Poll: Should the Augustan Reforms be removed?

[Remco]

Should the Augustan Reforms be removed?

[Zett]

i think they are more or less useless, cause the Marian Reforms give you everything, what you need for a great empire, the praetorian units are only recruitable in rome and at the time you get the Augustan Reforms your empire is so big that the transport of the praetorian units would take you several seasons till you get them to the outer regions of your empire. in my opinion these slots should used for some other units, pherhaps some new units for KH, like special hoplites for athenai or something like that

[CountArach]

No they should not be removed. If my Consul overthrows the Republic and becomes Emperor I want him to be able to push the Marian reforms through that necessary stage to further professionalise and Centralise the army. They are necessary in order for me to do that.

[Quilts]

Yes, they should be removed. Any decent Senator with a mind to the Republic would do his utmost to avoid that much power falling into the hands of one person.

The selfishly motivated civil war/s that led to such desperate measures being necessary may not have occured had 'good men done something' when it was needed ie- about the time they were forming the first triumvirate.....maybe.....

Cheers,

Quilts

[eddy_purpus]

i think they are more or less useless, cause the Marian Reforms give you everything, what you need for a great empire, the praetorian units are only recruitable in rome and at the time you get the Augustan Reforms your empire is so big that the transport of the praetorian units would take you several seasons till you get them to the outer regions of your empire. in my opinion these slots should used for some other units, pherhaps some new units for KH, like special hoplites for athenai or something like that

i agree with ur post put not all units should go to KH .
some to other new factions ...
lets wait for the new factions to come and then decide.

[delra]

Out with them.

[Flying Pig]

At least, if no new units, make a governmental reform with the imperator trait, and amici imperatore, Caesares, Augusti and all thee other post-imerial jobs

[||Lz3||]

maybe if the time restriction is taken out it will be easier to atain them ... cause many of us have gotten perfect candidates for augustans but we are missing several -a lot - of years to get them and before it's time, our augustus is dead <.<

[Atraphoenix]

if EB team really claim that they are following historical accuracy no they should not be....
but the reforms may be easier to get for example holding 45 province may trigger Marian reforms while holding 80 or 90 provinces directly opens the way of augustan reforms.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Honestly, the game gets unhistorical by 200 B.C. so I figure the game should just be cut to 27 B.C. and the imperial reforms and units removed. Its dissapointing to hear that some units could not be added due to unit limit and here is the "imperial units" which were only historically used for the last 31 years of the game. So basically, make the end 27 B.C. get rid of the imperial units and i am sure everyone will enjoy the units that fill those spots, whatever faction they may be.

Also, for the imperiator trait, could that be part of the victory requirements? Like "have all these settlements, and a faction leader with imperiator"?

[General Appo]

No, some people don´t want an Imperator. Or at least, the choice not go get one exists right now, I don´t see why we should remove it.

[Cartaphilus]

One vote for removing the reform.

I have only achieved the augustan reform cheating the game.
And if you don't make the game last longer without cheating the reform is almost useless.

[cybermage83]

If i recall, units after reform get stronger than before. So if we are to remove this reform all together, does this mean we get reformed units rightaway or do we just stuck with units before the reform and not get the new ones. Resoning behind this is: If we get reformed units right away that might give an advantage to Roman AI if i were to play some neighboor nation. so how exactrly are they planing on doing this?

[a completely inoffensive name]

If i recall, units after reform get stronger than before. So if we are to remove this reform all together, does this mean we get reformed units rightaway or do we just stuck with units before the reform and not get the new ones. Resoning behind this is: If we get reformed units right away that might give an advantage to Roman AI if i were to play some neighboor nation. so how exactrly are they planing on doing this?

The question about if the Augustan reforms being removed is not on the opinion that the reform itself is not needed, but if the Augustan units should be kept, especially with 10 new factions filling up unit spots. The point is we can either keep it all or remove it all, theres no point to remove just the units, or just the reform, or just the traits.

[Foot]

so how exactrly are they planing on doing this?

I want to make this absolutely clear. This thread is entirely speculation from fans and there is no official position from the team on this. Do not confuse lots of posts with what will occur in EBII.

Foot

[Zenith Darksea]

I agree with what other people have said about the units being put to better use among other factions. It's true that very few people ever get to the Augustan era in EB anyway, and the only significant changes are aesthetic.

Moreover however, I think that I should point out that very few people even get near 100 BC, let alone 14 AD. Most people (from what I can tell from reading TWC and the Org), including myself, achieve their victory conditions by about 150 BC at the latest, unless they are deliberately playing slowly. And if the player doesn't achieve victory by then, one of the AI factions frequently gets near it. Consequently, my advice to the EB team would be that you should concentrate your attention on the 3rd and 2nd centuries BC, and forget about reforms that might occur in the 1st century BC or AD. You should try your hardest to immerse us in this mid-Hellenistic world; by the time that the player arrives in the Augustan era anyway history will have changed so much that pre-determined reforms may well be quite inappropriate.

In summary, put your resources into depicting the 3rd/2nd cent. BC.

[a completely inoffensive name]

I want to make this absolutely clear. This thread is entirely speculation from fans and there is no official position from the team on this. Do not confuse lots of posts with what will occur in EBII.

Foot

Seriously Foot, is this poll even making an impact on the decision of the EB team? Because if they feel that removing the Augustian Reforms would be unhistorical, then I see little reason why they would remove it, even if the fans are 54% to 36% in favor of removing the reforms for more troop variety in the ten new factions.

[Atilius]

... is this poll even making an impact on the decision of the EB team?

It's useful for us to know what EB players think, but often a decision on an issue depends on considerations that only the development team is aware of. That means these discussions often completely miss the point.

[Aemilius Paulus]

If i recall, units after reform get stronger than before. So if we are to remove this reform all together, does this mean we get reformed units rightaway or do we just stuck with units before the reform and not get the new ones. Resoning behind this is: If we get reformed units right away that might give an advantage to Roman AI if i were to play some neighboor nation. so how exactrly are they planing on doing this?

Huh? I was under the impression that the Camillian units are the best. By now in my Romani campaign, I only 5 territories away from the victory conditions (and I have many more territories that aren't required for a victory) and I am still playing wit Camillian units. Roman units simply don't get much better than the early Triarii (Antesignani are better, but also fewer and more expensive), Pedites Extraordinarii or Accensi! Also, aren't the Marian and Imperial legionary cohort stats pretty much the same? 11 attack, 22 defence vs 11 attack and 22 defence.

[satalexton]

polybian units have a higher leathality with the gladius. But marian legions are nothing more than lots of hastati, thats y i loath the marian reform D=

[Foot]

No, the marian legionnaires are actually a load of polybian principes. They certainly aren't hastati.

If it has the same unit name then it is the same unit, regardless of what shield design it has. Each unit is assigned a model and each model as 22 different texture paths (each faction, slave and merc).

Foot

[||Lz3||]

I think I remember reading that statwise the marian legionaries are the same as polybian hastatii , and that they are inferior to polybian princeps one vs one... but they overcome this problem by being more of them in a same unit (160 princeps/ 200 legionaries)

[Cybvep]

Actually, the differences between the units in the Roman Army are rather small. Generally, EB unit stat system is good, although completely not designed to work properly with experience bonuses, but in this case there are some things which just don't seem right.

Let's just analyze two essential units in Polybian army - hastati and principes. Principes have 3 armor points more (+), tire quickier (heat 5 vs 3) and are worse in forests (-2 vs -1 penalty... It hardly means anything, but anyway...). They are also "highly_trained", while hastati are "trained", which means that princeps have a little better formation. However, there are no changes to discipline (both are "disciplined") or morale (both have 13). There are no changes to attack or lethality (11 and 0.13), either. Also, cost is almost the same (1185 vs 1066). Some of those things are strange. Principes are supposed to be experienced soldiers, while hastati should be young and unexperienced. It's not very evident in their stats.

Cohortes Reformata are more or less fine, mostly because they have more men in the unit (200 vs 160). It's quite a difference, which makes lack of significant changes in other stats (attack, lethality) and worse armor (12 vs 10) "not that hard" to swallow. There is also a small morale bonus (+1), which is always nice. However, they cost much more (1790 vs 1185) and you could argue that principes are more cost efficient.

Hopefully, the situation will improve in EB2.

[mikil100]

Heres a thought. Remove the units and the new reform, and at the reform date add an ability to upgrade armor further, Idk if it can upgrade shields ect.. Obviously you won't be able to get Praetorians, or anything like that but you will be able to have new legionaries... small but a little change.

[Megas Methuselah]

They'll still have the same unit description, though. Just drop the Augustan units.

[Ludens]

Heres a thought. Remove the units and the new reform, and at the reform date add an ability to upgrade armor further, Idk if it can upgrade shields ect.. Obviously you won't be able to get Praetorians, or anything like that but you will be able to have new legionaries... small but a little change.

Since Augustean legionaries are equipped identically to Marian ones, I don't see how one could justify the upgrade. And no, they won't get Lorica Segmentata. Read the FAQ and use the search function if you want to know why.

[AymericNikator]

As for as I am concerned, I'd like to still see the imperial reforms, but a few unit could remain the same, like the legionnari. And what about an amour upgrade, could'nt it keep a unit for someone else -and I'm not talking about segmentata, but rather a new helmet, a more "gallic one" instead of the old montefortino-?
Nevertheless, it's up to the EB team to decide and I will respect their descision.

[Boyar Son]

have any EBk member commented on this ?

[Mulceber]

What about a partial reform? There's no real point in replacing the cohors reformata with cohors imperatoria because they're extremely similar. Ditto to the Ala Imperatoria - they're basically just like the regional light cavalry of the Marian era.

But what about changing the reforms so that when the player reaches the Augustan era, they get 1 type of cohors validium auxiliarium, the cohors sagitariorum levantinorum and the cohors praetoriana? That way the Augustan reforms could still be represented (and as someone who HAS reached the Augustan reforms, I can tell you they are worth it), but some unit slots could be freed up for other factions. By my calculations, if we do what I suggested, we would save five slots - by getting rid of the cohors imperatoria, prima cohors imperatoria, equites praetoriani, the ala imperatoria and one of the two cohors validium auxiliarium.

I know a lot of people think the Praetorians are useless, since by the time you get them you control about half the known world, but they're very nice from a roll-playing perspective, allowing you to create the Emperor's personal bodyguard. -M

[Fluvius Camillus]

Keep it! I like the shift from republic to Principate. Also not only the praetorians are new, what about the new auxiliarries, archers and imperial cavalry wings.