Question for the Keltoi experts.

[Power2the1]

Great posts and info everyone!

@Sarcasm: I did a quick Google Books search. I could not find anything as to the exact whereabouts of Belgida, but some info might point to it's location.

-Sulla enlisted the services of Flaccus in the war he had begun to wage in Spain against the rebel Quintus, and as a result Flaccus later succeeded T.Didius as proconsul in Spain. Didus had ruled so cruelly that the Celtiberians revolted against him at Belgida, trapped all of the senators in their meeting house, and burned it to the ground while they were inside. Flaccus took Belgida by surprise, and executed all who had participated in he burning. The capture of Belgida is mentioned by Orosius (v, 23, 11)
-Spain by Raymond Carr mentions Belgida as being a town in the Jalon Valley

Anything here help ring a bell as to it's whereabouts?

[blitzkrieg80]

as Cmacq mentions, subjective is exactly the case. Raetians are certainly NOT proven to be non-IE... the question remains, how do you define Raetians? I do not think of the Etruscan and related non-IE cultural influx as 'Raetian' even if they came to define the later identity. The true Raetians are possibly from neither group, but such an unknown group certainly shouldn't be considered any way for certain... again, language evidence from the area might indeed prove to be non-IE, but that doesn't mean THEY are Raetians... there are quite a bit of important and very different barbarian peoples who have inhabited the Alps and during the ancient timeline.

Halstatt / La Tene culture has had a very unique and important place in history but it is in many ways not beyond that of any extension of common Indo-European culture. That same Indo-European culture, not yet progressed into Bronze / Iron Age delineations can easily explain any resemblance between names, identities, practices, ect... even specific differences between Satem and Centum language-speakers break down across the 'Borderland.'

as Cmacq has mentioned, echoing what i have found myself in the studies of the area, the Nordic Bronze Age and other cultures have had important influence on the area of Poland thought to be the Venetic Bay but so 'discrete' that the people can't even be called Baltic, Germanic, or Celtic in basis. They could easily have been a Finno-Ugric or undiscovered variety- all we know is that the Goths / Wielbark culture certainly DID become dominant and subsequent cultures are known... Przeworsk is still quite a mystery, despite it's interesting relationship to Oskywie (Wikipedia doesn’t even have an entry on these guys- I guess they're not as fun as fiends of Rome), Lusatian and Pomeranian cultures, besides specific varieties like the Face-urn culture are strongly tied and yet still much undefined in basis beyond the material evidence and unique cultural spread which defines everything in the first place. Much interesting conjecture can come from this but we'll never be able to say much- especially since there is nowhere near the interest as Mediterranean peoples have had prior to habitation of Industrial peoples... some materials and some of the environment doesn't lend itself well to preservation either.

Elmetiacos (sorry I misunderstood your comment on Celticity)- and to others, you might be interested to know that I have suggested for EB2 a less Celtic-like / Centum form of the spelling and terminology of their name on the map, even if Veneti still are the best name for the area at that point in time.

[cmacq]

For Belgida try southeast of Valencia, near Albaida, and east of CV-40. Appian's Spanish Wars provides a slightly different version.



CmacQ

[Moros]

Sorry, I see there have been additions, which I need to read. I may have to edit this?



Scientific world? If one implies archaeology, historiography, and linguistics, I fear very thin on science and much more subjective than objective. Nonetheless, I believe upon occasion I’ve been accused of being part of this so-called scientific world.

Right, only to clarify, I understood what both Moros and Power2the1 wrote, adding that if they (the Veneti) were indeed IE, one may (or must?) entertain the possibility that all three Veneti groups were related, and if so this association would most likely have been forged in the LBA (Late Bronze Age), as this was a period of significant demographic movement (and in theory represent one aspect of the motivation for significant differentiation of the Centum [which I am not proposing]). Indeed, influence by the Celts, yet given the above proposal, it’s important to note that the (Celt) ethnogenesis occurred much later in the EIA (Early [European or Pre-Roman] Iron Age) and (Celt) expansion later still, I believe in the late 5th or early 4th centuries BC. Thus, Celt expansion, assimilation, and influence may possibly further promote the perception that the Polish, Gallic, and Italian Veneti were discrete.

On the other hand, if these Veneti were not IE, there is no need to explore such a proposal.

Hope this clarifies my intent, and may I add this has been thankfully rather tame, for as I said, this subject could quickly turn into a huge can of worms, when proponents for the main actors decide to weight in.

CmacQ

Yeah of course. I never said that the celtic influence they got, which indeed was around the fifth to 4th century BC, meant they had a connection. I was just saying that though they might been influenced, they weren't Celts. So that there was no connection. I guess we just agreed, be it that we confused each other a bit, I guess.

[Elmetiacos]

Elmetiacos (sorry I misunderstood your comment on Celticity)- and to others, you might be interested to know that I have suggested for EB2 a less Celtic-like / Centum form of the spelling and terminology of their name on the map, even if Veneti still are the best name for the area at that point in time.

You didn't - I somehow managed to put that the Polish Veneti were probably Celts, when what I should have said was that they probably weren't Celts. My bad.