Poll: Should the Augustan Reforms be removed?

[desert]

Existing units would probably make up the majority of their rosters, with a couple of faction-specific units each. Like Pergamene hoplites and Pergamene bodyguards or whatever.

[MeinPanzer]

Existing units would probably make up the majority of their rosters, with a couple of faction-specific units each. Like Pergamene hoplites and Pergamene bodyguards or whatever.

Why would Pergamene hoplites be added for EBII?

[Celtic_Punk]

maybe because they are one of the new factions....


i dont think 10 new factions should be added tho... theres still the same amount of units. So unless we can get 10 factions that share most of the already existing units, and get rid of the augustan troops so some of those factions can have thier own factionals, there just wont be enough unit space.

[Ludens]

i dont think 10 new factions should be added tho... theres still the same amount of units. So unless we can get 10 factions that share most of the already existing units, and get rid of the augustan troops so some of those factions can have thier own factionals, there just wont be enough unit space.

I suspect most of these new factions will mostly require new elites, and can draw most of their standard units from existing factions or regional units. For example, if the Boii are included, they will get the current Alpine regionals and Celtic units. All they really need is a bodyguard and one or two high-end units.

[MeinPanzer]

maybe because they are one of the new factions....

Yes, but what evidence is there that there should be a special Pergamene Hoplite unit separate from regular hoplites?

[Megas Methuselah]

Yes, but what evidence is there that there should be a special Pergamene Hoplite unit separate from regular hoplites?

You have the same effect as dumping a bucket of cold water on a drunken man! Anyways, they probably didn't mean it seriously, but were simply throwing the suggestion out there as an example or something. But I support your point completely, MP.

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

Just to add some thoughts, but the Romans already have a quite unified and bland roster for their campaigns. Most if not all of their infantry is made of a single or two infantry units, no matter the reforms and I found out that other factions have a far more diverse roster and compel me to use them. If they had to cut any part of the Augustan roster they could do it with the Ala Imperatoria (keeping the old roman regionals), the Equites Praetoriani or make the Romani use the greek siege weapon slots, but cutting down too severely will already impact a very restricted roster in practical terms. That's why we see mods such as the konny's allied legions being applied: there is simply a lack of diversity in any Roman army. Whether or not this is historical is a different matter, but fact is that the "lots and lots of units" argument simply doesn't convince me.

And Methuselah know that without that "shabby" city on the Tiber you would probably have no modern legal system, no Republican government, no well developed plumbing systems, no modern civilization, no Christianity, no political and natural sciences (spread by them) and many other things you praise and depend upon. Like it or not, Rome came to dominate the Classical world and no amount of cultural relativism will erase their contributions to society and culture as a whole until our days.

[antisocialmunky]

Well, most or if not all of those existed on their own or rediscovered time and time again. I would argue that it would have taken more time to spread and in the end by less uniform rather than being totally non-existant. To say so would be to underestimate human ingenuity and over simplify the numerous cultural exchanges and additions that make up the modern culture of the west. Again, granted, the Romans with their systematic Romanization of western Europe did indeed help in giving modern Europe a homogeneous base to work off of which is in it self important.

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

Yes.

I agree that Europe could still develop on her own without the Romans, following a different path. Still this is mostly conjecture, and it is granted that our present society as it developed and is now owes a lot to Rome in Classical Antiquity and their "civilizing" factor that allowed the spread of knowledge and forms well within the rest of Europe.

[antisocialmunky]

It owes its current make up to a lot of things. Though I do think you are right that now-a-days Rome is probably the most important one. However, I think the Rome's greatest contribution is inspiration to those who came after with the shadow of its greatness.

In a word Romanticism. :-p

[a completely inoffensive name]

Yes.

I agree that Europe could still develop on her own without the Romans, following a different path. Still this is mostly conjecture, and it is granted that our present society as it developed and is now owes a lot to Rome in Classical Antiquity and their "civilizing" factor that allowed the spread of knowledge and forms well within the rest of Europe.

How much though do we know that the Romans proliferated across Europe that were truly "Roman" inventions and were not just picked up from conquered, assimilated cultures. As an example, I have read many times, that the Romans picked up chain mail from the Gauls, even if the Romans were the ones who adapted the chain mail and brought it with them to other regions where other cultures adapted it and used it for centuries even after the Romans disappeared, should the glory go to the Romans for spreading the armor to those regions or to the Gauls for creating the armor in the first place.

I guess the thought I am trying to convey is that should we be admiring and praising those who make the inventions or those who promote/proliferate/establish/make well known such technology? I wish I could think this thought out more, but nevertheless reading what Basileos and antisocialmonkey posted made me want to type this out.

-ACIN (This might just be my first serious post! )

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

You could research for yourself.

Even though the Greeks and Celts have been using moderately sophisticate plumbing systems before, the Romans perfected it. I've once that the water consumption in Roman Cologne back then was equal to that in our times!

Most Democratic Governments today, including the US, are based on Roman models of governance.

Most legal systems around the world are based on the Jus Romanum, the Roman law originating in the Twelve Tables.

Most languages spoken on Western Europe descend from Romance, which descends from Latin, and which has a vast influence on English.

Romans invented our calendary, which with some changes is still in use today (you owe "July" and "August" to two well known figures).

Romans used the writing I'm using now, practically in the same way

Romans had probably the best road building technology of the Ancient Age and made numerous contributions to the field

Romans also invented concrete, which is used until our days for... your house and pretty much everything you see on the street

blah blah blah see for youself: http://www.mariamilani.com/ancient_r...inventions.htm.

It's actually very obvious, glaring and even overwhelming. Many things were also originally Roman, and do not fall into the general misconception you expressed here. Romans not only perfected many and many previous inventions but also had a fair share of their own, and what you could expect from a large Empire.

Moreover I think their biggest contribution was political thorough and thoroughly. Without Rome, the Papacy would probably never exist, and Christianity would never prosper inside the relative safety of Imperial borders, furthermore they played a part in the migrations of the late Empire that more or less composed the entire ethnic makeup of modern Europe; Romans also introduced new species of plants and animals into Europe during and before the Empire and were the first ones to make a systematic industrialized approach towards agriculture and mining that set them apart in efficiency, and which are more or less adopted in our industrial economies.

Etc.... etc... etc...

Edit: See also this.

[antisocialmunky]

Many devices and materials were also discovered independently in other places though at other times. However, the distinct traits of Western thinking and culture in general was greatly influenced by Rome.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Ahhh, thanks for the replies and links. I never doubted the massive contributions that the Romans have made, but with all the extreme Roman fans in the EB forums (as seen in this very thread) I was worried that at some point someone would state (or think) that everything the Romans had built was solely due to Roman engineering at its finest. I am a huge Roman fan myself (I almost solely play Roman campaigns) but I have somewhat become one of those people that does not like to see the contributions other cultures have made diminished. But anyway, thanks again for the quick reply!

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

Anyway, on the matter of non-original inventions: the Roman contribution is in no way diminished by the fact they weren't the original inventors. For example: one cannot deny that the US, Japan and countries around the world gave a very large contribution to the automobile industry in no way makes it smaller just for the fact that they did not invent the original Daimler Benz engine in the XIX century (in Germany). A great part of the Roman greatness comes from spreading Classical Greek culture and original ideas they adopted to very large proportions, such as the spatha designs (which influenced pretty much a lot of medieval swords, and was based on a previous Celtic one), chain mail (idem), aqueducts, their writing (which was based on the Etruscan one, that was based on Greek, which in turn came from the Phoenician alphabet) and etc...

So, regardless of fanboyism, Roman contributions were also great in their own way ;).

[mikil100]

Heres a thought. Remove the units and the new reform, and at the reform date add an ability to upgrade armor further, Idk if it can upgrade shields ect.. Obviously you won't be able to get Praetorians, or anything like that but you will be able to have new legionaries... small but a little change.

[Megas Methuselah]

They'll still have the same unit description, though. Just drop the Augustan units.

[Ludens]

Heres a thought. Remove the units and the new reform, and at the reform date add an ability to upgrade armor further, Idk if it can upgrade shields ect.. Obviously you won't be able to get Praetorians, or anything like that but you will be able to have new legionaries... small but a little change.

Since Augustean legionaries are equipped identically to Marian ones, I don't see how one could justify the upgrade. And no, they won't get Lorica Segmentata. Read the FAQ and use the search function if you want to know why.

[AymericNikator]

As for as I am concerned, I'd like to still see the imperial reforms, but a few unit could remain the same, like the legionnari. And what about an amour upgrade, could'nt it keep a unit for someone else -and I'm not talking about segmentata, but rather a new helmet, a more "gallic one" instead of the old montefortino-?
Nevertheless, it's up to the EB team to decide and I will respect their descision.

[Boyar Son]

have any EBk member commented on this ?

[Atilius]

have any EBk member commented on this ?

Yes - repeatedly. To summarize:

1. The opinions and impressions of EB players are valuable.
2. We will think this over when the time comes, but that time is not now, and probably not soon.
3. Most decisions concerning game mechanics affect a number of things that players rarely consider.

[Boyar Son]

Yes - repeatedly. To summarize:

1. The opinions and impressions of EB players are valuable.
2. We will think this over when the time comes, but that time is not now, and probably not soon.
3. Most decisions concerning game mechanics affect a number of things that players rarely consider.

oh pishhaaa, please take #1 out


#2 answer the question thx.

[mikil100]

Since Augustean legionaries are equipped identically to Marian ones, I don't see how one could justify the upgrade. And no, they won't get Lorica Segmentata. Read the FAQ and use the search function if you want to know why.

I mentioned no thing about Lorica Segmentata, read my post better.

I suppose it would be rather silly due to descriptions and such, would be great if they allowed that to be modded.. oh well then I think going without Augustan units is best, maybe someone could make a mini-mod for later Roman eras.

[Olaf Blackeyes]

IMHO they should because all they really serve right now is an end-game gimmick to give the player lolz, IF they reach the 27BC timeframe. The only real way that these reforms can become useful is if the EB team does two things tothe game.
1. Make the timeframe longer. ie from 14AD to 100AD ect.
2. Make the map bigger and have more factions (India)

And since we know that niether of these will happen i say cut them and make it a trait.

[MerlinusCDXX]

I have an idea that I don't think has been mentioned yet, except by Olaf Blackeyes (as a series of traits). Keep the reform, but not with any new units. Possibly some recruitment discount traits would be in order (if the team thinks that standardization would warrant that), possibly expanded AoR for more existing units, possibly tied to a new building line (like some type of "Granted Roman citizenship" thing that will give AoR for Leg. Cohorts and native Roman type cavalry). And adding any other traits that the team thinks would go with an Imperial reform.

[a completely inoffensive name]

As long as there is no redundant Augustan units, I am cool with it.

[Lucio Domicio Aureliano]

It´s a good idea to remove the Augustan Reforms or leave the reforms as long as there is no redundant Augustan units. The first option will give a good number of units slots when the second option will be a nice solution for whoever likes the augustan reforms.

[Banzai!]

Since EBII will most likely be the only "true" Classical-era mod for M2TW (with M2TW-quality units), the Augustan Reforms must be kept and they must wear lorica segmentata! For the sake of the community!

[Mister V]

Out of the question. They should stay. Roma victor! etc.

Seriously, though, I'd love to see them. However, if for some reason they take up valuable space (unit slots and other stuff) that could be used to serve a better purpose (not just portraying some other sucky meatshield merc unit), then yes, they should. But that's a very big IF.

[Fluvius Camillus]

Keep it! I like the shift from republic to Principate. Also not only the praetorians are new, what about the new auxiliarries, archers and imperial cavalry wings.