulty, I can't remember actually, hehe. Either Hard or Normal. I think Normal since thats what I use to explore and do whatever the F I want, I'm certainly not 100% sure however.

**Axalon** · 10-16-2008, 17:17

Hi Boz,

First of All, thanks for keeping all of us posted on your campaign (also congrats to your promotion to regular member, it makes things easier doesn’t it?).

As for the longbows, we have been up that road before you and I. Now, you do what you like, but as I said before, it is little point including longbows in the game if they are not allowed to be longbows. I have set the range to 300 m based on the info available info in wikipedia (which states the values for relevant English longbow-models to 250-328m as to range, so don’t take my word for it). Thus any value set under 250m will effectively make it something else and ridiculous. I am well aware of the power of the longbow in the game. I have fought for this before (not with you) and it seems that I am doing it again.

Now, it is no mere chance that England is set to “Easy” campaign difficulty. Apart from the obvious strategic advantages available to England, there is also the formidable and unique power of the longbow-formations. That combined makes it a lot easier to play England than any other faction, in spite of the many efforts of mine to try to contain and moderate that power by requirements, heavy costs and training times. But it also opens up for a possible specific and unique tactical style for England in the game that to some extent reflects the many claims of traditional history (Agincourt etc.).

The reduxed longbow formations are far more expensive than regular archers and should be because of their power. I am basically stuck between the prospects of either excluding them on one hand and or ridicule them on the other. I have chosen to include them and not to ridicule them. Their “fantastic” range does create problems in regards to game balancing, no doubt about that, but it also do reflect the longbow for what it is, a fantastic weapon beyond the ordinary bow (there actually are historical accounts that claims that men have even fired above 500m, but that was not longbows it was with the Mongol composite-bow. See Wiki.). What you are describing are exactly what the longbow is all about, mowing down the enemy at a great distance. Redux reflects that, where as other versions have constantly backed away from that rather uncomfortable design-decision of letting the longbows actually be longbows. It is not fair, it was not fair back in the day either. The longbows fame is founded upon that very reality. Thus here is a blatant example of me being inspired by a “historical” circumstance and letting that be reflected in the game.

The over all ranges of bows in redux are as follows: 100m/150m/170m/300m (the longbows). Looking upon those numbers it is blatantly clear that the longbow will rock the balance, but that’s just the very thing, it did rock the balance and it became famous for that very reason. So, yes they are powerful, yes they are not fair, yes this is the way it is and its not by chance this is still around in redux.

Also, for the sake of preventing any misunderstandings, I have not lost my temper here in any way in regards to your concerns about the longbow. You are simply conveying an opinion and now I am merely pointing out my reasons as for why the longbow has the range it has. Nothing else. Thus making sure that you (and everybody else) understand the reasons for the longbow and can that way easier see why I have allowed such circumstances to remain in redux. It is not an overlook, it is conscious and I hope that this is clear once and for all now.

As I said earlier, you do whatever you feel is necessary to sort this out, if that means a lowering of the longbows range, so be it. But for me, the range-value stays, for the very reasons stated above. As for my personal use of longbows, it is limited, it happens now and then, but I tend to rely upon other troops instead because of the outstanding traits of the longbow (it kind of ruins much of the fun if you got more then two formations, although I have used a few formations to teach the AI a few lessons on occasion). I have never relied upon or battled with heavy concentrations of longbows in my armies, it would not be much fun in that I think.

England is great faction to explore the many secrets of redux with, but it is certainly not the most challenging faction available. England is easy, and it should be categorized as easy, in large part because of the possibilities that this very special weapon offers. This is how I see it at least. And when I do play England I am very careful with the usage of longbows. If you use and depend much on the longbow, well, then it could be argued that you’re very English in your tactics, so to speak….

Now as for your campaign, well things change don’t they? The different wars and all that.

“…the frighteningly large French presence in, well, France. Though the French never tried to ally themselves with me and turned down the few attempts that I made as well. Somehow I feel secured to know at least I will avoid "teh backstab". Forces are building up and the situation feels rather tense. Although there are no provocations from any side yet.”

This is very redux, you get a war on your hands soon enough I'd guess. If it is with the French then their attack will probably come at either NORMANDY, FLANDERS or AQUITAINE, that’s my guess. But you never know until it happens, only some spies perhaps and the good 'ol AI might knows that...

“Malta is pretty worthless economy-wise so I'm (ab)using that as a second rebel-party to get some experienced troops and a general out of it.”

Yeah as I said earlier, conquering a new province will not necessarily mean additional profit for the coffers (a trait I rather I like actually). MALTA is a good example of that.

“My coffers aren't deep but I'm making a steady income surplus of about 2500 florins, so I'm spending most of my cash once I get my hands on it, investing readily in fresh upgrades and better troops.”

Again very redux, I done this plenty of times myself. What the hell else can you do with a tight purse?!? Hehe! Build upon the stuff you already got, that’s my suggestion.

“The royal line isn't the strongest as of now. I hope that will change since the following King will likely be quite young and that gives me plenty of time to invest in him.”

It pays off to have good kings, and the best way to get that, is to let the heir fight a lot. Scotland or Malta, pick your choice (Scotland is probably safer, also don’t be afraid of upgrading some armour stuff there, thus making the opposition harder. I usually do that, 1-2 upgrades so at least the rebels think they got a chance… He he!

“Overall having lots of fun :) And enjoying the new units and buildings.”

Excellent news man.

Well that’s all I got for you this time, do keep the rest of us posted with your progress with your campaign. Is there anybody else with comments and suggestions here for Bozwolf?

Cheers man!

**William the Silent** · 10-16-2008, 23:24

I actually gave up my attempt to revive England. It's not worth it.
I'm playing russians now (Exp).
The start-off seems to be far more difficult then England, because of finances. Which I like.
I don't think it should be easy. The game has to challenge skill.
Plenty of princes this time and Byzantium gladly gives its daughters to my sons.

I noticed before that rebel armies seem to grow sometimes (I might be wrong). That is a good thing, because it makes it so more difficult to expend. But I didn't see that around the russian terratory.
It's easy to march in there with overwhelming army and take it without resistance.

I think, since the AI is not agressive, that you could make the rebel terratories stronger in force, or in rebellion like Friesland (which reflects the real nature of the Fries through history, like me

).

But you're doing a much better job in your mod then the original, which I think is too easy. It's not easy to expand without solid economy and good units.
Tyberias XL mod is beautiful, but is too easy.
The most difficult/realistic MTW mod I ever played was the MedMod. It took me about two era's to establish and survive untill I was finally in a position to expand, thanks to the unslaught between the other factions. The downside: hardly any variety in units and it's not fun to just survive for so long.

Since your game has so many turns, maybe it is an idea to slow down the progress by lenghtening the buildtime of buildings. That way we can enjoy a longer time with your less superior units in battle.
I'm kindoff sad that I have to throw them to the side so soon, to be able to match the heavies from the enemy. You have a real richness in unit choise.

Just some idea's. But maybe you have thought these things over already for years and have no desire to change it.

One more note: I noticed that Byz recruits mostly skirmish units. That makes them weak I think.

Longbows indeed great advantage. First thing you do is kill enemy general with two longbow units. After that peace of cake with the rest. Maybe they should be made small like foresters.

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