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Thread: Beijing 2008, or: who else isn't watching?
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Devastatin Dave 14:50 13/08/08
My 3 year old is in gymnastics, my 5 year old was in gymnastics, so we watch some of it. I usually don't watch but like Lemur, i have a wife, she has a vagina, so she controls the remote. I think its been pretty good so far but I will open my veins the next time I hear Phelp's name!!! That dude pisses me of. He's up there with his team recieving his last medal and chatting and laughing while the National Anthem was playing. POS. For the love of God, the other teams showed more reverance (or it could have been a temperary steroid induced coma). We watched the ladies gymnastics last night and watched one gal with a horse neck (someone check that leatard) total kill the team's chance to win. The again, those little Chinese gals (16 years old? shoot, one gal looked like Dora the explorer in the sun shining in her eyes) kicked ass. I guess they figured they better do good or else.

The saddest part in this whole thing are the folks that don't make it. I was listening to NPR (god help me) the other day and they intervued some Chinese chick that was in her late 20's. She had been training all her life to be a long distance runner by the Chinese Government. She was also in the Chinese Army and was given the choice of training or continueing a more militarily structured life. Well, now she is completely bed-ridden and unable to walk. She lives with her mother. She basically trained so much that she ruined her legs. It was sad because the mother, in front of her daughter, basically called her a waste and a shame to the family. The reporter said there are thousands of stories like this. So it says a lot that so many lives are ruined just for a few days of "glory" on the world stage. Needless to say, my daughter only goes once a week and when we were approached to have her go twice a week in a more intensive program (she's real little for her age and strong) we declined.

There are some good aspects of the Olympics but unfortunately its so watered down with stories like this and the fact that there are just too many sports cramed into it. I'll watch parts of it but not a lot.

One last thing... DemonArchangel, if you're such a happy little commie and have parents living it up as oppressors of the people, why do you live in the US? You should live in your little Utopia that your folks and others like them killed, maimed, and tortured so much for.

Adrian II 14:50 13/08/08
Originally Posted by DemonArchangel:
What truth?
If your country had press freedom, then maybe you could discuss it openly and find out what it is.

And instead of your antiquated propaganda talk I prefer to lend my ear to Chinese dissidents. One of the most outspoken is Bao Tong, former aide to the late (and ousted) Chinese premier, Zhao Ziyang. He has been under house arrest for many years, but since they are afraid to kill him he can speak his mind and smuggle his views out. Radio Free Asia published a long essay which he wrote about the Olympic Games in Beijing and the massive oppression that went into them. It's long, but very interesting, particularly since he is a former member of the elite himself.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
It is very naive to take the number of gold medals won as an indicator of the rise of China. That sort of patriotism...has nothing to do with the Olympic spirit...There are subtle differences between China and other countries when it comes to the training and selection of athletes. Other countries use athletics as a way of training the body. China uses athletics to snatch prizes.

China has sponsored a top-down professionalized system, a totally segregated approach to athletic training. Non-Chinese may not understand the term "away from production." It has its roots in the Chinese Communist Party's experience of the 1927-37 Chinese civil war, when peasants who relied on the land for their existence took up arms as their revolutionary duty to fight for a share of it. In the process, they were torn away from their families, from the rest of society, and from normal economic activities. They were said to be taken "away from production" to fulfill this task.

China's athletes are chosen as young children...and taken away from their families, from their schools, and totally cut off from normal social activities. The door is closed, and they give up their entire youth and part of their childhoods for the sole aim of entering and winning competitions, an aim for which they are totally re-molded by the system.

Elitist training

China has the largest population of any country in the world, and therefore an unending supply of human resources with which to win glory and acclaim for country and Party. But it is a totally different thing from encouraging ordinary Chinese people to get fitter and healthier.

A gold medal is just a gold medal. It is not of the same order as the well-being of the people, or the fate of the nation. The former Soviet Union won countless gold medals. The gold medals are still there today, but where is the Soviet Union?

China's array of medals and prizes was produced out of the sweat, tears, and lives of generations of athletes and paralympians...You can't use the achievements of our young people to cover up or to dilute the mistakes of the country's leaders.

The Chinese Communist Party has used the Olympics as a way of suppressing all other political duties. It has put all its energy into this for the past decade, emptying out the last drop of strength. All political, economic, propaganda, and diplomatic effort has been channeled into the Olympics. The entire Party and nation has repeated the message about the importance of the Games time and again, an importance which is greater than that of the fight against corruption, disaster relief efforts, human rights, or the livelihood and welfare of ordinary Chinese.

Ordinary citizens pay the price

It is hard to see how the efforts of ordinary people will be repaid. Aside from the more obvious contributions of effort and money from those who have it, there are all those people who have had their land grabbed away from them, or whose homes have been forcibly demolished, or who have been forced to give up their...business. Those who have been forced to return to their hometown as part of the pre-Olympics "clean-up," or those who have been detained against their will. Those who have been forbidden to speak, forbidden to conduct interviews, forbidden to offer legal services, or forbidden from helping people stand up for their civil rights or property.

There is a fly in the ointment, and that lies in the fact that the Chinese government has refused to keep the promises it made to improve human rights and to allow greater press freedom when it applied to host the Games in the first place.

In the eight years since China applied to host the Games, with the continued suppression of human rights and continuing controls on the freedom of the press, those promises have turned into nothing but empty words. And an empty promise is very hard to keep.

Chinese people who have had their rights infringed know it. A lot of the international media know it. Communist Party and government officials know it too, in their heart of hearts. Who would have the gall to propose or second this motion, to talk the empty talk about "the best Olympic Games ever"?

Manufacturing injustice

The best at suppressing the news? Maybe. The best at trampling on people's rights? Perhaps. Even though the curtain has yet to rise on the Olympics, we can say with 100 percent certainty that we have lost all hope of being "the best."

There is one extremely good thing about a one-party system, and that is that it can achieve pretty much anything it wants to. That's why Deng Xiaoping said that China should never go the way of the West, because it was terribly troublesome, and that any attempt to get anything done petered out in argument. That's quite right. Who would have dared to argue with Deng or Mao? That's why Mao announced in 1976 that Deng was an enemy of the people, and why Deng announced in 1989 that Zhao Ziyang was the enemy.

History repeats itself, and the wheel comes full circle. Leaders at every level have to deal with dissenting opinion, and at every level they have the power to brand the other a public enemy. In China, we produce miscarriages of justice and trumped-up charges like a high-intensity industrial zone, rolling them off the conveyor belt at a rate no-one else can match.

We are so efficient at it: Why stop now? It is a task beloved of Chinese officials at every level of leadership. One thing they are particularly good at, for example, is allowing people they like to get rich first. All you need to get a bank loan in the blink of an eye is the favor of a local ranking official. In the blink of another eye, you can acquire a whole state enterprise for the token price of between three and five percent of its market value, which you can then transfer into your own private ownership.

One-party system

In the same blink of the eye, you can get access to a plot of land "approved" for your use, expel a large crowd of people who live on it and farm it, and begin a lucrative career as a property developer. Will anyone make a fuss? Well, that's easy to deal with. In the blink of an eye, anyone making a fuss will have lost their livelihood and received a warning from the authorities. Who will have the courage to publish such a negative news story? That would be revealing state and Party secrets, calling all sorts of trouble down on the heads of the journalist and even the whole newspaper.

In the case of a lawsuit being filed, the lawyer will either be warned off, obstructed at every turn, or have his license to practice taken away, or be convicted himself of a criminal offense. In the case of any mass unrest, the last resort is to send the security forces in to stamp out trouble. There is one of these "mass petitioning incidents" in China every five minutes, 80,000 a year, and they are all the inevitable by-product of a one-party system.

Under today's one-party system, we have a highly efficient system for an exponential increase in the gap between rich and poor, for corruption, state-sponsored robbery, oppression, and for the control of information. All these things fit together seamlessly. This is the human rights record and the state of press freedom against which it will be very hard to gain any improvements. This is the big, bad secret.

The efficiency of the one-party system can be applied in any number of ways. For example, to stop anything from happening that Party leaders do not like. China has been a People's Republic for 59 years now, but we haven't seen any progress in the direction of democracy in any of those years. The only reason China sent a delegate to the United Nations to sign the covenants on human rights back in October 1998 was because of the forthcoming application to host the 2008 Olympics.

Voting with their feet

As soon as the bid was successful, the thing was shoved into the shadows. The National People's Congress was never asked to ratify it. Putting on a show is indeed very efficient. Actually doing something is very inefficient. Thanks to China's one-party system, they really have been able to make a momentary difference to the air quality in Beijing. But as soon as the Games are over, who knows how many lifetimes ordinary Chinese residents will have to wait to get decent air to breathe again.

There is one clear barometer of how good a political system is. It's no good listening to what people say; mouths are very unreliable. You have to look at what the feet are doing. A good system will attract people. People in China may be living quite happily, and foreigners may make light of traveling a thousand miles to visit. But would they want to emigrate here? When they have seen the Olympics, seen the show, and had a chance to understand Chinese people a bit better, and to compare China to their own country, then what? I am certain that while they will say a lot of nice things about China, they are not going to start flooding in to live here. Whereas Chinese people would be leaving in their tens of thousands if the opportunity was there. That is my prediction. History will be the judge of whether I am right or not.

linky



DemonArchangel 14:52 13/08/08
Indeed. At least the Chinese government wouldn't let him into the country, which is a good first step.

Andres 14:54 13/08/08
nvm.

Banquo's Ghost 14:59 13/08/08
Gentlemen,

We seem to have lit an Olympic flame of our own. Allow me to suggest that we allow a Zen-like calm descend upon our furrowed brows before reflecting on any further postings.

This thread was started to share a certain disillusion with the Olympic games as a spectacle, rather than to discuss Chinese politics. I am happy for a new thread to be started on that subject - minus the developing beastliness herein - and for this thread to regain its previous resigned equanimity on the original premise.

Thank you kindly.



LittleGrizzly 15:05 13/08/08
Originally Posted by DemonArchangel:
Little Grizzly: Certainly not the Dutch.
DA it certainly wasn't the Chinese either, the impression i got from your pathetic little speech was that china deserves these things because it is powerful enough to do so...

So tell me did Japan have the right to kill and rape the chinese at will because it was powerful enough to do so ?

If your answer is yes then my next question would be, if the Chinese goverment somehow loses its power and some power like japan in the 40's comes along and starts doing whatever the hell its likes to the chinese you will be ok with it, because they are powerful enough to do so ?

Or will you complain and ask for assistance similar to tibet now or chinese back in 40's

Don't dare think just because human rights pose no concern for you that other people don't care for them, as far as im concerned they are one of the most important things, i couldn't care less about chinas current power or potential power i do however care very deeply that the goverment of the worlds largest population couldn't give a damn what it does to its people, even if you don't care for your fellow countrymen i do! and i will continue to do so despite the attitudes of chinese such as yourself!

Murat: Hey, congratulations, you listed a bunch of things I disapprove of (instead of randomly jumping to Tibet). And why are there still Africans? Why are there still Native Americans? The Europeans certainly tried their best to exploit them, that's for certain

So clarify for me here... you think the europeans were right to kill lots of people and thats why your ok with the chinese doing it ?

or you know that what europeans did was wrong but support the chinese doing it because the europeans got to do it a few hundred years ago ?

I almost hope you are the victim of the human rights abuses you support so much so you can understand the cruelty and unnessecarity of them, but then i don't wish that on anyone...

Devastatin Dave 15:07 13/08/08
Originally Posted by DemonArchangel:
Also, please shut up about Tibet.
Don't tell him to shutup. He doesn't reside in some oppressed provense where the iron fist of your folks beloved party controls the masses. Did the Chinese government have to teach you how to smile before you came over to the US? That's hillarious that they actually had to tell their own people to smile for this event. What a place to live that you have to have the government tell you when its alright to smile. Sounds like a great place to live to me!!! One more thing, I guess those little chinese girls on the gymnastic team should really be smiling since they didn't get slaughtered by their parents for the hopes of having a boy, or that they havn't been shot or killed for saying anything bad about your parents party. I bet their also happy they got the gold, I shudder to think what will happen to any Chinese athlete that doesn't place in their repective events. You and your government's a joke and I'll say it till I'm blue in the face because, I CAN without having to worry about a bunch of brain washed commie goons coming to kill me or my family for just being a human being with his own beliefs, not some done in a colony of homocidal bees.

Adrian II 15:08 13/08/08
Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost:
Gentlemen,

We seem to have lit an Olympic flame of our own. Allow me to suggest that we allow a Zen-like calm descend upon our furrowed brows before reflecting on any further postings.

This thread was started to share a certain disillusion with the Olympic games as a spectacle, rather than to discuss Chinese politics. I am happy for a new thread to be started on that subject - minus the developing beastliness herein - and for this thread to regain its previous resigned equanimity on the original premise.

Thank you kindly.

As a matter of fact I started this thread to share my disgust at the spectacle against a background of oppression, corruption and deceit. If some posters descend into beastliness, I fail to see why the thread as such should be either closed or reduced to the Games as a spectacle. Maybe someone else could open a thread about the Games as a spectacle. I'll be happy to discuss the original premiss in this thread without any beastliness.

Devastatin Dave 15:09 13/08/08
Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost:
Gentlemen,

We seem to have lit an Olympic flame of our own. Allow me to suggest that we allow a Zen-like calm descend upon our furrowed brows before reflecting on any further postings.

This thread was started to share a certain disillusion with the Olympic games as a spectacle, rather than to discuss Chinese politics. I am happy for a new thread to be started on that subject - minus the developing beastliness herein - and for this thread to regain its previous resigned equanimity on the original premise.

Thank you kindly.

Oops sorry, I type slow and you got this posted before i posted my last post.

So in the spirit of the Olympic...

Good luck DA with your team and...

FREE TIBET!!!!!

JR- 15:09 13/08/08
i don't have a TV to start with, but i haven't followed the olympics via any means at all.

DemonArchangel 15:09 13/08/08
Adrian: I know the truth, everyone does. You don't seem to understand the meaning of sacrifice. Also, if the Chinese really wanted Bao Tong dead, if they really wanted to cut off his communications, that essay would never have gotten to Radio Free Asia, because Bao Tong would be in a camp in Xinjiang, chipping at rocks with a screwdriver for the rest of his life instead of being able to sit in his house and publish essays for Radio Free Asia. Go to China, live among its people, stay there for a bit. Censorship is a joke in China, and only exists in name.

Dave: $. Also, I'm sorry to hear that you're being forced to watch the Olympics. Also, I am glad you are regulating the amount of time your daughter spends on potentially joint damaging activities like gymnastics.

Banquo's Ghost 15:09 13/08/08
EDIT: Re-opened. Please continue in a civil manner.



Strike For The South 18:59 14/08/08
Im just waiting for track at which point the USA will crack skulls and break records. USA! USA! USA! USA! USA!

rvg 19:15 14/08/08
Originally Posted by Strike For The South:
...USA! USA! USA! USA! USA!
Whooping on Greece in basketball felt rather good.

TevashSzat 19:24 14/08/08
This is just a repost of my rather long post in another thread here with some changes here or there:

I am a native Chinese here and was born in Beijing. I'm a permanent resident in the US atm. Didn't really want to get into the discussion before since frankly, I don't want to spend all that time writing posts as long as this one

Anyways, I'll try to give some thoughts, some anecdotes, and basically give you a Chinese viewpoint

Okay first of all, Communism, imo, works on paper but will never even come close to success in real life which is why the only reason the Chinese government hasn't fallen yet is that right now, it's not really even attempting to keep the Communism ideal; its is just communist in name.

As for why we adopted it, keep this in mind. China has a 5000 year history. We, as a civilization, have been one of the most dominant nations in the world until the modern times. We rivaled the Romans, the Greeks, any ancient civilization you can name and ancient China was probably comparable if not better. In China right now, basically these last 100-150 years were called something like the century of downfall when we went from the best in the world to one of the most underdeveloped ones.

The nationalists, who were in power for about 3-4 decades before WWII. They were democratic, but they had horrible corruption and generally did not rule the country well at all. Once Japan invaded China and WWII began, the nationalists lost horribly and the nation was basically razed. Given China's state at that point, I doubt any government could have done too much better, but the nationalists were the government at that time and their failure created the impetus for the rise of the Communist Party. Now might it have been better had the nationalists survived? Perhaps, but you would never know how world history might have changed.

Now, has the Communist government in the past half a century or so done some terrible things? Yes, without a doubt and the people do know that. However, China is one of the great powers of the world now and is only growing in power, which I don't think anyone can deny. Progress has been made and the average person is living MUCH better than half a century ago. As much as the critics blame the Chinese government for human rights issues, there is no doubt that the country has improved tremendously.

Now, many have said that China only improved once the Communist restrictions were lifted, but that is not the full picture. The Cultural Revolution, as horrible as it was, did have a few benefits: it gave a chance to millions of poor farmers and created a generation determined to succeed. My father was born is a very very poor village in one of the poorest provinces in China. He literally lived in a mud hut, his father was a blacksmith, and they sold crops for a living and this was in the 60s/70s. In any nation, he would basically grow up like his father and would never improve in socioeconomic status.

Now, the cultural revolution equaled the educational opportunities between rural and urban areas. My father studied hard and managed to get into one of the best medical schools in the country. He graduated and became a cardiologist. Now, with a more capitalistic kinda society setting in, there is absolutely 100% no chance of that happening. NO CHANCE. I don't care if the child is as smart as Albert Einstein, but the simply fact is that if your family background is that poor, the disparity between rural and urban areas is too large for anyone to cross

As for the Tibet issue, this is what the people feel: Before China went in, Tibet was terribly backwards, even by Chinese standards at that time, which is saying alot. Now, Tibet has improved tremendously, even for the natives there. For gods sake, I've seen monks using cell phones in Tibet. Now, lots of people have been killed in Tibet, but so have millions in rest of China so most people feel that there is nothing special or overly harsh that Tibet has suffered through.

Essentially, most people see Tibet trying to get independence right after it has gained a tremendous amount of benefit from China and tons of investment. Its akin to something like Hawaii wanting independence right now from the US (well, thats not the best comparison there, but still). Hawaii, btw, only joined the United States because the wealthy sugar plantation owners and what not started a Coup to overthrow Hawaii's rightful government.

I can say that for the near future, barring some major change in world politics, Tibet will never be free. If it declares independence, China will surely invade and crush the opposition easily. Now, don't say that the US will help or anything because it won't. Just look at Georgia and Russia right now. Georgia is actually a sovereign nation and all the US is doing is sending in humanitarian supplies....

China and US have too much of a symbiotic relationship for either country to break off relations. US needs China for borrowing money for government debts and for cheap Chinese goods. Without Chinese goods, the US economy will downspiral and crash and there will be another great depression. China needs US consumers to buy Chinese goods and if US stops buying them, the Chinese boom will collapse and there will be a great depression too.

So.... this 862 word reply is finally finished.....and yeah. Kinda a semi rant, but I'm hopefully coherent enough there. Please don't end up making me write another one because this really takes up alot of time....

Another addition here: I feel that the Western mindset is very different from the Chinese mindset. Western nations are outraged bu China's human right violations and I am too up to a point. Keep in mind, though, that to a vast majority of the Chinese, fighting local government corruption is much bigger on their priorities than making sure they have freedom of speech or religion. In fact, those arguing for Tibet and the Xinjiang independence are considered to be on the fringe and radicals in China.

Sasaki Kojiro 06:37 15/08/08
Originally Posted by Adrian II:
So who else isn't watching this stupendous display of trivia and hysteria? You aan I are probably the only ones and we may not even agree on the reason why we don't watch.

I don't watch because the games are kitsch. They represent power politics, big money and chauvinism and have nothing to do with sports, certainly not amateur sports, although they profess to be about nothing but the latter.
Your inability to separate politics from the rest is your own problem. If seeing the face of a first time olympic medal winner doesn't bring a smile to your face then I don't know what to say to you.

Originally Posted by :
Feng Jianzhong, deputy chief of the Chinese Sports Affairs Bureau, has stated that the last candidate to bear the Olympic torch would 'represent the image of China, can communicate with the world and can show the Olympic spirit.' Well, Mr Li Ning, of Li Ning Sportswear Ltd, certainly did. His company made a handsome profit on the Hong Kong stock exchange this week.
Li Ning is a famous chinese gymnast with six olympic medals including three gold.

Originally Posted by :
Call me oldfashioned, but to me it's simply distasteful to see all those vain, empty-headed sports figures assembling in one of the world's worst dictatorships and doing their inane little routines with balls and spears and stuff, and all the world is watching it on tv and going 'aaah', oblivious of the millions of slaves in China's camp system, some of whom live not far from Beijing since they had to help build some of the facilities.
Your starting to smell a bit of intellectual snobbery here adrian...

Originally Posted by :
Bah. At least the Roman circuses were the real deal, they weren't effeminate celebrations of commercialism that destroyed the manly spirit of the observers; they inspired them to face wounds and death scornfully, to celebrate the glory and victory even of criminals and slaves as long as they demonstrated aptitude, courage and persistence.
I don't suppose the people watching them and going "aaah" were oblivious of the conditions lived in were they?






I really enjoy the olympics myself. My only beef with the coverage so far has been their insistence on showing so many swimming heats and semifinals. The are a bunch of boring sports in the olympics but fortunately they don't show most of them (with the exception of beach volleyball). The olympics is all about swimming, track and field, and gymnastics.

Adrian II 07:57 15/08/08
Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro:
Your inability to separate politics from the rest is your own problem.
The Chinese don't make the distinction. Failing to spot that is deeply naive.
Originally Posted by :
Li Ning is a famous Chinese gymnast with six olympic medals including three gold.
Li Ning is a trained rabbit, the product of a totalitarian state that used all legal and illegal means in its arsenal to raise, train and promote him. And because he plays his role of loyal supporter of the regime to the hilt, he was allowed to start his business venture and prosper. If not, he would have been in prison. Li Ning is an experiment in human engineering, he has nothing to do with sports. And if you had read the piece by Bao Tong which I linked, you would have an idea of the tremendous costs to society of such experiments.

And yes, I have seen winners smile. I saw a Chinese female gymnast smile after she won; she still had baby teeth because she is far younger than the required age of 16.

You're watching a freak show, my friend. You may prefer to remain deaf and blind to unpatalable truths, that is your right. Just don't accuse others of snobbery because they refuse to buy into it.

discovery1 09:20 15/08/08
Originally Posted by Adrian II:

And yes, I have seen winners smile. I saw a Chinese female gymnast smile after she won; she still had baby teeth because she is far younger than the required age of 16.
So the Chinese team really is 12 and not just looking it?! Damn.

You know, I once thought that if I were the best in my field it wouldn't matter, for me anyway, where I worked. I don't think that's true anymore.

Adrian II 09:27 15/08/08
Originally Posted by discovery1:
So the Chinese team really is 12 and not just looking it?! Damn.

You know, I once thought that if I were the best in my field it wouldn't matter, for me anyway, where I worked. I don't think that's true anymore.
The Chinese Gymastics Federation listed their true ages previously on a website, but now their papers have been changed and the Olympic Committee has hushed it up. Things like that happen all the time, and all nations do it if they can. It's sickening. Most of the winners in gymnastics were never allowed to be their own age if you catch my drift. But the totalitarian states ar far worse in every respect. Just look into the info coming from former East Block states about their former athletic and gymnastics programs. Trained rabbits, my man.

PanzerJaeger 11:03 15/08/08
Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro:
Your starting to smell a bit of intellectual snobbery here adrian...
Ya, he better stay out of there. You know how the Chinese treat intellectuals.... and journalists.

TevashSzat 12:35 15/08/08
This is a question to all who happen to apparently hate China's government:

Have you ever lived in China for a long period of time? Have you ever interacted with Chinese natives who aren't in the minority? Have you guys made any attempt to understand Chinese culture and thinking?

From what I can tell so far, most who has lived in China for a significant amount of time, whether a native or a foreigner, acknowledges the Chinese government's problems, but realizes that it is improving the people's lives.

Also, China's power in this world for the time being is here to stay. I bet most people here (don't know about you guys over in Europe) can find dozens of items in their house that are made in China. Whether you hate China's government or not, without China, the world's economy will go kaput

Adrian II 12:54 15/08/08
Originally Posted by TevashSzat:
From what I can tell so far, most who has lived in China for a significant amount of time, whether a native or a foreigner, acknowledges the Chinese government's problems, but realizes that it is improving the people's lives.
Except the lives of religious people, ethnic minorities, political dissidents, and the millions who were more or less randomly whisked off to Laogai, the world's largest covert network of forced labor camps. Like Bao Tong said': 'In China, we produce miscarriages of justice and trumped-up charges like a high-intensity industrial zone.'

I feel that much of China's recent economic progress is the result of the energy and initiative of ordinary Chinese, enabled because the government is finally off their back in some areas of the economy.

HoreTore 12:59 15/08/08
Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave:
She basically trained so much that she ruined her legs.
She's welcome to join "HoreTore's Club of People Who Screwed Their Legs From Too Much Running, Skating and/or Skiing".

Yes, that even happens in democratic countries

TevashSzat 13:02 15/08/08
Originally Posted by Adrian II:
Except the lives of religious people, ethnic minorities, political dissidents, and the millions who were more or less randomly whisked off to Laogai, the world's largest covert network of forced labor camps. Like Bao Tong said': 'In China, we produce miscarriages of justice and trumped-up charges like a high-intensity industrial zone.'

I feel that much of China's recent economic progress is the result of the energy and initiative of ordinary Chinese, enabled because the government is finally off their back in some areas of the economy.
Okay, that is true, I don't deny it.

Name a civilization that has lasted for any significant amount of time who hasn't done most of these things at once in their history. I have studied US History for quite alot and I can quickly come up a very very long list of things that have rivaled the atrocities of the Chinese Government (Indians and smallpox come to mind here). Imperialistic Europe caused countless hardships in the lives of billions. In fact, the rise of the Communist party is in part due to the European undermining of the nationalist democratic government that caused it to be viewed weak in the minds of the whole country.

In fact, its not just China's economic growth, but the whole world's. So many companies rely on China's cheap labor and sweatshops that the whole world is dependent on China as much as China is dependent on everyone else is.

Viking 13:17 15/08/08
Originally Posted by TevashSzat:
Okay, that is true, I don't deny it.

Name a civilization that has lasted for any significant amount of time who hasn't done most of these things at once in their history. I have studied US History for quite alot and I can quickly come up a very very long list of things that have rivaled the atrocities of the Chinese Government (Indians and smallpox come to mind here). Imperialistic Europe caused countless hardships in the lives of billions. In fact, the rise of the Communist party is in part due to the European undermining of the nationalist democratic government that caused it to be viewed weak in the minds of the whole country.

In fact, its not just China's economic growth, but the whole world's. So many companies rely on China's cheap labor and sweatshops that the whole world is dependent on China as much as China is dependent on everyone else is.
I fail to see the point; you should compare China to the rest of the world as it currently is.

EDIT: If one would should bother to compare at all; it's not really good for anything.

Louis VI the Fat 14:59 15/08/08
Originally Posted by TevashSzat:
This is a question to all who happen to apparently hate China's government:

Have you ever lived in China for a long period of time? Have you ever interacted with Chinese natives who aren't in the minority? Have you guys made any attempt to understand Chinese culture and thinking?
Chinese culture is difficult to comprehend from the outside. It is inward looking, and Chinese, individually or collectively, have a tendency to close like an oyster at any criticism.
Having said that, the world is quite accustomed to Chinese. There are Chinatowns everywhere, their kids go to school with everybody else. And there are Taiwan, Singapore, Hong Kong. More open, more free Chinese offshoot countries.

All you have to do with Chinese is stop treating them like pack mules and they prosper. There's no 'need' for China to be authoritarian. Nor is the improvement of the quality of life an excuse. Nor is the very tiresome 'but you did it too' a proper argument for those over the age of six.


It is precisely because China is here to stay, because it is inevitable that China will assume it's place as the world's biggest superpower, that Chinese authoritarianism feels at once misplaced, outdated and, indeed, threatening. The current China mixes the indignified retoric of a state that feels wronged by history and unacknowledged by the outside world, with the arrogance of a superpower.


On a personal note, my hairdresser of course is Asian. A few gays from Hong Kong and mainland China. Why? A) Never have your hair cut by heterosexuals. And b) hipness flows from East to West. Tokyo - London - New York - Los Angeles. From these capitals hipness flows to the continental masses of Asia, the European continent and the US. Once something has reached LA you do not want to be associated with it even when dead.
Why is that relevant? Because they are the face of China to me. How some geriatrics, power hungry Chinese officials and those horrid IOC members think that mass spectacles like these Olympics impress anyone or project 'power and progress' is beyond me. Maybe it did in Bucarest in 1978. In Pyongyang too. But not in the globalised world of 2008.

DemonArchangel 22:19 15/08/08
Louis: About the opening ceremony, I somehow doubt it was about "power" and "progress" and more about Zhang Yimou's own arrogance and showmanship demanding that he do something massive (ever see the movie Hero?). Couple that with a near unlimited budget, and you have the opening ceremony for the Olympic Games. I had the honor of watching Zhang Yimou's rendition of Turandot in Germany a few years back, and it was massive and awesome, just like a miniature version of the Olympic Opening Ceremony.

Papewaio 09:10 16/08/08
Originally Posted by TevashSzat:
Okay, that is true, I don't deny it.

Name a civilization that has lasted for any significant amount of time who hasn't done most of these things at once in their history. I have studied US History for quite alot and I can quickly come up a very very long list of things that have rivaled the atrocities of the Chinese Government (Indians and smallpox come to mind here). Imperialistic Europe caused countless hardships in the lives of billions. In fact, the rise of the Communist party is in part due to the European undermining of the nationalist democratic government that caused it to be viewed weak in the minds of the whole country.

In fact, its not just China's economic growth, but the whole world's. So many companies rely on China's cheap labor and sweatshops that the whole world is dependent on China as much as China is dependent on everyone else is.
Chinese athletes aren't competing against the European athletes times of a hundred years ago so why try an essentially unfair comparison of governments out of time sync?

Also with respect to labour, its just that. Labour. Not super skilled design and engineering, it is basic manufacturing. In time the ratios are improving. But labour is found anywhere, and right now a lot of companies are preferring Malaysia, India and Vietnam for their East Asian labour pools. Also Eastern Europe and South America beckon.

I don't think it is anything special that Australia is a quarry and that China is the manufacturers. Neither of us are at the right end of the spectrum compared to engineers, designers and high end consumers.

Nor do I think being the best a thousand years ago counts for much. One must live the life they have now, not the one of their ancestors.

Communist China is growing. Democratic China would flourish.

Moros 14:10 16/08/08
Originally Posted by Papewaio:
Communist China is growing. Democratic China would flourish.
Amen!

ICantSpellDawg 04:20 17/08/08
solid gold shut out, baby. sorry aussies.

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