seleucid cataphract reform problem

[Kasrkin519]

hey

i've been playing a seleucid campaign for some time now and i havent been able to get the reforms.

i've read the faq and ive browsed the forums for more information but nothing seems to work.


it is after 253bc. i've lost many more than 2 battles against pahlava and baktria with multiple FM's. i've tried to make sure cavalry were more than 10% of every battle and that both sides had more than 250 men. i made sure the advantage was slightly against me and lost at least 20% of my bodyguard each time. i've also lost plenty of autobattles which also should of been able to trigger them.

however, i've never been able to get the reforms.



is there some detail i've missed? or some more exact detail of exactly what i need to do to get the reforms.

thanks for any input.

[bovi]

How to get the seleucid cataphract reforms:

* Play the game.

If you lose battles often, you may get them. If you don't, you don't need them. No need to pursue it.

[Dutchhoplite]

Well, that could be a long discussion…

Cataphracts aren’t mentioned during Molon’s revolt or at Raphia. I think the first time they appear in a Seleukid army is at Panion and i’m wondering if they are mentioned by Polybios at all in that specific battle. My best guess is that Antiochos III encountered them during his eastern campaigns and was impressed enough to incorporate them in his own army.

Why is that do you think??

The answer is not: he was defeated by them.

I think the Seleukid reforms are unnecessary hard and somewhat unhistorical.
Isn’t there a way getting around them??

[burn_again]

There is a cheat to get the reforms, you can give 2 of your FMs the necessary trait via console and you'll get your reforms after 5 years.
Type for example:
give_trait "Theodoros Syriakos" ImpressedByCats and
give_trait "Alexandros Syriakos" ImpressedByCats

5 years later you have your cataphracts.

I too find the reforms a bit hard to get, but I'm a bit impatient. They are definitely not ahistorical though.

[Kasrkin519]

There is a cheat to get the reforms, you can give 2 of your FMs the necessary trait via console and you'll get your reforms after 5 years.
Type for example:
give_trait "Theodoros Syriakos" ImpressedByCats and
give_trait "Alexandros Syriakos" ImpressedByCats

5 years later you have your cataphracts.

I too find the reforms a bit hard to get, but I'm a bit impatient. They are definitely not ahistorical though.

ill give that a try! thanks alot!

[Strategos Alexandros]

To legitimately get them, doesn't a general have to lose part of his bodyguard to them as well as the battle or am I imagining it?

[DeathEmperor]

The adoption of Cataphracts into the Seleucid army definitely isn't ahistorical.

Most likely during his Anabasis in the East Antiochus III first encountered them fighting against Arsaces II in Parthia, and then again against Euthydemus in Bactria. Antiochus was probably most impressed by cataphracts at the Battle of Arius, where he personally led his own cavalry against Euthydemus' 4,000-10,000 elite Bactrian cavalry which probably contained a fair number of 'cataphracts style' cavalry. After his Anabasis there are accounts of Seleucid cataphracts present at the battles of Panion and Magnesia as well as the parade of Antiochus IV(if I remember right) at Daphne.

Personally, I wait for a couple years and type 'give_trait "character name" ImpressedByCats' and later 'ImpressedByCats2' to the same guy. Usually by 253 I've conquered all of Anatolia and Armenia, and kicked the Ptolemies out of Asia, though I don't conquer any parts of Egypt since I model my AS campaigns after Antiochus the Great's actual ones.

[MeinPanzer]

The adoption of Cataphracts into the Seleucid army definitely isn't ahistorical.

Most likely during his Anabasis in the East Antiochus III first encountered them fighting against Arsaces II in Parthia, and then again against Euthydemus in Bactria. Antiochus was probably most impressed by cataphracts at the Battle of Arius, where he personally led his own cavalry against Euthydemus' 4,000-10,000 elite Bactrian cavalry which probably contained a fair number of 'cataphracts style' cavalry. After his Anabasis there are accounts of Seleucid cataphracts present at the battles of Panion and Magnesia as well as the parade of Antiochus IV(if I remember right) at Daphne.

I don't think Dutchhoplite was saying that including Seleucid cataphracts is historically inaccurate, just that having to be defeated by the Bactrians or Parthians as the Seleucids in order to acquire them is. Which absolutely makes sense, because you don't have to be defeated by an army in order to take on their good ideas.

[abou]

To be honest, I'm not too crazy about it either, but it was put in before I joined the team and before I became faction coordinator. We'll see what happens for EBII. We have greater flexibility with the script and what not so maybe we'll include a different mechanism. After all, Antiochos III most certainly did not lose his battles in the east during his anabasis and eagerly adopted the cataphracts upon his return.

[Lysimachos]

I personally like the idea of being forced to have setbacks in order to become more powerful. That is a difference to all the usual "crush 'em and take it all" (which is basically the principle behind most strategy games...). It's not necessary, but i think it's nice in some way.

[Jaywalker-Jack]

I think asking people to deliberatly lose battles is taking RP a bit too far, and I don't get the "if you don't lose you don't need them" answer - of course people want to play with all possible units.
And as many others have already stated, you don't need to be beaten by a tactic to realise its usefulness. Take the Roman adoption of elephants or celtic chariot technology, and much later the British employment of the Gorkhas.

Type for example:
give_trait "Theodoros Syriakos" ImpressedByCats and
give_trait "Alexandros Syriakos" ImpressedByCats

Funny... recently used this cheat, and picked those exact two generals.

[fenix3279]

I think asking people to deliberatly lose battles is taking RP a bit too far, and I don't get the "if you don't lose you don't need them" answer - of course people want to play with all possible units.
And as many others have already stated, you don't need to be beaten by a tactic to realise its usefulness. Take the Roman adoption of elephants or celtic chariot technology, and much later the British employment of the Gorkhas.



Funny... recently used this cheat, and picked those exact two generals.

Wow, my memory of ancient battles must be broken or something because I cannot recall one incident the romans deployed elephants or chariots.

EDIT:

Wait a sec... After I re-read your post, maybe that was the point?

[||Lz3||]

Wow, my memory of ancient battles must be broken or something because I cannot recall one incident the romans deployed elephants or chariots.

EDIT:

Wait a sec... After I re-read your post, maybe that was the point?

well they did used charriots in the battle of asculum didn't they?

[Lysimachos]

And they used elephants from Numidia at some occasions, at least in one makedonian war and at Magnesia, iirc; The last time 46 BC at the battle of Thapsus by Caesar's enemies, and Caesar himself had taken one indian elephant on his invasion of Britain.

[DeathEmperor]

Wow, my memory of ancient battles must be broken or something because I cannot recall one incident the romans deployed elephants or chariots.

EDIT:

Wait a sec... After I re-read your post, maybe that was the point?

Against Pyrrhus at Asculum they used ox-led chariots and wagons that were probably equipped with spears and perhaps sarissae. Titus Quintus Flaminius used African forest elephants captured/taken from Carthage to break the left wing of Philip V's army at Cynoscephalae. If I remember right there were also a few of these in the army of Lucius Cornelius Scipio at Magnesia, but they didn't play a major part in the battle.

[Aemilius Paulus]

And they used elephants from Numidia at some occasions, at least in one makedonian war and at Magnesia, iirc; The last time 46 BC at the battle of Thapsus by Caesar's enemies, and Caesar himself had taken one indian elephant on his invasion of Britain.

Wow! An Indian Elephant?!?! No kidding! I have read the detailed history of Caesar's invasion of Britain and I have not found any mentions of elephants. It is written that Claudius used war elephants and had supposedly conquered Britain with no losses on his side, but no remains of elephants or their armor have been found in all of northern Europe. I wonder what was the reaction of the poor Catuvellauni, Cassi and other British tribes!

[satalexton]

a very large steak? =P

[Lysimachos]

Wow! An Indian Elephant?!?! No kidding! I have read the detailed history of Caesar's invasion of Britain and I have not found any mentions of elephants. It is written that Claudius used war elephants and had supposedly conquered Britain with no losses on his side, but no remains of elephants or their armor have been found in all of northern Europe. I wonder what was the reaction of the poor Catuvellauni, Cassi and other British tribes!

My source is Ernle Bradford in his Caesar biography who in turn refers to Polyaenus 'Stratagems in war'.
The elephant has been used at the crossing of the Thames and is not mentioned after this.

[Digby Tatham Warter]

There is a cheat to get the reforms, you can give 2 of your FMs the necessary trait via console and you'll get your reforms after 5 years.
Type for example:
give_trait "Theodoros Syriakos" ImpressedByCats and
give_trait "Alexandros Syriakos" ImpressedByCats

5 years later you have your cataphracts.

I too find the reforms a bit hard to get, but I'm a bit impatient. They are definitely not ahistorical though.

Great, thanks alot, I had a very long campaign in V1.0, with no Cats, despite a lot of effort!

[bovi]

If you really want them so bad, it's a lot easier to just mod them to not require the reform.

[burn_again]

I find it better not to mod them in, but to get them via reform. However if I don't get the reform after decades of war against Pahlava, I trigger the reform myself through the traits with the normal time delay. Cats are just too badass for not having them around at all.

I have a theory why it is so hard to trigger the reforms. In my campaigns I notice that the steppe factions, especially Pahlava, do field too much infantry (mercs and regionals), so perhaps the necessary percentage of cavalry is not reached.

Even if this is not the cause it maybe is the cause for the still-not-so-great Pahlava AI performance. It's probably a result of the reformed government system. When Pahlava conquers the eastern AS cities, they don't get a government building placed by the script, they just repair the AS gov. So they have only lvl4 govs in Marakanda and Asaak, and as a result they spam Pantodapoi and not much else.
It's similar for the other nomadic factions but Pahalva suffers the most from it because they don't have many steppe provinces to recruit cavalry from and in terms of infantry they can never match the AS and thus lose all their newly conquered cities after a short time.

[Digby Tatham Warter]

If you really want them so bad, it's a lot easier to just mod them to not require the reform.

Eh! do what?

My idea of easy, is a simple line in console, messing with files for a software retard like me, is scary!

[martybook]

This is my first post and I was having the same problem. I intentionally lost many battles against Saka to try and get the cataphract reform but it just won't happen. I don't mind giving a few family members the necessary traits, but I can't get my console open either. Is it still the "~" key like the original Rome: Total War?

[athanaric]

I don't mind giving a few family members the necessary traits, but I can't get my console open either. Is it still the "~" key like the original Rome: Total War?

Yes. Although it depends on the "nationality" of your keyboard. For me (Germany, maybe it's the same for Sweden, too) it is the "^" key for this game. With M2TW, it's "ö".

[Lysimachos]

This is my first post and I was having the same problem. I intentionally lost many battles against Saka to try and get the cataphract reform but it just won't happen. I don't mind giving a few family members the necessary traits, but I can't get my console open either. Is it still the "~" key like the original Rome: Total War?

I'm not sure right now if the Saka even work. I recall it had to be Pahlava, Baktria or Hayasdan, but I may remember wrong.
If you are using Vista or Win 7 your problem could be related to the infrared receiver. Look at the following threads for advice:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...with-Windows-7
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...397-Rome-Shell

[martybook]

Ah I see. That would make sense then. Thank you both for the input.

[Biowulf]

lol I never did find a working solution for getting the console to work with EB. But I did manage to get FOW off through the game files, so I don't mind.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

Well, that could be a long discussion…

Cataphracts aren’t mentioned during Molon’s revolt or at Raphia. I think the first time they appear in a Seleukid army is at Panion and i’m wondering if they are mentioned by Polybios at all in that specific battle. My best guess is that Antiochos III encountered them during his eastern campaigns and was impressed enough to incorporate them in his own army.

Why is that do you think??

The answer is not: he was defeated by them.

I think the Seleukid reforms are unnecessary hard and somewhat unhistorical.

Antiochos III 'The Great' may not have been defeated by Parthian cataphracts.

But I bet that generals working for the previous Seleucid king Seleucus II, WERE defeated by the Parthians. Seleucia was in serious decline for a 23-year period between 250 BCE and 227 BCE, and lost a LOT of territory in the east. After that, Antiochos III turned things around. He won fame and glory by recovering LOST Seleucid territories, not by conquering NEW ones.

So I think the EB team got the Seleucid Cataphract Reform process exactly right.

If you want to be historical with the Seleucids, then not only do you have to recreate the glorious time of Antiochus III, the high point of the Selucid Empire - you also have to recreate the period of serious decline which preceded it!

The early part of the Seleucid campaign should basically be a nightmare, with your overstretched, under-resourced and mostly poorly trained army being attacked on two fronts, and getting its butt kicked severely! Parthia and Saka should be overrunning your easternmost provinces, and the Ptolemies should be taking Damascus from you.

In EB, the period of Seleucid decline starts early, in 272 BC instead of 250 BC. In EB, Pahlava, Baktria, Hayasdan and Pontos all start as independents, instead of Seleucid satrapies and protectorates. And Pahlava attacks you straightaway.

All in all, historically speaking, the Seleucids shouldn't get cataphracts for at least 50 years after the start of the campaign. So, no earlier than 222 BC.

[martybook]

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showth...397-Rome-Shell

This link has directions for getting the console up that worked for me. Thank you all for the help.

[ChingizLink]

Wow! An Indian Elephant?!?! No kidding! I have read the detailed history of Caesar's invasion of Britain and I have not found any mentions of elephants. It is written that Claudius used war elephants and had supposedly conquered Britain with no losses on his side, but no remains of elephants or their armor have been found in all of northern Europe. I wonder what was the reaction of the poor Catuvellauni, Cassi and other British tribes!

Speaking of elephants and Caesar, I loved reading the anecdote (I hope it's actually true) from Caesar's Alexandrian/Civil Wars (I have a translation of both with one generic title...sorry I can't quite remember which version I have, there are about a million of each, as many/most of you likely know) about how Caesar reacted to intel, prior to Thapsus, that Scipio and Cato (the other Optimates present, etc) had elephants in their forces.

If I remember correctly, he sent word, and not to a local region that might just happen to have elephants running around, mind you, but to Rome, with something to the effect that if any elephants were being used in the games, he needed them sent to his camp. Not for the battle itself, mind you, but to get the horses and men accustomed to the sight and smell of them. Talk about a brilliantly pragmatic man...one could say that he might have opted to get them from a local source, but in his circumstances, I suppose that Rome very likely was the most certain and reliable source, if not the most expedient, secure, and and even the cheapest as well (quite a bizarre scenario to imagine).

Since I began to seriously study military history a few years ago, I've come to pay more attention to these little details than the huge victories and accomplishments. Obviously the details lead to the latter, but some historians, especially some of the more popular (go figure...), seem to neglect that.