Some great things China has done to Tibet

[KarlXII]

http://www.tibet.net/en/diir/pubs/wp...ng%20Truth.pdf

PDF above.

http://www.phayul.com/news/article.aspx?id=18451&article=Dalai+Lama+accuses+China+of+'demographic+aggression'&t=1&c=1

http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/china-9...t-test0613.htm

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/as...0092002en.html

http://www.tibet.com/humanrights/hratglance.html

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Asi...ific/EM177.cfm

According to the Heritage Foundation:

If the matter of Tibet's sovereignty is murky, the question about the PRC's treatment of Tibetans is all too clear. After invading Tibet in 1950, the Chinese communists killed over one million Tibetans, destroyed over 6,000 monasteries, and turned Tibet's northeastern province, Amdo, into a gulag housing, by one estimate, up to ten million people. A quarter of a million Chinese troops remain stationed in Tibet. In addition, some 7.5 million Chinese have responded to Beijing's incentives to relocate to Tibet; they now outnumber the 6 million Tibetans. Through what has been termed Chinese apartheid, ethnic Tibetans now have a lower life expectancy, literacy rate, and per capita income than Chinese inhabitants of Tibet

Though I'm glad good China has brung civilization to the backwards, war mongering monks of Tibet

[DemonArchangel]

Whoa, hold on there. Think about what you're trying to say. Amdo, one of the most desolate, harsh and painfully bleak places on earth, cannot *possibly* hold 10 million people in Gulags, especially since there's simply not enough water to keep those people alive, and all food would have to be trucked in (due to a lack of rail lines). The Chinese government probably keeps no one in Amdo.

Xinjiang and Manchuria are far better locations.

As for the rest of those articles. I don't dispute their contents. Although if Tibet really wants its independence, everything China built in the province must be systematically dismantled first. Roads, rails, bridges, electrical infrastructure, water treatment facilities, schools, businesses, everything will have to go. I want to see how the Tibetans will react to that.

[LittleGrizzly]

Although if Tibet really wants its independence, everything China built in the province must be systematically dismantled first. Roads, rails, bridges, electrical infrastructure, water treatment facilities, schools, businesses, everything will have to go. I want to see how the Tibetans will react to that.

From the sounds of it, it is the native chinese who mostly benefit from these facilities, im sure they would trade some luxurys for thier freedom.

This doesn't quite seem in the spirit of what Banquo said when he closed the other topic...

[DemonArchangel]

Although if Tibet really wants its independence, everything China built in the province must be systematically dismantled first. Roads, rails, bridges, electrical infrastructure, water treatment facilities, schools, businesses, everything will have to go. I want to see how the Tibetans will react to that.

From the sounds of it, it is the native chinese who mostly benefit from these facilities, im sure they would trade some luxurys for thier freedom.

This doesn't quite seem in the spirit of what Banquo said when he closed the other topic...

I know, the Chinese do benefit from the facilities, but if the Tibetans want their own nation, their first step will obviously have to be to stop using Chinese things, especially roads, water and electricity. If they're so bent on independence, they can develop those things themselves.

[KarlXII]

I know, the Chinese do benefit from the facilities, but if the Tibetans want their own nation, their first step will obviously have to be to stop using Chinese things, especially roads, water and electricity. If they're so bent on independence, they can develop those things themselves.

So you're saying China should deindustrialize a region who's native population already has a low life expectancy, GPA, and such?

You think China may want to be, I don't know, humane, and leave something for the Tibetans to work with?

[DemonArchangel]

So you're saying China should deindustrialize a region who's native population already has a low life expectancy, GPA, and such?

You think China may want to be, I don't know, humane, and leave something for the Tibetans to work with?

Nope. If they want independence, then the Chinese take what is theirs, and then go, leaving the Tibetans as free as they wish to be.

[Adrian II]

[..] if the Tibetans want their own nation, their first step will obviously have to be to stop using Chinese things, especially roads, water and electricity.

Maybe the Tibetens could strike a deal with Beijing: every truly 'Chinese' thing would be dismantled, and in exchange Beijing promises to restitute all stolen land, stolen income, stolen profits, destroyed monasteries, unnecessary deaths and of course all lost foreign investment and foregone benefits from tourism. How does that sound?

Can't we have a serious debate about this? In another thread you expressed mild disappointment that Beijing had not killed all Tibetans instead of only a few million. Now you want to break down the entire infrastructure in Tibet as 'punishment'. Punishment for what, I asked myself as I read those lines.

Could it be that you are so vindictive about Tibet because it is the single most unnecessary mistake Beijing made in the last fifty years? Because this mistake is now the worst pr nightmare for the regime, following every Chinese official wherever he goes in the entire world? At least that would make your attitude psychologically understandable to me. Otherwise we would have to explain your spiteful, disdainful attitude to a downtrodden, half-extinct nation from sheer Chinese racism.

Or is there a third explanation?

[DemonArchangel]

Maybe the Tibetens could strike a deal with Beijing: every truly 'Chinese' thing would be dismantled, and in exchange Beijing promises to restitute all stolen land, stolen income, stolen profits, destroyed monasteries, unnecessary deaths and of course all lost foreign investment and foregone benefits from tourism. How does that sound?

Can't we have a serious debate about this? In another thread you expressed mild disappointment that Beijing had not killed all Tibetans instead of only a few million. Now you want to break down the entire infrastructure in Tibet as 'punishment'. Punishment for what, I asked myself as I read those lines.

Could it be that you are so vindictive about Tibet because it is the single most unnecessary mistake Beijing made in the last fifty years? Because this mistake is now the worst pr nightmare for the regime, following every Chinese official wherever he goes in the entire world? At least that would make your attitude psychologically understandable to me. Otherwise we would have to explain your spiteful, disdainful attitude to a downtrodden, half-extinct nation from sheer Chinese racism.

Or is there a third explanation?

Your first proposition sounds entirely acceptable.

However, you're jumping to conclusions about the whole punishment part. If Tibet wants to be free, it can be free without any of China's assistance. China has poured a lot of money into a rather unproductive section of the world, with full knowledge that it won't get any return on its investment, so if the Tibetans don't want anything to do with China, then China shouldn't have anything to do with Tibet.

And yes you pretty much hit the nail on the head. Tibet has been...to put it politely, a of unimaginable proportions. However, these days, keeping Tibet is pretty much a matter of Chinese national pride, as pigheaded as it is, and especially with all the money that's gone into it and will never come back out. And I unfortunately, am in a position where I am the only voice representing the other side on this forum. It's painful and detestable, but I must argue for the Chinese regime, if only because there is no one else here to do so.

[PanzerJaeger]

Communism is a plague wherever it manifests. I'm proud my grandfather and other family members were involved in trying to destroy it for good. Its only too bad that they failed...

[DemonArchangel]

That's right. Communism is a plague, which is why China is no longer communist. Fascism is a plague wherever it manifests as well, but it doesn't seem to deter you, does it?

[KarlXII]

Communism is a plague wherever it manifests. I'm proud my grandfather and other family members were involved in trying to destroy it for good. Its only too bad that they failed...

Please, Communism has been horribly twisted by the dictators and mass murderers we associate the Ideology with. I'm glad my grandfather fought the Soviets, however, they were Communist in name only, really.

Ideologies cannot kill, people who twist them do.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Please, Communism has been horribly twisted by the dictators and mass murderers we associate the Ideology with. I'm glad my grandfather fought the Soviets, however, they were Communist in name only, really.

That's because communism in theory, when put in practice, inevitably screws up somehow. Every single communist country in the world, and here's a list of current or former ones:

Cuba
Soviet Russia (+ Eastern Bloc)
Cambodia
Vietnam
China
Ethiopia
Laos

I know I'm missing a few, but think about this - is there any one of those communist countries that was never guilty of mass murder and/or imprisonment? Stalinism, Maoism, Marxism-Leninism...these are all forms of communism, all of which have led to the deaths of millions.

[LittleGrizzly]

That's because communism in theory, when put in practice, inevitably screws up somehow.

Yes, a small chance perhaps that those in power after the revolution got greedy and rather than being communists they were greedy/power hungy ?

I really don't think the cold war helped either, look what happened to various developing capitalist countries that got interfered with at the time, chile and pinochet being a prime example...

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Yes, a small chance perhaps that those in power after the revolution got greedy and rather than being communists they were greedy/power hungy ?

Which happens to be one of the key flaws of communism. Anyways, Marxism-Leninism, Stalinism, and Maoism are, as I've said before, all forms of communism.

[HoreTore]

I know I'm missing a few, but think about this - is there any one of those communist countries that was never guilty of mass murder and/or imprisonment? Stalinism, Maoism, Marxism-Leninism...these are all forms of communism, all of which have led to the deaths of millions.

Show me a country that isn't guilty of mass murder/imprisonment.

[KarlXII]

That's because communism in theory, when put in practice, inevitably screws up somehow. Every single communist country in the world, and here's a list of current or former ones:

Cuba
Soviet Russia (+ Eastern Bloc)
Cambodia
Vietnam
China
Ethiopia
Laos

I know I'm missing a few, but think about this - is there any one of those communist countries that was never guilty of mass murder and/or imprisonment? Stalinism, Maoism, Marxism-Leninism...these are all forms of communism, all of which have led to the deaths of millions.

All forms of government have killed. What's your point?

[rvg]

All forms of government have killed. What's your point?

The point is that Communism in addition to killing millions of people has a strong propensity towards killing the economy of the affected state, which in turn leads to the demise of the communist system in the affected state. It's is similar in many ways to an infectious disease.

[PanzerJaeger]

Please, Communism has been horribly twisted by the dictators and mass murderers we associate the Ideology with. I'm glad my grandfather fought the Soviets, however, they were Communist in name only, really.

The whole "The Soviets weren't real communists!" meme is exhausting in its repitition and complete in its falsehood.

[LittleGrizzly]

The whole "The Soviets weren't real communists!" meme is exhausting in its repitition and complete in its falsehood.

take the n't out of this sentence, add and annoying to the end as well...

Which happens to be one of the key flaws of communism.

Which happens to be the flaw of any system not use democratic checks and balances, and well i would say democracys have that problem as well


That's because communism in theory, when put in practice, inevitably screws up somehow. Every single communist country in the world, and here's a list of current or former ones:

Cuba
Soviet Russia (+ Eastern Bloc)
Cambodia
Vietnam
China
Ethiopia
Laos

Those countries were all going to end up badly off anyway, for most of them just look at nearby nieghbours that choose different systems and still managed to end up badly off, you could sit here all day listing monarchies and capitalist countrys that failed or were vicious in various ways but i doubt that would convince you of the uselessness of monarchies or capitalism..

[rvg]

The whole "The Soviets weren't real communists!" meme is exhausting in its repitition and complete in its falsehood.

Indeed. Any ideology or religion is only as good as its followers.

[Devastatin Dave]

Some great things China has done to Tibet? Hmmmm, oh they have brought them population control!!!

[HoreTore]

The whole "The Soviets weren't real communists!" meme is exhausting in its repitition and complete in its falsehood.

They were one form of socialism. That one failed does not mean that others(like social democracy) is a failure. Look at europe for proof of that.

[rvg]

They were one form of socialism. That one failed does not mean that others(like social democracy) is a failure. Look at europe for proof of that.

Communism has failed in its every incarnation. At least so far. Not having high hopes for Nepal's future either, if maoists are indeed allowed to fully implement their plans.

[Adrian II]

They were one form of socialism. That one failed does not mean that others(like social democracy) is a failure. Look at europe for proof of that.

Don't confuse socialism with communism, come on. Communism is the 'dictatorship of the proletariat' carried out by a one-party state. This has nothing to do with the advocacy of social justice through democratic means.

[PanzerJaeger]

They were one form of socialism. That one failed does not mean that others(like social democracy) is a failure. Look at europe for proof of that.

I don't disagree. Even the most extreme forms of European socialism cannot be confused with what was attempted in Russia, though.

Most people do not know much about the internal workings of the USSR. People sympathetic to the left seem to have convinced themselves and much of the general population that Russia was simply a dictatorship operating under the guise of communism, thus washing their hands of the undesirable outcome. "If only they were real communists, things would have been so much better." However, the USSR made vast efforts to conform to Marxist theory in all levels of society, eventually leading to its downfall. Stalin, apart from being a cold hearted bastard with a penchant for genocide, was also a devoted communist - and so were those that followed him. I could go on about collectivization, class destruction, elimination of private holdings, state owned industry, etc... but all of that can be condensed into a simple examination of the vast amount of time and energy spent on trying to ensure every house in the Soviet Union was exactly the same size. (Party members excluded of course.. )

A simple comparison of gross domestic product clearly demonstrates that the USSR was very much a communist nation… to a fault. After WW2, Russia and America had roughly the same population, vast resources, and huge industrial bases. Granted, Russia had some serious rebuilding to do after the war, so they started off at a disadvantage. However, even into the 60s, 70s, and 80s, the Russian GDP was not even 10% of that of America… or even Germany, and began to fall long before the state did. This can be directly attributed to staunch communist ideology and principles applied to the economy.

As can be seen in China, when a communist nation begins to abandon communist ideology – prosperity ensues.

Year US *******Russia
1969 3795.076 216.3361
1970 3803.296 223.0269
1971 3912.682 229.9247
1972 4129.993 237.0358
1973 4373.621 244.3668
1974 4349.16 251.9245
1975 4334.417 259.716
1976 4578.701 267.7484
1977 4793.936 276.0293
1978 5061.152 284.5663
1979 5223.534 293.3673
1980 5210.976 302.4405
1981 5338.742 311.7944
1982 5228.449 321.4375
1983 5455.041 331.3789
1984 5852.097 341.6277
1985 6075.413 352.1935
1986 6280.384 363.0861
1987 6491.47 374.3155
1988 6761.525 385.8923
1989 6998.383 397.8271
1990 7120.47 385.8923
1991 7085.089 366.4166


http://www.swivel.com/data_columns/show/2085375

[KarlXII]

Communism is a plague wherever it manifests. I'm proud my grandfather and other family members were involved in trying to destroy it for good. Its only too bad that they failed...

It'd be easy for me to find numerous sources that show the deaths, inderect and direct, that radical right wing, right wing, and capitalist governments have killed.

I'm glad my grandfathers helped fight the Communist Soviet Union and Fascist Nazi Germany.

[KarlXII]

and I refuse to apologize for my cruel and fascist views

I think we can end the thread here, guys.

[Adrian II]

I think we can end the thread here, guys.

Well yeah. QED, so to speak.

But the fact that China is evolving into a Fascist state merits some more debate. See you guys in another thread. :wave:

[JR-]

But the fact that China is evolving into a Fascist state merits some more debate. See you guys in another thread. :wave:

that would be an interesting thread, with all kinds of lurid comparisons to other empires and their versions of colonialism. someone should start it now.................

[Louis VI the Fat]

It'd be easy for me to find numerous sources that show the deaths, inderect and direct, that radical right wing, right wing, and capitalist governments have killed.

I'm glad my grandfathers helped fight the Communist Soviet Union and Fascist Nazi Germany.

Hey, I didn't know you had non-Swedish ancestors too...

and I refuse to apologize for my cruel and fascist views

I think that maybe you are so determined to save face and 'defend' your country and family's honour that you allowed yourself to be driven into a corner, from which then your only way out was to lash out with wild counter-accusations and fascist tough talk.