Poll: Should the Augustan Reforms be removed?

[General Appo]

But it´s a nice feature that doesn´t really detract from anything. If it doesn´t get in the way for anything else, is considered historically accurate and is indeed optional, then why the hell wouldn´t we have it?

[Gaivs]

IMO the camillan ones should be removed also.

[QuintusSertorius]

IMO the camillan ones should be removed also.

Not so sure about that. It's arguable that they might have still been around at the start of the game, and getting the Polybian reforms is something to work towards. Balance-wise, that would make the Romani game even easier than it already is.

[DeathEmperor]

I share Quintus' feelings regarding the Camillan era units. Using them for a good 30 years before the Polybian reforms gives you a 'feel' for the Roman way of war, and it's all the more satisfying when you reach the Polybian reforms and see how your army has evolved.

As for the Imperial units, in my 2+ years playing EB I've never once reached them. Maybe that's a weakness on my part, but I just never felt the drive to play so long to get new units that I'd be able to use for a short period of time (compared to other reform units) and with how the ai progresses there'd probably only 3 or 4 factions I could use them against.

[CountArach]

IMO the camillan ones should be removed also.

Definitely not. Everything was vastly different before the Polybian reforms and it is utterly necessary to show this.

[Aemilius Paulus]

If removing the Augustan reforms will give the Romans more new units, then I agree. The Romans may have tons of units, but I am in the opinion that During the Polybian and especially Marian eras there is simply not enough unit variety. I really hope EB II will give the Romans more units. During the Marian and Polybian era, the only missile unit are the Velites. Now I know the Romans did not think highly of missiles, but there is got to be a missile unit (slingers or archers) out there there that you could give to the Romans for a bit of game balance.

[Strategos Alexandros]

The Romans currently have more units than any other faction, and if you need archers/slingers there are always plenty of auxiliaries, so if the Imperial reforms were taken out (which IMHO they should be) the slots should be given to the ten new factions.

[Aper]

IMHO the option to have an "Augustus" should be mantained (just like you can be a "High King" or similar with other factions) but i think the reform is quite useless, for the reasons other people have already explained

[Aemilius Paulus]

The Romans currently have more units than any other faction, and if you need archers/slingers there are always plenty of auxiliaries, so if the Imperial reforms were taken out (which IMHO they should be) the slots should be given to the ten new factions.

The Romans are also the most popular faction. Are they not? That's probably why they were given so many units (along with the fact that there is more material about the Romans than any other nation of that time.

[satalexton]

not really, My fav faction's the Maks and I'm sure there's a whole bunch of fellow philhellens around, and we got lots of HA lovers and celts too

[Fondor_Yards]

I can fill my units with auxilia as any faction, I don't have to play Romani to do that. Regional units is my favorite feature in EB after the new campaign map as well as the improved & expanded traits system. Auxilia adds simply a gargantuan amount of variety to any EB game, but I would still like to have some Roman units. Regionals can be levied by any faction whereas Principes can only be recruited by the Romani.

As for the slinger unit, I am well aware of that. They are Accensi and they are great - but they're only trainable during the Camillian military era. Which is perfectly historical because I am almost 100% positive that no Roman slingers were found in the legions after the reforms of Gaius Marius. The only slingers in the Roman army were auxiliries of non-Italian background. However, I am not sure sure about the Polybian Era... I would really like to know if native slingers were still employed by the Romani after the Polybian reforms. If not, then I'll just have to go back to using Iaosatae and Mercenary Balearics, which is perfectly historical.

Yea, but from what I know*admittedly not as much as most here probably* of the roman armies of this time, there weren't really any other unit that could be added for them. Other then the Hastati, Principes, Triarii, equites, and the various levies, the only other thing in their armies was allies. And you can train accensi during Polybian times too*and according to konny, you should*.

The Romans are also the most popular faction. Are they not? That's probably why they were given so many units (along with the fact that there is more material about the Romans than any other nation of that time.

I certainly doubt that's the reason why, considering the team's goal is to raise historical knowledge/awareness of all factions equally.

[Celtic_Punk]

If the reforms have more than just units to them, then keep em, and drop the units. Those units hardly see any action and could be used in more useful spots. such as those 10 new factions!

[Olaf Blackeyes]

IMHO they should because all they really serve right now is an end-game gimmick to give the player lolz, IF they reach the 27BC timeframe. The only real way that these reforms can become useful is if the EB team does two things tothe game.
1. Make the timeframe longer. ie from 14AD to 100AD ect.
2. Make the map bigger and have more factions (India)

And since we know that niether of these will happen i say cut them and make it a trait.

[MerlinusCDXX]

I have an idea that I don't think has been mentioned yet, except by Olaf Blackeyes (as a series of traits). Keep the reform, but not with any new units. Possibly some recruitment discount traits would be in order (if the team thinks that standardization would warrant that), possibly expanded AoR for more existing units, possibly tied to a new building line (like some type of "Granted Roman citizenship" thing that will give AoR for Leg. Cohorts and native Roman type cavalry). And adding any other traits that the team thinks would go with an Imperial reform.

[Fondor_Yards]

If removing the Augustan reforms will give the Romans more new units, then I agree. The Romans may have tons of units, but I am in the opinion that During the Polybian and especially Marian eras there is simply not enough unit variety. I really hope EB II will give the Romans more units. During the Marian and Polybian era, the only missile unit are the Velites. Now I know the Romans did not think highly of missiles, but there is got to be a missile unit (slingers or archers) out there there that you could give to the Romans for a bit of game balance.

Eh? The romans probably if not do have the best ability to get local aor units. Even with just Italy you should have no trouble filling out your armies with auxilia. And the romans do have their own slinger unit already.

[Puupertti Ruma]

I voted neutral.

EB campaign depicts the years 272 BC to 10 AD. The Augustan reforms happened some 50 years before the EB ending date historically, for reasons that are also depicted in EB as the reform conditions. If they would be taken away, it would hurt the historical accuracy of the mod, at least IMHO. We cannot say for certain that the Augustan reforms were inevitable, but they are the only example that we have of what the romans did to cope with the demands of maintaining and defending a vast empire.

The other side to the problem is also valid. Not many players ever get to Augustan reforms (one reason could be that they at least used to be bugged so they couldn't be achieved). Also they use up precious unit slots.

So, I voted neutral.

I believe that if the team decides to remove the Augustan reforms and the units, a scenario that I highly doubt, they do it because they really really need those few unit slots at some much more important place. In other words, it will be a last resort not to be taking lightly.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Eh? The romans probably if not do have the best ability to get local aor units. Even with just Italy you should have no trouble filling out your armies with auxilia. And the romans do have their own slinger unit already.

I can fill my units with auxilia as any faction, I don't have to play Romani to do that. Regional units is my favorite feature in EB after the new campaign map as well as the improved & expanded traits system. Auxilia adds simply a gargantuan amount of variety to any EB game, but I would still like to have some Roman units. Regionals can be levied by any faction whereas Principes can only be recruited by the Romani.

As for the slinger unit, I am well aware of that. They are Accensi and they are great - but they're only trainable during the Camillian military era. Which is perfectly historical because I am almost 100% positive that no Roman slingers were found in the legions after the reforms of Gaius Marius. The only slingers in the Roman army were auxiliries of non-Italian background. However, I am not sure sure about the Polybian Era... I would really like to know if native slingers were still employed by the Romani after the Polybian reforms. If not, then I'll just have to go back to using Iaosatae and Mercenary Balearics, which is perfectly historical.

[The General]

If removing the Augustan reforms will give the Romans more new units, then I agree. The Romans may have tons of units, but I am in the opinion that During the Polybian and especially Marian eras there is simply not enough unit variety. I really hope EB II will give the Romans more units. During the Marian and Polybian era, the only missile unit are the Velites. Now I know the Romans did not think highly of missiles, but there is got to be a missile unit (slingers or archers) out there there that you could give to the Romans for a bit of game balance.

Yeah.

Wait, what?

You want MORE units for Rome?

Goddamn, some people sure are greedy. Down with 'em fanboys.

I'm for removing the reforms. Few people get there, and by the time one reaches them their effect on the gameplay is minimal at best, one would speculate (in any real, meaningful way).

Also, the removal of the reforms would allow more unit slots to be spent on the other factions and I believe this would be more in line with EB's general aim to represent the non-Roman factions better. One would think two reforms and a pretty damn good unit pool/variety Rome possesses even without the Augustan reforms would be quite enough for one faction, especially comparing it to some of the other factions.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Yeah.

Wait, what?

You want MORE units for Rome?

Goddamn, some people sure are greedy. Down with 'em fanboys.

I'm for removing the reforms. Few people get there, and by the time one reaches them their effect on the gameplay is minimal at best, one would speculate (in any real, meaningful way).

Also, the removal of the reforms would allow more unit slots to be spent on the other factions and I believe this would be more in line with EB's general aim to represent the non-Roman factions better. One would think two reforms and a pretty damn good unit pool/variety Rome possesses even without the Augustan reforms would be quite enough for one faction, especially comparing it to some of the other factions.

That's right, I am THAT greedy. Actually, I have changed my opinion by now and I do agree that the Augustan reforms should be removed, regardless of whether it'll benefit the Romani or not. However, is there any way the Praetorians could be given to the Romani without the Augustan Reforms? I would sure hate to see those backstabbing, emperor-killing elites go!

Mike H couldn't have stated it better. The faction limit or M2TW has been increased, but the number of unit slots has remained the same. Even though being a huge Romani fan, I still realize that I must sacrifice the Augustan Reforms so that those new factions can get more units. The Romani have the largest amount of unique units in EB, and that cannot remain the same.

P.S. Most units in EB have slightly different skins (such as Ptolemaic and Seleukid and Makedonian peltasts all look different) however, all of these variations still fill up only one unit slot, right?

[The General]

That's right, I am THAT greedy.

That's right, you-

Actually, I have changed my opinion by now and I do agree that the Augustan reforms should be removed, regardless of whether it'll benefit the Romani or not.

Wait, what?

Blergh, at whom shall I shout now, then?