Goths vs Chivalric Knights 1:1?

[Roark]

Has anyone field-tested 1:1 Goths vs Chivalric Knights? (Same frontage & valour + charge into combat)

Yes, I'm a lazy lazy man, but more to the point, I just got a new computer and haven't reinstalled MTW.

[Knight of the Rose]

Hey Roak,

You know, I'm lazy too, so I just made a check in the unit guide:

Goths:
Charge 4 Attack 4 (AP) Defence 7 Armour 9 Speed 9, 12, 16 Morale 8 Cost 725 Support cost 60

Chiv:
Charge 8 Attack 5 Defence 5 Armour 7 Speed 9, 20, 22 Morale 8 Cost 675 Support cost 85

Basically, based on this, I'd say the chiv's would pull down some goths in the initial charge, but then they would slowly loose to the fact that goth defence is too high, and the goth's maces get a bonus vs. armor.

I'll estimate a roughly 15-20 goths down before the chiv's rout at about 8-10 knights left. But I'm too lazy to check.

Just curious: why?

/KotR

[Motep]

Hey Roak,

You know, I'm lazy too, so I just made a check in the unit guide:

Goths:
Charge 4 Attack 4 (AP) Defence 7 Armour 9 Speed 9, 12, 16 Morale 8 Cost 725 Support cost 60

Chiv:
Charge 8 Attack 5 Defence 5 Armour 7 Speed 9, 20, 22 Morale 8 Cost 675 Support cost 85

Basically, based on this, I'd say the chiv's would pull down some goths in the initial charge, but then they would slowly loose to the fact that goth defence is too high, and the goth's maces get a bonus vs. armor.

I'll estimate a roughly 15-20 goths down before the chiv's rout at about 8-10 knights left. But I'm too lazy to check.

Just curious: why?

/KotR

Thats a good guess! I lost 18 gothic knights, and the chivs routed with 13 men left. But most of the casualties happened in the fighting, the chivs killed a couple with charge, but immediately lost a sizable chink of their forces.

[Ironsword]

^^That's some quick field testing there fella...

Next, longbows vs Arbalesters...!

[Motep]

^^That's some quick field testing there fella...

Next, longbows vs Arbalesters...!

I will test.

(...it sounds like a good idea for a test, as it...)

Regular or pavise?

[Motep]

Longbows win. 22-30 deaths, killed 70-80
This is the standard result. On an empty field, the two go at it (both in a standard formation, btw), and the longbows kill 50-60 before they run out of ammo. By this time they have lost 2-10 men. Then, you rush the enemy gunmen, where you kill 20 for 20, generally, and the gunmen flee.

[LittleGrizzly]

Run away with the chiv knights until the goths are exhausted and victory is yours!

[Knight of the Rose]

Oh yeay - completely LittleGrizzly! This can not be taken as a proof that goths are better than chivs! Absolutely not, as they have (or could have) different roles. The test was merely what was asked: In combat, if the two should clash, all things being equal, who would win?

Should I face an army of goths and have nothing but chivs, then I would rely on fatigue and charge, and using my speed to combat the goths on a hill with me on top of it. Then you would see a totally different outcome, to be sure.

/KotR

[Gyrfalcon]

After seeing this thread earlier, I was intrigued as to what the result between the knights would be. So, I did a custom battle (normal difficulty) and imagine my surprise when the gothics lost only two men to the chivvies' charge! In the course of the fight, they only lost one more man, slaughtering the chivvies and leaving them to rout with thirteen men. A fluke, I suppose.

[Innocentius]

To be honest, in a fight between these guys



and these



I'd place my money on the former.

[Roark]

Should I face an army of goths and have nothing but chivs, then I would rely on fatigue and charge, and using my speed to combat the goths on a hill with me on top of it. Then you would see a totally different outcome, to be sure.

/KotR

...and as a Goths freak, I would rely on pinning the enemy general with another unit before sending in the Goths to stomp everyone with the confidence that nothing could stop them except maybe Bills or Swiss Pikes.

[Knight of the Rose]

Yeah Roark, they are very nice. Very very nice indeed. The katanks of the late age, slow but heavy. With the support of a decent general they'll propably roll over even Billmen, and certainly so if the Billmen were busy chopping trough peasants.

/KotR

[Roark]

I love 'em. They've got the best defence + armour in the game, and I get no greater satisfaction than watching them demolish even the most firmly established front line. They turn enemy formations into a debacle, which allows swifter units with strong charges to get in there and take advantage of the chaos.

Late Units that have a particularly horrible time against Goths (as in, they vaporise completely):

- CMAA
- Handgunners
- Arquebusiers
- Halberdiers (Even though these guys are armour-piercing! They just don't have the attack strength to make a dent)
- pinned Royals (especially if the RK unit is even slightly under-strength)

I realise that people mostly play campaigns, and therefore don't use Goths, but the dozens of custom battles I've played recently have made me an addict!

The only thing I've found which can really hurt Goths quite badly is the dreaded serpentine. They are just too slow to "dodge" shells, unfortunately.

[LittleGrizzly]

Yeah i knew that, just the questioned had been answered so i wanted to give the answer to an all together different question....

My best guess for a good unit to kill Gothic Knights would be chilvaric foot knights, these guys are mean and armour piercing (not a bit soft and armour piercing like billmen or militia sergants) if your talking about in eqaul values (in custom battles anyway) v0 GK is about a v1 CFK

Edit: funnily enough i have just realised CFK are CK but dismounted, so if the knights get off thier horses they win (assuming the GFK doesn't then use its superior stanima and speed)

[Roark]

Oh, duh. I completely forgot about them. There's nothing that CFK won't kill, except maybe Janissary Heavies, who I ALSO forgot about.

My brain is gone.

[Geezer57]

The Gothic Knight vs. Chiv Knight fight is a lot like the Swiss Armored Pikemen vs. Janissary Heavy Infantry debate - you have to factor in the extra speed of the CK/JHI vs. their opponents to make them effective. Use maneuver with the CK to get in a downhill/flank attack, etc., and the GK are toast. Same with the JHI, they don't go head to head with SAP, but win every time if handled smartly. Use every advantage your unit possess - that way leads to victory.

[Motep]

My battles comprised on 1 on 1, no tactics. I just clicked "attack" and watched the results pile in.