Poll: Should the Augustan Reforms be removed?

[mikil100]

I think they should DEFINITLY be removed, no doubt. Just think, if there are going to be many new factions, we will NEED these spots, especially if we don't want to get rid of units that are used from the beginning of the game, that form the core of armies.

[Shadowwalker]

Although I like playing SPQR very much I'd like to see the last reform removed.
EB is not about Romans alone and I rather have ten new factions presented adequate in terms of units then having a reform I never reach without cheating.

Would recommend to have a reform event if that pleases someone, also it would be okay in my opinion to stick one or two of the aux. cavalry units to the reform. The archers and the spear infantry auxilia (forgot the name since I never had them due to not reaching the reform) I would like to have but not at the cost of losing a highly necessary unit for one of the new factions.

*votes for removal*

EDIT:

posted by a completely inoffensive name:
Honestly, the game gets unhistorical by 200 B.C. so I figure the game should just be cut to 27 B.C. and the imperial reforms and units removed. Its dissapointing to hear that some units could not be added due to unit limit and here is the "imperial units" which were only historically used for the last 31 years of the game. So basically, make the end 27 B.C. get rid of the imperial units and i am sure everyone will enjoy the units that fill those spots, whatever faction they may be.

Totally agree, to say it the sarcastic way:
Where's the difference between LS and Augustan Units?

[Havok.]

Remove them, as others said, the game becomes (due to our dumb, stupid friend...mister AI) ahistorical, though i like the concept of Augustan reforms, i particulary find them uberly useless when there is just three or four factions that controls the map, its just too RAMBO for me.

And furthermore, if they are to be removed, i think the additional units available should be given mostly to Koinon Hellenon, Saba, and the other new factions, aiming for unique units.

This would certainly be awesome, but, is nothing more than a idea yet.

Thanks.

[a completely inoffensive name]

In a couple days this thread will be 6 months old, I'm glad this has stuck around so long. This is actually one of the more interesting and important (to me at least) threads in the EB2 forums. I hope in another six months this will still be here and maybe we can get some insight on what the EB team decides to do.

[Remco]

In a couple days this thread will be 6 months old, I'm glad this has stuck around so long. This is actually one of the more interesting and important (to me at least) threads in the EB2 forums. I hope in another six months this will still be here and maybe we can get some insight on what the EB team decides to do.

That's why I started it. It's good to see how the EB-players feel about removing the last Roman reforms. The fact that they are divided hints that the team could be divided as well.

Given that the reforms took place at the end of the timeframe, more then 200 years from the start, they could be removed on the ground that it was not inevitible. Only time time will tell what the team decides.

[mikil100]

For everyone whos saying the game goes extremely ahistorical, just remember your forging your own history, not re-enacting it. I think a completely inoffensive name's points are very valid, though.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Well it has been over 8 months since this thread was started and over two months since the last post has been made. Normally I would have waited another 2-4 months to post in here again, but the previews and work in progress shown over the last two month toward unit models and overall completion including the awesome February Preview has made me bring up the thread for another quick pop in to ask if further discussion on the subject had been made. Not asking if an absolute decision has been made, just if at this stage you have a rough outline of what the future of the Augustan units will be. Either way, I assume once this thread has been brought back to the front page, we will have another round of great discussion with the added bonus of what knowledge we have picked up from the EB team along the last two months for greater and more intelligent arguments.

-ACIN

[Atilius]

EB members haven't devoted a word of discussion to Augustan reforms since this thread was started. I would not expect that to change before we've released a beta, and I wouldn't be utterly surprised if we went ahead and did new Augustan units without the subject ever coming up. There is no reason at all for us to even think about this for quite some time yet.

[satalexton]

don't you guys have a tighter unit slot allocation with those new factions popping up?

[Atilius]

don't you guys have a tighter unit slot allocation with those new factions popping up?

We have the same number of unit slots and more factions. But there are a lot of ways to deal with that. We have already removed some units, and we currently have open slots. In addition, a number existing EB1 units (including regionals) will be used by the new factions.

If we run out of unit slots the Augustan reforms may come under scrutiny. That won't happen any time soon.

[Mulceber]

What about a partial reform? There's no real point in replacing the cohors reformata with cohors imperatoria because they're extremely similar. Ditto to the Ala Imperatoria - they're basically just like the regional light cavalry of the Marian era.

But what about changing the reforms so that when the player reaches the Augustan era, they get 1 type of cohors validium auxiliarium, the cohors sagitariorum levantinorum and the cohors praetoriana? That way the Augustan reforms could still be represented (and as someone who HAS reached the Augustan reforms, I can tell you they are worth it), but some unit slots could be freed up for other factions. By my calculations, if we do what I suggested, we would save five slots - by getting rid of the cohors imperatoria, prima cohors imperatoria, equites praetoriani, the ala imperatoria and one of the two cohors validium auxiliarium.

I know a lot of people think the Praetorians are useless, since by the time you get them you control about half the known world, but they're very nice from a roll-playing perspective, allowing you to create the Emperor's personal bodyguard. -M

[Megas Methuselah]

We have the same number of unit slots and more factions. But there are a lot of ways to deal with that. We have already removed some units, and we currently have open slots. In addition, a number existing EB1 units (including regionals) will be used by the new factions.

If we run out of unit slots the Augustan reforms may come under scrutiny. That won't happen any time soon.

Oh, I hope the Celto-Hellenic Hoplites are still in-game as factional units. They were the best.

[a completely inoffensive name]

We have the same number of unit slots and more factions. But there are a lot of ways to deal with that. We have already removed some units, and we currently have open slots. In addition, a number existing EB1 units (including regionals) will be used by the new factions.

If we run out of unit slots the Augustan reforms may come under scrutiny. That won't happen any time soon.

Alright I guess this might as well be retired for at least another 6 months, or until a beta comes out although I am not sure if that will be a year or two away.

[Megas Methuselah]

Alright I guess this might as well be retired for at least another 6 months, or until a beta comes out although I am not sure if that will be a year or two away.

Well, we have ETW to mildly amuse us until EB2 comes out and brings down teh house.

[Alsatia]

Well, we have ETW to mildly amuse us until EB2 comes out and brings down teh house.

ETW may blow up my computer... So I only got a pack of cards() to entertain me until a get a new comuter for EB2.

[keravnos]

We have the same number of unit slots and more factions. But there are a lot of ways to deal with that. We have already removed some units, and we currently have open slots. In addition, a number existing EB1 units (including regionals) will be used by the new factions.

If we run out of unit slots the Augustan reforms may come under scrutiny. That won't happen any time soon.

To my mind there is NO WAY we could have an EB II without the Imperial reforms. There. I said it.
The only thing I would like, is to see them take place earlier than they are now. Because Post Marius reforms (which too should be pushed back even earlier), I think that anyone could be Octavius with the right set of circumstances. The transition from Republic->Imperium was historically one of the major points of history at that time. In fact, it was the ONLY point of history which happened around Med. at that time. While it is true that any empire forged past 272 BCE is ahistorical, that doesn't mean we don't need an "anchor point" if you will, to show how things evolved THAT WE KNOW OF, THAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED AS TOLD.

Simple as that, really.

[Megas Methuselah]

To my mind there is NO WAY we could have an EB II without the Imperial reforms. There. I said it.
The only thing I would like, is to see them take place earlier than they are now. Because Post Marius reforms (which too should be pushed back even earlier), I think that anyone could be Octavius with the right set of circumstances. The transition from Republic->Imperium was historically one of the major points of history at that time. In fact, it was the ONLY point of history which happened around Med. at that time. While it is true that any empire forged past 272 BCE is ahistorical, that doesn't mean we don't need an "anchor point" if you will, to show how things evolved THAT WE KNOW OF, THAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED AS TOLD.

Simple as that, really.

Eurgh!!!

*reaches around to feel an invisible knife in his back*

Et tu, Brute?

[bobbin]

We have already removed some units

I'm guessing that means the Dosidataskeli, Ordmalica and Dubosaverlacica are finally gone, shame

[Megas Methuselah]

I'm guessing that means the Dosidataskeli, Ordmalica and Dubosaverlacica are finally gone, shame

And finally, I am of the opinion that the Celto-Hellenic Hoplites ought to be preserved.

[geala]

In my opinion they should definitely get rid of the Augustan reforms, as far as new units are concerned. It's too late and too short. It should however be possible to become princeps. So a kind of political reform should be kept. The military reforms would be very nice to have but in a fair balance I would give the slots to the new factions before I would cancel even one unit of another faction.

A growing problem is also the notorious "lorica segmentata". I find it a bit problematic to have an Augustan military reform for just a few years and not the new armour for the reformed troops. The finds for "lorica segmentata" at Kalkriese-Niewedde show that the armour was used by the Augustan legionaries with a certain degree. It is reasonable not to implement an armour that was only used in the last years of the EB timeframe. But then why have a military reform for only the last years of the timeframe?

Edit: some typos

[lenin96]

Maybe the requirements should be lessened.

[Alsatia]

In my opinion they should definitely get rid of the Augustean reforms, as far as new units are concerned. It's too late and too short. It should however be possible to become princeps. So a kind of political reform should be kept. The military reforms would be very nice to have but in a fair balance I would give the slots to the new factions before I would cancel even one unit of another faction.

A growing problem is also the notorious "lorica segmentata". I find it a bit problematic to have an Augustean military reform for just a few years and not the new armour for the reformed troops. The finds for "lorica segmentata" at Kalkriese-Niewedder show that the armour was used by the Augustean legionaries with a certain degree. It is reasonable not to implement an armour that was only used in the last years of the EB timeframe. But then why have a military reform for only the last years of the timeframe?

They could be removed but as said above, what is the point of a reform when you cannot enjoy it?
Btw, I never had an Augustan Reform before so I really am neutral to the issue.

[Mulceber]

In my opinion they should definitely get rid of the Augustean reforms, as far as new units are concerned. It's too late and too short. It should however be possible to become princeps. So a kind of political reform should be kept. The military reforms would be very nice to have but in a fair balance I would give the slots to the new factions before I would cancel even one unit of another faction.

A growing problem is also the notorious "lorica segmentata". I find it a bit problematic to have an Augustean military reform for just a few years and not the new armour for the reformed troops. The finds for "lorica segmentata" at Kalkriese-Niewedder show that the armour was used by the Augustean legionaries with a certain degree. It is reasonable not to implement an armour that was only used in the last years of the EB timeframe. But then why have a military reform for only the last years of the timeframe?

LS was used by SOME of the Augustan legionaries. That implies somewhere around maybe a quarter? If that's the case, do you think that it's really worth representing in EB1 where all the members of a unit have the same armor? I don't. In EB2, now that they have the features of the M2 system, I'd say sure, have one of the armor types be LS, so I don't really see what you're complaining about.

I agree that perhaps the Augustan reforms should be made a little earlier, but I still think they should continue to exist. It was very fun to create the new units and Role-Play the changes undergoing the state as it converted to an Empire. The new troops were a visible manifestation of those changes, and to that end they were imho, extremely worthwhile. You're saying that they should be removed to make room for new troops, but according to the modders, they probably won't need the room as they've got enough as it is.

Thus, I think not only should the Augustan era troops stay, but we should try to find new ways of representing the transition from Republic to Empire as well - not new troops, but some scripted things to represent the changes. I noticed in my game that the number of Family Members greatly increased after the Augustan reforms, so I could see that as a manifestation of Augustus' marriage legislation, but it would be nice to get more things scripted in to help people Role-Play the transformation. -M

[Belisarius II]

Nullus!I say they should stay in the game. It's kinda like a goal for me. Trying to make Rome into an empire is a nice achievement. Seeing that not many have gotten that far, getting the reforms makes you feel even better. You'll be happy! Hurray!

[Megas Methuselah]

You too, my son?

[geala]

LS was used by SOME of the Augustan legionaries. That implies somewhere around maybe a quarter? If that's the case, do you think that it's really worth representing in EB1 where all the members of a unit have the same armor? I don't. In EB2, now that they have the features of the M2 system, I'd say sure, have one of the armor types be LS, so I don't really see what you're complaining about.

... -M

I concur with what you said later, so I shortened the quote.

How do you know that only a quarter of the legionaries used "LS"? Is it an estimation that stems from the percentage of findings compared to LH and LSq? I don't think so but I would like to hear about it.

What we can say about "LS" with some reliability is that it was a new form of armour which was given to the legions during the Augustan period. At least I don't know about findings from an earlier time. It is tempting to connect it with the military reforms that the princeps made to get rid of the civil war armies and form a reliable long lasting professional force. So even if "LS" was not widely used in the beginning it was "the" Augustan new armour. If I would create an Augustan military reform in a game with partly an emphasis on the appearance of soldiers I would also feel obliged to create the "new" armour feature for this soldiers.

In EB II you could also have only a part of a unit wearing "LS". You said it. You see the problem? It's perfect for "LS". I'm not talking about EB, I'm talking about EB II. So I would remove the Augustan military reform from the game. Than you don't have the slots occupied and don't have any reason to implement "LS".

I have to admit that I'm a bit biased. I never played the Romans in EB and don't plan to play them in EB II. I want their slots for my favorite factions.

[Mulceber]

How do you know that only a quarter of the legionaries used "LS"? Is it an estimation that stems from the percentage of findings compared to LH and LSq? I don't think so but I would like to hear about it.

I don't know at all. You said that there was some LS in use during the Augustan period, so I was just surmising what we could estimate. If I gave the impression that that was a statistic, I'm sorry - I was just trying to convey the fact that even if LS was in use during that era, it was far from the norm.

As for me, I'm a die-hard Romani player. I play other factions as well (currently working on Qarthadastim and KH) and I'd like to try some of the hellenistic factions (AS looks enticing) when I have the time, but Romani are still my favorites. -M

[seienchin]

I am glad, the EB Team doenst plan to take them out. The Augustan Reforms made my Rome Game incredibly fun. It is unnecessary to get new legionairies with the same stats as the old ones...

[bobbin]

From the twitter page:

New faction's Elite cavalry unit skinned for the 3 evolution stages. Integrating now. - JMRC

Now this is all just a lot of speculating on my part but the fact that JMRC is making 3 sets of skins for one factional unit's "evolutionary stages" suggests to me that they might be using the armour upgrade feature in M2TW to represet equipment changes, it seems unlikley they would make three different versions of the same unit, which means they might do the same for the imperial cohorts, ie Marians would get an armour upgrade when the Imperial refoms happen changing them into Imperial Cohorts, no need to create a new unit.

I remember it was suggested ages ago somewhere in the forums but there was problems with armour upgrades apparantly give hardcoded stat value increases so they might have found a way around this.

[seienchin]

From the twitter page:

Now this is all just a lot of speculating on my part but the fact that JMRC is making 3 sets of skins for one factional unit's "evolutionary stages" suggests to me that they might be using the armour upgrade feature in M2TW to represet equipment changes, it seems unlikley they would make three different versions of the same unit, which means they might do the same for the imperial cohorts, ie Marians would get an armour upgrade when the Imperial refoms happen changing them into Imperial Cohorts, no need to create a new unit.

I remember it was suggested ages ago somewhere in the forums but there was problems with armour upgrades apparantly give hardcoded stat value increases so they might have found a way around this.

That would be toatally awesome. Thanks too Medievial 2