Poll: Should the Augustan Reforms be removed?

[bobbin]

We have already removed some units

I'm guessing that means the Dosidataskeli, Ordmalica and Dubosaverlacica are finally gone, shame

[Megas Methuselah]

I'm guessing that means the Dosidataskeli, Ordmalica and Dubosaverlacica are finally gone, shame

And finally, I am of the opinion that the Celto-Hellenic Hoplites ought to be preserved.

[geala]

In my opinion they should definitely get rid of the Augustan reforms, as far as new units are concerned. It's too late and too short. It should however be possible to become princeps. So a kind of political reform should be kept. The military reforms would be very nice to have but in a fair balance I would give the slots to the new factions before I would cancel even one unit of another faction.

A growing problem is also the notorious "lorica segmentata". I find it a bit problematic to have an Augustan military reform for just a few years and not the new armour for the reformed troops. The finds for "lorica segmentata" at Kalkriese-Niewedde show that the armour was used by the Augustan legionaries with a certain degree. It is reasonable not to implement an armour that was only used in the last years of the EB timeframe. But then why have a military reform for only the last years of the timeframe?

Edit: some typos

[lenin96]

Maybe the requirements should be lessened.

[Alsatia]

In my opinion they should definitely get rid of the Augustean reforms, as far as new units are concerned. It's too late and too short. It should however be possible to become princeps. So a kind of political reform should be kept. The military reforms would be very nice to have but in a fair balance I would give the slots to the new factions before I would cancel even one unit of another faction.

A growing problem is also the notorious "lorica segmentata". I find it a bit problematic to have an Augustean military reform for just a few years and not the new armour for the reformed troops. The finds for "lorica segmentata" at Kalkriese-Niewedder show that the armour was used by the Augustean legionaries with a certain degree. It is reasonable not to implement an armour that was only used in the last years of the EB timeframe. But then why have a military reform for only the last years of the timeframe?

They could be removed but as said above, what is the point of a reform when you cannot enjoy it?
Btw, I never had an Augustan Reform before so I really am neutral to the issue.

[Mulceber]

In my opinion they should definitely get rid of the Augustean reforms, as far as new units are concerned. It's too late and too short. It should however be possible to become princeps. So a kind of political reform should be kept. The military reforms would be very nice to have but in a fair balance I would give the slots to the new factions before I would cancel even one unit of another faction.

A growing problem is also the notorious "lorica segmentata". I find it a bit problematic to have an Augustean military reform for just a few years and not the new armour for the reformed troops. The finds for "lorica segmentata" at Kalkriese-Niewedder show that the armour was used by the Augustean legionaries with a certain degree. It is reasonable not to implement an armour that was only used in the last years of the EB timeframe. But then why have a military reform for only the last years of the timeframe?

LS was used by SOME of the Augustan legionaries. That implies somewhere around maybe a quarter? If that's the case, do you think that it's really worth representing in EB1 where all the members of a unit have the same armor? I don't. In EB2, now that they have the features of the M2 system, I'd say sure, have one of the armor types be LS, so I don't really see what you're complaining about.

I agree that perhaps the Augustan reforms should be made a little earlier, but I still think they should continue to exist. It was very fun to create the new units and Role-Play the changes undergoing the state as it converted to an Empire. The new troops were a visible manifestation of those changes, and to that end they were imho, extremely worthwhile. You're saying that they should be removed to make room for new troops, but according to the modders, they probably won't need the room as they've got enough as it is.

Thus, I think not only should the Augustan era troops stay, but we should try to find new ways of representing the transition from Republic to Empire as well - not new troops, but some scripted things to represent the changes. I noticed in my game that the number of Family Members greatly increased after the Augustan reforms, so I could see that as a manifestation of Augustus' marriage legislation, but it would be nice to get more things scripted in to help people Role-Play the transformation. -M

[Belisarius II]

Nullus!I say they should stay in the game. It's kinda like a goal for me. Trying to make Rome into an empire is a nice achievement. Seeing that not many have gotten that far, getting the reforms makes you feel even better. You'll be happy! Hurray!

[Megas Methuselah]

You too, my son?

[geala]

LS was used by SOME of the Augustan legionaries. That implies somewhere around maybe a quarter? If that's the case, do you think that it's really worth representing in EB1 where all the members of a unit have the same armor? I don't. In EB2, now that they have the features of the M2 system, I'd say sure, have one of the armor types be LS, so I don't really see what you're complaining about.

... -M

I concur with what you said later, so I shortened the quote.

How do you know that only a quarter of the legionaries used "LS"? Is it an estimation that stems from the percentage of findings compared to LH and LSq? I don't think so but I would like to hear about it.

What we can say about "LS" with some reliability is that it was a new form of armour which was given to the legions during the Augustan period. At least I don't know about findings from an earlier time. It is tempting to connect it with the military reforms that the princeps made to get rid of the civil war armies and form a reliable long lasting professional force. So even if "LS" was not widely used in the beginning it was "the" Augustan new armour. If I would create an Augustan military reform in a game with partly an emphasis on the appearance of soldiers I would also feel obliged to create the "new" armour feature for this soldiers.

In EB II you could also have only a part of a unit wearing "LS". You said it. You see the problem? It's perfect for "LS". I'm not talking about EB, I'm talking about EB II. So I would remove the Augustan military reform from the game. Than you don't have the slots occupied and don't have any reason to implement "LS".

I have to admit that I'm a bit biased. I never played the Romans in EB and don't plan to play them in EB II. I want their slots for my favorite factions.

[Mulceber]

How do you know that only a quarter of the legionaries used "LS"? Is it an estimation that stems from the percentage of findings compared to LH and LSq? I don't think so but I would like to hear about it.

I don't know at all. You said that there was some LS in use during the Augustan period, so I was just surmising what we could estimate. If I gave the impression that that was a statistic, I'm sorry - I was just trying to convey the fact that even if LS was in use during that era, it was far from the norm.

As for me, I'm a die-hard Romani player. I play other factions as well (currently working on Qarthadastim and KH) and I'd like to try some of the hellenistic factions (AS looks enticing) when I have the time, but Romani are still my favorites. -M

[seienchin]

I am glad, the EB Team doenst plan to take them out. The Augustan Reforms made my Rome Game incredibly fun. It is unnecessary to get new legionairies with the same stats as the old ones...

[MeinPanzer]

I don't know at all. You said that there was some LS in use during the Augustan period, so I was just surmising what we could estimate. If I gave the impression that that was a statistic, I'm sorry - I was just trying to convey the fact that even if LS was in use during that era, it was far from the norm.

As for me, I'm a die-hard Romani player. I play other factions as well (currently working on Qarthadastim and KH) and I'd like to try some of the hellenistic factions (AS looks enticing) when I have the time, but Romani are still my favorites. -M

And yet even in EBI armour types were represented for which we have even less evidence than we do for LS, as in, for instance, the lamellar armour of the Rhodian slingers. In my opinion it is totally inconsistent to argue both for the inclusion of the Augustan reforms because they were "inevitable" and for such armour types and yet not for LS.