Why Turtle

[Proserpine]

There has been at least one thread of turtle vs blitz games. It seems that the blitz player will always win, even against a human opponent. A blitz campaign can be over in less than 30 turns. Other than play-style, why would (or should) anyone choose to go turtle?

[Tollheit]

-the game is too easy, therefore you have to turtle to get at least sa bit of a challenge

[PBI]

Also, with proper blitzing one can roll up the whole map with only spear militia. Turtling is pretty much necessary if you ever want to see any of the rest of the unit roster, or the Mongols, gunpowder, the New World, most of the game in fact.

And one could argue that blitzing is essentially an exploit, since you are taking advantage of the woeful inadequacy of the AI in the face of relentless aggression.

[Sheogorath]

What PBI said.
Spear-spamming might win the game, but I happen to enjoy watching the Aztecs route in the face of concentrated musket fire. Or ram themselves into walls of pikemen. Or be run down by conquistadors.

Nothing like a bit of a native massacre to get you ready for ETW ;)

[Askthepizzaguy]

I agree... I've tried to turtle, intentionally, and I keep finding myself looking at the enemy settlements next to me and thinking... why can't I just go kill them?

I have armies. And they aren't going to attack me properly. They aren't aggressive enough or committed to my destruction.

When I see them, I think KILL KILL KILL KILL.... I can't not blitz anymore. I can't.

Must.... destroy.... everyone.

[seireikhaan]

I'm still trying to get the overall hang of the game, but I've found myself still relapsing into my old MTW grand strategy of quick blitzes followed by long periods of peace, if possible. IE- I just started a Moors game with SS 4.1, and with the original faction Heir, I conquered all the rest of Iberia with spear militia, mercs, and 3 jihads. T'was a rather nice holy warrior Sultan by the time he was laid to rest. After I essentially knocked out the Portugese(they somehow ended up taking Cork in Ireland) and the Aragonese(still haven't figured out where they are, prolly have a family member wandering around), I basically sat down, with the exception of some conquests a bit later on in Africa, taking Tunis and El Qoed, then Timbuktu and whatever that tiny, worthless village in west Africa is. Of course, not continuing my conquests into Europe seems to perhaps be coming back to bite me. As of now, its about 1255, and I'm at war with France, Hungary, England, Poland, Milan, the Papacy, Portugal, Aragon(bearing in mind those two are moot points), and the HRE, after his Holiness called for a crusade to take back Tunis from me. And of course, nearly all of Catholicism banned together to come after me, with France, Poland, England, and the HRE sending full stack armies with 5 star commanders(including a two kings and a faction Heir), armed with light men at arms and oodles of various knights. I rather do hope a one or two of the crusades make it to Tunis, I would like to test out my shiny new citadel armed with cannon towers, defended by my shiny new dismounted christian guards.

[Galain_Ironhide]

If you read it, the OP was referring to Player vs Player and in single player mode. In P v P he is absolutely right. There is no point turtling against a human player because he will just gobble you up quicker than you can say - BUT I HAVENT RECRUITED ARMOURED SWORDSMEN YET!. (Looks at Askthepizzaguys hotseat 1v1 record - what is it 8-nil or something?!)

However in the single player game I can not and will not bring myself to blitz the map, there is just no fun in it for me (but I do admire reading up on those who have done it). If I were to do that, I think my interest in the TW series would have perished some time ago. I confess to being a "single player" Turtler, I am one of those players who loves micromanagement and waiting around for the good units to become available. It can take me months (my work has a lot to do with it as well) to finish a good camaign. Thats just how I love to play the game.

Different strokes for different folks.

[Flying Pig]

Simple for me: GUNS! Shiny armoured foot knights, muskets, dragoons, cannons and ribaults are something that 30-turn campaigns cannot replace. Also, I far prefer buying and garissoning land to sending thousands of virtual men to their deaths.

Has anyone found a way of modding the military AI, besides a ton of king's purse? It would make turtling far more fun

[Askthepizzaguy]

If you read it, the OP was referring to Player vs Player and in single player mode. In P v P he is absolutely right. There is no point turtling against a human player because he will just gobble you up quicker than you can say - BUT I HAVENT RECRUITED ARMOURED SWORDSMEN YET!. (Looks at Askthepizzaguys hotseat 1v1 record - what is it 8-nil or something?!)

However in the single player game I can not and will not bring myself to blitz the map, there is just no fun in it for me (but I do admire reading up on those who have done it). If I were to do that, I think my interest in the TW series would have perished some time ago. I confess to being a "single player" Turtler, I am one of those players who loves micromanagement and waiting around for the good units to become available. It can take me months (my work has a lot to do with it as well) to finish a good camaign. Thats just how I love to play the game.

Different strokes for different folks.

It's 8-0, and thats not even counting those who abandoned their campaigns. Those should count as losses as well.

If so, that would be another loss for Ichigo, Monk, and losses for Ignoramus, Elite Ferret, and some others as well.

More like 12-0, plus a draw because I couldn't get the epic pizzaguy versus Grog (blitzmaster v blitzmaster) duel to the death working, and maybe another draw because Chaotix didn't drop on me, my computer died, and now I cant get any save files to work that werent generated by my own computer for some odd reason.

As for your points about blitzing...

I can get armoured swordsmen and stuff. When I blitz, my bank account is insane. All that pillaging, sacking, selling of useless crap. (No need for an armourer, ballista range, or stables in England, when I'm the HRE conquering everything else already)

What I do is, unless I'm doing the UBER blitzes where I'm trying for a record, I occupy the largest cities and fortresses on the map and I spend all my money there. After a crusade, I have like 8-15 generals who have 5 chivalry or better, and I ship them off to my core cities to boost them up. Especially ones who already have a significant boost from the local farming and a good population. HINT: NOT DURAZZO.

Take Rome, Take Constantinople, Take Bran, Take Palermo... turn Bologna into a fortress. Then, sack everyone and sell their stuff, and pour the profits into these areas. And send the uber chivalrous generals to govern them.

In 20 turns, I'll have the most advanced facilities the game has to offer, (still slower than an uber blitz, but wayyyy faster than a turtle or moderate speed) and I will have a vast stretch of territory as well.

Here's my issue.

I honestly cannot turtle anymore. I used to... I tried to do it again. But what's stopping me?

1. The AI will eventually betray you, so unless you share no border and are not in range of their military, the AI will invade you in pathetic fashion.

2. Unless you disband all your forces, you typically can get a pretty awesome invasion force by turn 2 or 3, and an unstoppable one by turn 10. Then you're paying all that money for a huge stack... which is magnetically attracted to every single large, bloated, underdefended idiot AI province. You cannot resist the awesome power of the laws of physics.

Here's a quote for everyone's signature line:

My armies are attracted to all stupidity in the universe, with a force equal to the product of the mass of my army multiplied by the stupidity of the population, and inversely proportional to the distance between them.

3. Because the game gives me huge armies and allows me to control them, and any human player can defeat any AI opponent even with 2:1 or 3:1 odds against you, and the AI is too stupid to rally all their forces towards my empire, I simply allow the stupidational force to attract my armies towards the fat bloated cities the AI has created by the order of highest stupidity and smallest distance.

4. Once my armies come in contact with the enemy, they are instantly destroyed. I am not sure how. Sometimes I black out and when I wake up, I am covered in blood and I have skulls all around me, and I'm always holding a plastic picnic spoon for some reason.

5. When the enemy army is obliterated, their undefended provinces become involuntarily occupied by my very large, victorious forces, who sack the province before I even consciously click the button. They seem to know my wishes.

6. I must destroy their armour and troop making facilities and ransom or exterminate their prisoners. My brain will not allow me to continue the game until I do.

7. As soon as another province is taken, the stupid people in the province are all killed or given a thorough education in warfare, and the stupidity coefficient becomes zero, and then my armies are attracted once again to the irresistable forces of stupidity around me.

So, you see, I'm not really a blitzmaster, or a bloodthirsty conqueror, or a mass murderer. It's nature itself which compels my armies forward and, through no fault of my own, they destroy everything stupid in thier path. One might say I am completely and totally innocent in all of this. I'm being painted as some insane death god, but really, I'm just issuing orders for my troops to cleanse the world of dumbness. If there are a few million casualties along the way, what's the harm in that?

And when I tell my troops to turtle, they don't listen. They report back to me how weak and vulnerable my enemy is, and how they are a mere one to two turn march away from my forces, and how few casualties I will take, and how those casualties are most likely militia, mercenary, or peasants, and they have taken a poll, and those people actually like dying. (!)

So, you see folks, I've tried very hard to be a patient, moral leader. But nature itself makes me do evil things to stupid people. I'm totally blameless in all this. Would you put a kitten on trial for chasing a yarn ball? No, of course not.

In closing, I'd just like to say how much I like kittens. The End.

[FactionHeir]

Play using a mod that has some AI improvements.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Someday, somehow, I will make you laugh, Factionheir.

[FactionHeir]

I think you did during MPC1 diplomacy

[Askthepizzaguy]

What? The taunting from tiny Denmark didn't strike cold fear into your heart? Even when I threatened to obliterate the Sicilian Empire?

You've got nerves of steel, my friend. Few trifle with me and live to tell the tale.


EDIT: Forgot to add the death vikings.

viking

THERE! Now fear me, foolish mortal. I mean, assistant moderator, sir.





Have a daisy.

[part_time_player]

How much you can blitz certainly depends on the MOD you play (if any).
Personally, it's a few simple house rules that stop me from blitzing that I use out of personal preference for a more immersive game experience. My main "rule" is to roleplay the faction leader's overall direction of his forces and management of the empire and I roleplay it as a nice guy on a mission to make his people succesfull.

[Proserpine]

4. Once my armies come in contact with the enemy, they are instantly destroyed. I am not sure how. Sometimes I black out and when I wake up, I am covered in blood and I have skulls all around me, and I'm always holding a plastic picnic spoon for some reason.

. . .

In closing, I'd just like to say how much I like kittens. The End.

Har-de har-har Well ATPG you made me laugh, but also scared the bejasus out of me I hope I never meet you in multiplayer, your "Armoured Spearmen" would no doubt clean my clock toot-de-sweet.

Here's a question though for you ATPG, have you used VanillaMod or do you only use Vanilla MTW2?

[Grog]

The simple answer is that both turtling and blitzing are different game styles. Chalk and cheese.

I have never really played a turtle game, but have played long campaigns before with max rep/max chivalry objectives and had a lot of fun in doing so (ie: taking down the hordes with HRE infantry based armies after diplomaticly relocating the pope to Asia minor was fun)

I can see why people turtle(or moderately expand) as it does have a more historical aspect to the game than the 'take 45 provinces + city x/y' of the vanilla long campaign. ie: you can micro-manage an empire for a few hundred years and nurture alliances, all good fun.

However, uberschnelling blitzkrieg provides you with the greatest opponent known to man...TIME! Far more devastating than any AI*

(* - I realise that by posting this, I may attract the attention of an AI-driven hegemonising swarm in a far off galaxy, who will subsequently abandon their galactic blitzing and proceed to Sol at 233 kilolights to teach the dumb apes a lesson; in which case it's all ATPG's fault )

Also, for record speed blitzing it's not a simple matter of overwhelming the PLAI with outrageous stacks of unwashed peasants and militia, as this is a sign of using too many troops in too few places at once.

The reality is you have to fight a lot of offensive battles with threadbare armies against tough odds, as opposed to the Turtle defending castles/cities/terrain against the AI with a well armoured and upgraded garrison of elite troops, and generally advance warning of enemy incursions via spies/watchtowers etc so giving time to train extra men and recruit mercs/reinforce areas before the AI siege stack trundles into view.

So in all, two very different playstyles for different objectives.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I'm actually engaged in a Sicilian campaign where the goal is both to blitz effectively, and also to create fairly decent armies, all the while following the Total Independence house rules.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Total Independence rules:

1. Objective is to make the rebels win the game, and obliterate all other factions.

2. You can only have soldiers in 10 settlements at any given time. (your core 10 provinces)

3. You cannot recruit priests or imams, or build religious buildings of any kind.

4. You cannot execute prisoners, sack, or exterminate.

5. You may not crusade or jihad.

6. You can change which 10 provinces you wish to hold at any given time, but never have soldiers in more than 10 provinces.

7. You must defeat the Mongols, Timurids, and Aztecs. This is a long campaign.

8. See Ramses II CP's signature line for the End of Tyranny campaign, this is similar.

9. I will be blitzing as hard as I can, but I will be severely hampered by the house rules. Good luck to me!

And no, I don't use vanillamod. I should give it a try.

[Proserpine]

I'm actually engaged in a Sicilian campaign where the goal is both to blitz effectively, and also to create fairly decent armies, all the while following the Total Independence house rules.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Total Independence rules:

1. Objective is to make the rebels win the game, and obliterate all other factions.

2. You can only have soldiers in 10 settlements at any given time. (your core 10 provinces)

3. You cannot recruit priests or imams, or build religious buildings of any kind.

4. You cannot execute prisoners, sack, or exterminate.

5. You may not crusade or jihad.

6. You can change which 10 provinces you wish to hold at any given time, but never have soldiers in more than 10 provinces.

7. You must defeat the Mongols, Timurids, and Aztecs. This is a long campaign.

8. See Ramses II CP's signature line for the End of Tyranny campaign, this is similar.

9. I will be blitzing as hard as I can, but I will be severely hampered by the house rules. Good luck to me!

And no, I don't use vanillamod. I should give it a try.

Already I'm looking forward to your AAR on that one. Good luck!

[Ferret]

It's 8-0, and thats not even counting those who abandoned their campaigns. Those should count as losses as well.

If so, that would be another loss for Ichigo, Monk, and losses for Ignoramus, Elite Ferret, and some others as well.

More like 12-0, plus a draw because I couldn't get the epic pizzaguy versus Grog (blitzmaster v blitzmaster) duel to the death working, and maybe another draw because Chaotix didn't drop on me, my computer died, and now I cant get any save files to work that werent generated by my own computer for some odd reason.

What so when the other person can no longer play you win but if you can no longer play it's a draw? That sounds fair...

I'm guessing you knew you couldn't beat Grog and so pretended the save broke and then thought you would lose the rest and the hotseats and so claimed that BC doesn't work on your new computer. I've got you sussed out...

Besides I am willing to continue our duel now that I have more time, but you haven't been able to play for months now.

[Askthepizzaguy]

What so when the other person can no longer play you win but if you can no longer play it's a draw? That sounds fair...

I'm guessing you knew you couldn't beat Grog and so pretended the save broke and then thought you would lose the rest and the hotseats and so claimed that BC doesn't work on your new computer. I've got you sussed out...

Besides I am willing to continue our duel now that I have more time, but you haven't been able to play for months now.

I thought you were simply unwilling to play?

You didn't mention any reason. Just put it off.

And yes, none of my hotseats work, and I havent been able to get duels to work either. And since the rest of y'all never conceded defeat, I couldn't add those to my total. not that it matters anyway, since I don't really get anything for winning.

I'd be delighted to duel again, if I could figure out how. I'm guessing I'd have to start a new save file using my current version and settings. My own save files should be compatible, I can't imagine why they wouldn't be. I can't imagine why I can't play the old saves either, but I'm no computer expert.

Apologies however, if I worded it in such a way to suggest the rest of you conceded if you didn't, but I haven't gotten the save from you in months, so I just assumed you didn't want to play anymore.

[Ferret]

I'm just lazy

[Quintus.JC]

Waiting for the two important events; Discovery of Gunpowder and that world is round (Copernicus thingy)

[Old Geezer]

Turtling and Blitzing are related to personality types. Some people eat fast while others take an hour to eat a hot dog. Some micromanage every aspect of the game whilst others automanage everything. Some go to DisneyWorld or on cruises whereas the sane go skiing and backpacking or kayaking or bowling.

[TheLastPrivate]

I personally enjoy both, altho naturally a turtle I've had great fun adopting ATPG's guides to my playstyle.

It's about what YOU enjoy, nothing more.

Given the EZmode of the singleplayer game even on VH/VH, argueing over which is "superior" or "efficient" is hardly worth the debate.

It's like debating on why you shoul eat a pizza with your hands or forks. Maybe we should ask ATPG

[Askthepizzaguy]

The answer is obvious. You must cook the pizza over a bonfire, fuelled by the carcass of the infidel, you must cut the pizza with your ceremonial assassin's blade, which you just used to kill the Pope, and you must season the pizza with the blood of weeping women and the eyes of little peasant children.

Then, you have a full-fledged pizza my friends.



EDIT: Eat the pizza with your blood-soaked hands, of course.

[Old Geezer]

Mmmm. Pizza. One of the best pizzas ever was the pepperoni one from Pizza Hut that we reheated in a cardboard oven (box lined with aluminum foil) when we backpacked (a whole mile) into Wheeler Geologic are in Colorado. Now that's one thing that is even better than destroying the Timurids with peasants.

[FactionHeir]

Guys, please get back on topic, eh?

[oz_wwjd]

I doubt it's possible to defeat the Timurids with peasants,said peasants would run at the sight of the giant pachyderms which they field. On the Blitzing topic, What happens when say, a turkish blitz meets the mongols,as they can be lethal in field battles...

[PBI]

I think a really flat-out blitz is supposed to be complete long before the Mongols arrive. Otherwise the expansion is probably slow enough to prepare a defense against the Mongols.

[Quintus.JC]

I doubt it's possible to defeat the Timurids with peasants,said peasants would run at the sight of the giant pachyderms which they field. On the Blitzing topic, What happens when say, a turkish blitz meets the mongols,as they can be lethal in field battles...

The Mongols arrives in the 13th century. A blitz would normally take no more than 60 years to complete, or else it wouldn't be called a blitz.