Best army composition for....

[LorDBulA]

Hi guys.

I am wondering what is you best army composition for all factions.

I am looking for realistic army composition so this means no abusing of slingers and elite troops.
Right now I am most interested in this factions: Carthage, Lusotannan and Gauls but would like to get your opinion on all factions with time.

Thanks.

[konny]

SPQR: The best composition is in fact the historical line-up

1x Velites (Leves in Camillan times)
1x Accensi (or better local missile)
2x Hastati
2x Principes
1x Triarii (2x in Camillan times)
1x Cavalry or additional FM
1x General

Double this for a full consular army.

Succesor: Should be phalanx heavy:

4x Phalanx (keep together on the field)
2x Flankers (Peltastai, Thureophoroi or better)
1x Missilie or other Aux. (enemies are often other good armoured Greek, so no need to spam missile)
1x General
2x Cavalry (1 light/medium and 1 heavy best)

A full stack should not simply double this but raise the proportion of flankers and other auxiliar.

Can also be used for a late or "European" Carthagian army; may be with only 2 or 3 phalanx and more missile or light cavalry depending on the enemy.

Greek: Basicaly the same but replace phalanx with Classical Hoplites or a Thureophoroi/Peltastai mix. Can also be used for a early or "African" Carthagian army with variations when either fighting Numidians or Ptolemaians.

Eastern: Pontos, Armenia, and to lesser extend Parthia and Baktria. Can also be used with the Seleukids to fight these people

2x FMs or real heavy cavalry (no Asiatikoi Hippeis and the like)
2x Light Cavalry (preferable horse archers)
2x Foot Archers (top would be Syrians or Skythians)
2x Spear (might be phalanx, but doesn't really fit this style of combat; Pantodapoi can do as well)
2x Flankers (sword or axe)

Barbarian: The best the better. Barbarian units usually don't have special roles like phalanx or horse-archers can all replace each other.

That is save for missile and cavalry. Cavalry is not so usefull because your (Barbarian) enemies will use spears in huge numbers and even the best Barbarian cavalry, Brithentin, aren't really battle-tanks.

Archers are very usefull because your enemies will not be well armoured. So have 2 of them in each half stack. Otherwise you should prefer swords over spears because of the boni.

Fighting Romans with them is a different story, because Romans are perfectly equipped to fight Celts and the like....

[Che Roriniho]

I've got the Correct hisrical things for Romani and the Maks, which is in my Manual [/shameless plugging]

I kno that Konny made some mock-ups of a decent amount of the facttions usinng some website as a guide. not sure how accurate these are, as I know previously this website hadn't always been enrtirely accurate. Worth a shot though.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

SPQR: The best composition is in fact the historical line-up

1x Velites (Leves in Camillan times)
1x Accensi (or better local missile)
2x Hastati
2x Principes
1x Triarii (2x in Camillan times)
1x Cavalry or additional FM
1x General

Double this for a full consular army.

How would you set up a fullstack Polybian legion? To my understanding...

4x Velites
4x Hastati
4x Principes
2x Triarii
2x Equites Romani
1x General

Now there are three spaces left. Additional missile troops? Cavalry?

Also I'd like to know if the Romans used Pedites and Equites Extraordinarii in Polybian times, or would these units be a "Camillan only" selection? The reason is I want to give my Roman enemies a cheat-legion.

[QuintusSertorius]

Shockingly cheap, widely available (even as mercenaries) army for almost anyone, because it's primarily Hellenic:

4 x Classical Hoplites
2 x Thureophoroi
2 x Peltastai (optional whether you switch for Thrakians)
2 x Kretan Archers
2 x Gallic Slingers (or anyone else)
2 x Heavy Infantry

2 x Family Members
2 x Light-medium cavalry like Curepos or Illyrian Hippeis

Leaving two slots free for whatever else. If you want a smaller stack, drop one of the hoplites, halve your slingers, archers and cavalry, and ditch the heavy infantry.

[QuintusSertorius]

Also I'd like to know if the Romans used Pedites and Equites Extraordinarii in Polybian times, or would these units be a "Camillan only" selection? The reason is I want to give my Roman enemies a cheat-legion.

They most certainly did use pedites extraordinarii in Polybian times. In the siege of Nova Carthago, it was they who forded the lake, I believe.

But one unit in a full stack is as many as there should be.

[konny]

How would you set up a fullstack Polybian legion? To my understanding...

4x Velites
4x Hastati
4x Principes
2x Triarii
2x Equites Romani
1x General

Now there are three spaces left. Additional missile troops? Cavalry?

Also I'd like to know if the Romans used Pedites and Equites Extraordinarii in Polybian times, or would these units be a "Camillan only" selection? The reason is I want to give my Roman enemies a cheat-legion.

Yes, a true Consular army should have a unit of Pedites and Equites Extraordinarii each:

2x Velites
2x Accensi (or better local missile)
4x Hastati
4x Principes
2x Triarii
1x Cavalry or additional FM (not more, otherwise you would be fielding to much Roman cavalry)
1x Equites Extraordinarii
1x Pedites Extraordinarii
1x General

In Camillan time you need the additional 2 slots for Triarii. In Polybian times I usually leave them out, that makes the Polybian Legions a bit cheaper and allows to field more of them.

[QuintusSertorius]

SPQR: The best composition is in fact the historical line-up

1x Velites (Leves in Camillan times)
1x Accensi (or better local missile)
2x Hastati
2x Principes
1x Triarii (2x in Camillan times)
1x Cavalry or additional FM
1x General

Double this for a full consular army.

I know it's an old argument, but I really don't agree with these all-Roman setups (especially not in Camillian times), when we have Italian troops on the roster. Post-Second Punic War I can certainly see these as being necessary, but before that I think there are all kinds of reasons to use Samnites, Bruttians, Lucanians and Campanians in the roster, not least to give the army a bit of variety

[konny]

SPQR cannot recruite Lucanians. Bruttians come as Level 3 regional unit, so not recruitable in Homeland governments. Campanians are part of the cavalry, what leaves it the two Samnite units. So, unless you change a few things, you have to use the "Romans" as both, Legions and Allies.

[Che Roriniho]

I know it's an old argument, but I really don't agree with these all-Roman setups (especially not in Camillian times), when we have Italian troops on the roster. Post-Second Punic War I can certainly see these as being necessary, but before that I think there are all kinds of reasons to use Samnites, Bruttians, Lucanians and Campanians in the roster, not least to give the army a bit of variety

I agree. The Socii were an important part of the Roman armies, which is why I have 8 units of them in my Camilland and Polybian armies.

2 Allied Ranged (with the Velites/leves and accensi)
2 allied Light Infantry (on either side of the Hastati)
2 Allied Heavy Infantry (on the principes flanks)
1 Pedites Extraordinarii (In front of the 2 FM's in Polybian, behind in camillan)
and 2 Allied Cavalry, who go on the wings.
I have 2 faction members to make up for the lack of E. Romani. who are crap anyway, so everyone wins.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Yes, a true Consular army should have a unit of Pedites and Equites Extraordinarii each:

2x Velites
2x Accensi (or better local missile)
4x Hastati
4x Principes
2x Triarii
1x Cavalry or additional FM (not more, otherwise you would be fielding to much Roman cavalry)
1x Equites Extraordinarii
1x Pedites Extraordinarii
1x General

In Camillan time you need the additional 2 slots for Triarii. In Polybian times I usually leave them out, that makes the Polybian Legions a bit cheaper and allows to field more of them.

Thank you for your answer konny, I always thought that the division of the light infantry in Rorarii, Leves and Accensi came to an end in Polybian times, and thus all light infantry were Velites.

[konny]

Thank you for your answer konny, I always thought that the division of the light infantry in Rorarii, Leves and Accensi came to an end in Polybian times, and thus all light infantry were Velites.

It isn't easy to say which types represented real fighters or how these had been armed. For example, "Accensi" might as well have been non-combatants such as messangers or camp workers. As far as I recall, Mommsen, Ranke or some other older author said Velites originally had not been armed but were equipped with weapons that became available during the campaign. That is certainly not true. The equipement or tactical role of Leves and Rorarii seems to be unclear as well. For example, Leves might have fought together Hastati; what would be a unit more like our Rorari.

After all it is also hard to belive that the Roman army of the Punic Wars fought completly without ranged weapons, save for javelins, when those played an important role in every other army and also, for example, in the later Imperial Legions every soldier was trained in using the sling. The most likely candidates for using slings or bows in the Republican army would have been members of the Rorarii/Accensi/Leves/Velites-class.

In gameplay terms you can (and should!) still recruite Accensi in Polybian times, regardless of the name of the unit.

[Maion Maroneios]

If you want my oppinion, I think a good army composition for Successor armies would be the following (at least they do a ery good job for me):

General x 1 (GR)
Heavy Cavalry x 2 (HC)
Medium Cavalry x 1 (MC)
Medium Phalangites x 4 (MP)
Elite Phalangites x 2 (EP)
Archers/Slingers x 2 (A/S)
Elite Infantry x 2 (EI)
Flanking Infantry x 3 (FI)
Reserve Troops x 3 (RT)

This is the composition I favour the most when playing as a Successor faction. I deploy my army as follows:

-------------(FI)-(MP)-(MP)-(EP)-(EP)-(MP)-(MP)-(EI-EI)---------------
-----------------------(RT)----(RT)---(RT)-----------------------------
--------(FI)--(HC)---------(A/S)-----------(A/S)---(MC)--(FI)----------
--------(HC)----------------------------------------------(G)----------

I find this quite an effectve composition and I guess it is historical to some degree, mostly due to the facts that I place my elite phalangites in the center of the battle line and my elite infantry on the right wing.

Maion

[Tristuskhan]

Dare I?
I suppose someone must:

General

2x Grivpanvar

4x armoured horse archers
8x Parthian or Dahae nobles

Fill with whaterver cheap anvil (if you must) and you have the best Pahlavan army!

[Che Roriniho]

For Makedonia: (based on Alexandros's and Phillipos's armies)

1 General
1 Hetairoi
6 Phalanxes (I use 4 Pezhatairoi and Angyrspidai, as this seems the most reasonable, and works best in terms of balance)
1 Toxotoi
1 Hippies Thessalonikoi
1 Akontistai
1 Spendonetai
2 Hetairoi Aspidophoroi
2 Peltasts
1 Hypaspists
2 Allied Infantry (Agarian Assault Infantry, for example)

I' unsure what to fill the extra gap with. Either Peltastae Makedonikoi, or another Hippies Thessalonikoi.

[QuintusSertorius]

Didn't Hellenistic armies rarely make use of reserves?

[Fiddler]

Alexander did, for instance at Gaugamela (in that case classic greek hoplites) ,but thats pre-hellenistic.
AFAIK your right as far as hellenistic armies go, with the phalanx as hammer and not anvil anymore, though things like thorakitai and thurephoroi give at least the possibility for reserves.

[Che Roriniho]

Alexander did, for instance at Gaugamela (in that case classic greek hoplites) ,but thats pre-hellenistic.
AFAIK your right as far as hellenistic armies go, with the phalanx as hammer and not anvil anymore, though things like thorakitai and thurephoroi give at least the possibility for reserves.

For reserves, Alexandros did frequently use Agrarians, which, when not used in asssaults on the flanks, were kept in reserve, so they could lob their javelins, which they were famous for doing well, at their enemies.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

It isn't easy to say which types represented real fighters or how these had been armed. For example, "Accensi" might as well have been non-combatants such as messangers or camp workers. As far as I recall, Mommsen, Ranke or some other older author said Velites originally had not been armed but were equipped with weapons that became available during the campaign. That is certainly not true. The equipement or tactical role of Leves and Rorarii seems to be unclear as well. For example, Leves might have fought together Hastati; what would be a unit more like our Rorari.

After all it is also hard to belive that the Roman army of the Punic Wars fought completly without ranged weapons, save for javelins, when those played an important role in every other army and also, for example, in the later Imperial Legions every soldier was trained in using the sling. The most likely candidates for using slings or bows in the Republican army would have been members of the Rorarii/Accensi/Leves/Velites-class.

In gameplay terms you can (and should!) still recruite Accensi in Polybian times, regardless of the name of the unit.

Thanks for the detailed explanation, konny.

My Makedonian army is as follows:

1x General
1x Hetairoi
1x Hippeis Thessalikoi
2x (Thraikoi) Prodromoi
1x Argyraspides
4x (Hysteroi) Pezhetairoi
1x Peltastai Makedonikoi
2x Thureophoroi
2x Kuarothoroi
2x Agrianikoi Pelekuphoroi / Thraikioi Rhompaiaphoroi / Cordinau Orca
1x Thraikioi Peltastai
2x Toxotai Kretikoi / Syriakoi / Thureopherontes

I don't think I have to many elites. I don't know whether it's historically correct, but well, historically correct would it be to lose three wars against the Romans.

Here I've made a diagram.
Black = heavy, grey = light(er), hollow = peltasts and archers, diagonally divided = cavalry, turquois = enemy hordes.
Triangle = phalanx / spear infantry, "swords" = attack infantry, stick = ranged infantry, flag = cavalry, sun = general.
H = Hetairoi, T = Thessalian Horse, P = Prodromoi.

[Che Roriniho]

you might find this useful for early Makedonian armies. It can also be adapted for other Diodochi.

[LorDBulA]

Thanks for the info. Keep it coming still a lot of factions left.
Where are the barbarians fans?

[Che Roriniho]

Thanks for the info. Keep it coming still a lot of factions left.
Where are the barbarians fans?

well, we don't actually know what they used, as quite often, they relied on ambushing, or sheer numbers. Likewise, they din't wright anything down, which is a bit of a bugger for finding out how they rolled.

[||Lz3||]

just use 20 diferent units and stack them together

[Che Roriniho]

just use 20 diferent units and stack them together

Not quite like that, but it's not far off. when playing as the barbarians, you gotta remember: variety is the spice of life! but I think something like:

1 General
1 fm
4-5 missile troops (other barbs are basically unarmoured)
6-8 line troops
2 cav (maybe 4)
2-4 reserves
rest fill with elites

for Sauromatae and Saka, you basically have 2 armies: The raid army, and the siege army

Raid:
All horse archers
2 FMs
4-6 Nobles
4-6 Riders
4-6 standard HAs

Siege:
For well, sieging.
2 FMs
4-6 Heavy Infantry
2-3 Lighter Infantry
2-3 Foot Archers
1-2 Nobles
1-2 Riders
1-2 standard HA's.

The basic goal of these guys is to kill as quickly and as efficiently as possible.

[Ibrahim]

I just tend to phalanx heavy, and relatively improvised. though in an AS campaign, i do form armies like this:

1x general
2x cavalry
3x flanking troops
3x assualt troops (e.i guards). they get the most chevs, because they and only they assault cities (yea, I know what your thinking)
7x phalangites (at least one must be superior to the others)
2x archers
2x "optionals". dpending on where I am, that could be slingers, elephants, siege, or anything under the sun (one siege I even lobbed 2 siege weapons-the 1-talenters). i think slingers are the best option, thuogh HA's are good

with the romans, the starting units are simply lumped together, so an legion is 1 unit of each type, with 6 infantry and 1 cavalry. I have 2 of those, plus a general, leaves 5 slots to use on Italian auxilia (no archers, but lots o' slingers)

[LorDBulA]

well, we don't actually know what they used

Well I didn't ask for historical army composition but EB army composition that you find the best.

For example if I remember correctly reformed Aedui army i used was something along this lines:

2 x Solduros
2 x Golberi Curoas
4 x Bataroas
6 x Batacorii
2 x Sotaroas
1 x Iaosatae
2 x Brihentin
General

[Taliferno]

A Casse army that I find effective, both in campaign and custom battles.

1 Generals Body Guard
1 Chariot unit (or second general)
7 Semi-Professional Spears (Usually Gaeroas, but regionals such as Cemmeinarn, Silurae Birnai and Vellinica can do just as well)
4 light cavalry (Usually Myrcharn, but use the regionals if you can)
2 Uirodusios
1 Skirmisher (Your preference, I usually use Balroae for their numbers)
1 Rycalawre
3 "Hard hitting" infantry (I usually use the Belgae Milnaht, but if you have the money or need more staying power use Eiras or Calawre. If on a tight budget Teceitos or Botroas)

Most barbarian armies in EB don't have the defence or the staying power to compete in a fair fight against other factions. Although it is possible to make such an army, they generally dont have the numbers or are just to expensive to truely compete. Therefore, I find it easiest to focus on another factor, morale, to win my battles, and this is particulary effective with the Casse.
In the list above the chariots inspire my own units, stopping them from routing, whilst inspiring fear in the enemy. The Uirodusios also add to this fear effect. The Spear units add shear weight of numbers to the assault, again lowering the moral of the enemy. The Skirmishers rush out in front of the spear units to try and absorb as much missile fire as possible. Light Calvary deal with enemy cavalry to the best of their ability, and can be joined by a chariot unit or my reserves if in trouble. The reserves consist of the Rycalawre and the hard hitting infantry. They plug any holes appearing in my line, take advantage of holes in the enemies, or rush around a flank. The Rycalawres champion ability make them particulary good for stabilising faltering battle lines.

[Che Roriniho]

Well I didn't ask for historical army composition but EB army composition that you find the best.

For example if I remember correctly reformed Aedui army i used was something along this lines:

2 x Solduros
2 x Golberi Curoas
4 x Bataroas
6 x Batacorii
2 x Sotaroas
1 x Iaosatae
2 x Brihentin
General

Cheers. Into the manual, it goes!

[The Celtic Viking]

Well I didn't ask for historical army composition but EB army composition that you find the best.

For example if I remember correctly reformed Aedui army i used was something along this lines:

2 x Solduros
2 x Golberi Curoas
4 x Bataroas
6 x Batacorii
2 x Sotaroas
1 x Iaosatae
2 x Brihentin
General

Cheers. Into the manual, it goes!

I would certainly hope not, since it lacks 3 units I feel are obligatory, considering that he's likely talking of a post second reforms Aedui army judging from the brihentin (otherwise it's still 2). These are the Neitos, Leuce Epos and the Gaesatae. No Time of Soldiers army should go without them, or at least no army for a manual should. Another thing to note is that the Batacorii are only available in the Belgae settlements and southern Britain, so not really viable for an army in southern Gaul.

But something like...

1x General
1x Heavy Cavalry (Brihentin, Remi Mairepos etc.)
2x Light/Medium Cavalry (Leuce Epos, Taramannos etc.)
3x Missile (iaosatae, sotaroas)
1x Elite Infantry (Solduros, Arjos, Carnutes Cingetos etc.)
3x Heavy Infantry (Gaesatae, Neitos etc.)
4x Medium Infantry (Bataroas, Botroas, K-H Hoplitae etc.)
5x Spearmen (Gaelaiche, Caturiges Gaedann, Noricene Gaecori etc.)

... Perhaps? I don't know. I'm not going after any pre-made setup when I play a Celtic faction, I'm just taking what is available in the area, preferring local units. This is what my Arverni army looks in my current campaign (no reforms):

1x General
2x Leuce Epos
1x Liguriae Epos
3x Iaosatae
1x Gaesatae
3x Botroas
1x Bataroas (fighting in Cisalpine Gaul, these are being faced out)
3x Gaeroas
1x Kluddacorii
2x Caturiges Gaedann
1x Noricene Gaecori
1x Mori Gaesum

I wouldn't say it's the "best army composition", but it's the result of how I play as an Arverni warchief. That's also why I haven't said anything earlier in this thread.

[||Lz3||]

um... interesting... I'm going to sticky this thread...

veeeery good ideas so far

Che! here you have your manula!